Kosovo and Serbia Sign with Trump

[Zaphod222]

2 hours ago, odas said:

Kind of but still different. Some here think that this situation started in the late 90' which is nonsens. Kosovo and Serbia conflict started in the 7th century when serbs arrived to the balkans. It was really bad during Yugoslavija where Kosovars were expelled, killed, tortured, interrogated by the Rankovic regime in Kosovo in the 60' and then again after Titos' death in the eighties and the culmination was in the 90's. You have no idea what Kosovars went thru. Clinton made a stop to it and Bush and Obama continued to help Kosovo. There was a joke back then regarding Palestine and Israel and Kosovo and Serbia: why do palestinians have Israel and Kosovars have Serbia? Because the palestinians picked first. That bad.

Yeah, that is the kind of of Albanian propaganda we were bombarded with during the Kosovo crisis. (The Albanians hired the PR firm Ruddman-Finn to spread that propaganda in the US media, quite successfully.) Fact is, Kosovo had a mixed population, and while under Serbian rule the Albanians claimed oppression, now under Albania rule, the remaining Serbs live under constant threat, and are gradually ethnically cleansed. Great job, Clinton.

[Zaphod222]

1 hour ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Nothing new indeed.

A trumper asks, gets the answer he doesn't like, claims he doesn't understand, believes his denial has the same value as an actual fac 

"Does not like"? Your claim was that Trump does "damage everywhere". And when asked specifically, all you could come up with was

1) that he promotes a race war back home and 2) that his is in Putins pocket.

Both of which is nonsense. 

So, all you have is Trump Derangement Syndrome. Sad.

[toast]

4 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

And yet, he has brokered the beginnings of a reconciliation between Seribia and Kosova ? Something that has eluded more "intelligent" presidents, with better temperaments ? Curious. 

See Helen`s posts related to the issue.

[Helen of Annoy]

Serbian media close to Vučić regime insist that the agreement was not in any way recognition of Kosovo and that Serbia signed the agreement with the US only, not with Kosovo. So it was bilateral with the US, not trilateral with Kosovo too. Kosovo maybe signed with the US too, but it wasn't trilateral. 

They're also trying to deflect from the Kosovo issue with bombastic announcements of unfathomable advantages for Serbia, that will now control investment flow to this part of the world through American orifice that will be opened in Belgrade. Sorry, office. 

In short, they're crapping so much because Vučić is panicking. He wasn't supposed to sign anything with Kosovo, so his loyal journalists are explaining that he did it in the way that he didn't.    

Ah, well, no Nobel for Trump. Yet again.  

 

And Vučić is scheduled for actual adult talks about Kosovo with the EU. I don't think moving any embassies will help him there.  

[odas]

1 hour ago, Zaphod222 said:

Yeah, that is the kind of of Albanian propaganda we were bombarded with during the Kosovo crisis. (The Albanians hired the PR firm Ruddman-Finn to spread that propaganda in the US media, quite successfully.) Fact is, Kosovo had a mixed population, and while under Serbian rule the Albanians claimed oppression, now under Albania rule, the remaining Serbs live under constant threat, and are gradually ethnically cleansed. Great job, Clinton.

Albanian propaganda? You really have a problem reading and/or understanding posts.

[odas]

18 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Serbian media close to Vučić regime insist that the agreement was not in any way recognition of Kosovo and that Serbia signed the agreement with the US only, not with Kosovo. So it was bilateral with the US, not trilateral with Kosovo too. Kosovo maybe signed with the US too, but it wasn't trilateral. 

They're also trying to deflect from the Kosovo issue with bombastic announcements of unfathomable advantages for Serbia, that will now control investment flow to this part of the world through American orifice that will be opened in Belgrade. Sorry, office. 

In short, they're crapping so much because Vučić is panicking. He wasn't supposed to sign anything with Kosovo, so his loyal journalists are explaining that he did it in the way that he didn't.    

Ah, well, no Nobel for Trump. Yet again.  

 

And Vučić is scheduled for actual adult talks about Kosovo with the EU. I don't think moving any embassies will help him there.  

Yup. Medias in Serbia are misinterpreting the agreement. Even the news of Israel recognizing Kosovo is taken down. Will see what happens in EU.

 

[Duke Wellington]

11 minutes ago, odas said:

Albanian propaganda? You really have a problem reading and/or understanding posts.

From what I remember on our news at the time it went like this:

Albanian Kosovans wanted independence, Milosevic went to sort it out diplomatically, the Kosovan police beat up all the Serbs outside cheering him on, then the day after the Yugoslavian civil war started. The war went on for several years, all sides committed war crimes, but Serbs a lot of them.

Then NATO bombed Serbian commander headquarters in Serbia and war making ability, the Serbians retaliated by doing ethnic cleansing in Kosovo, then NATO and Russia sent in troops to stop it all. Milosevic failed to hold onto power, got sent to the Hague for war crimes (as did many from all sides) and died of heart problems before a verdict was reached.

Edited September 5, 2020 by Cookie Monster

[TrumanB]

9 hours ago, odas said:

Serbia and Kosovo at peace is only possible when Kosovo is completely a part of Serbia and ruled by serbs. To blame Clinton for something that is disputed since 1000 years is nonsens. Kosovo Albanians were systematicly killed by Serbs since before Clinton was born.

Of course, Cookie M, as usual, claims to have more knowledge and experience when it comes to the balkans. Oh well.

Where did you get this? I don't think that's true. The conflict is from the 90s.

p.s. no need to answer, I read your previous comment. Anyway, it's wrong.

Edited September 5, 2020 by TrumanB

[TrumanB]

1 hour ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Ah, well, no Nobel for Trump. Yet again.  

And Vučić is scheduled for actual adult talks about Kosovo with the EU. I don't think moving any embassies will help him there.  

Hahaha, no Nobel for Trump, I agree. But still, it's not a big misfortune as Obama got it for no reason. I would say that Nobel Peace prize lost any value.

Vučić completely lost his touch with reality if he ever had it. He sits on four chairs ( EU, USA, China, Russia ) and he plays contradictory moves. We'll see how long will he survive. He'll be checkmated at some point ( I'm using chess terminology because he likes to brag that he was a chess champion as a kid ) but before that he will make more damage to Serbia with his domestic policy.

Edited September 5, 2020 by TrumanB

[TrumanB]

To add some more thoughts. With this sign Serbia put a finger in the eye ( sorry, I don't know English expression for this ) of Russia, China and the muslim world. Russia and China are friendly countries ( with China we have established strong economic ties in past few years and with some muslim countries such as Iran and UAE we also have good relations ). And Vučić acts like the idiot by signing any paper given.

This picture tells a lot:

On the first picture we can see former ( and late unfortunately ) Serbian prime minister Đinđić about 18 years ago talking to president Bush. Based on his position in room and body language you can see that he has even status to the most powerful man on planet of that time.

On the bottom one we see little scared pupil ( although he is close to 2m tall ) who receives orders/lessons from president Trump. I'm wondering how is it possible that after almost two decades our position deteriorated and we are led by this ugly character...

and in this scene it looks like he didn't know what he signed: https://mobile.twitter.com/PaoloStefanini5/status/1302233149074792450

Edited September 6, 2020 by TrumanB

[Helen of Annoy]

@TrumanB

I think this charade was orchestrated by Russia too. They know how to muddy the waters, just because one particular detail looks against their interest, doesn't mean the whole picture is not in their interest. Russians are the only ones who would make Vučić dance to Trump's tune. They did give Trump that bizarre embassy moving to please his evangelicals, but whole point was Serbia having an "agreement" with Kosovo before there was the agreement with both parties and the EU. 

Of course, an agreement that is promptly "explained" as no agreement obviously has no value. Which is the point. Serbia has fig leaf in form of an agreement with Kosovo that consists of having no direct agreement with Kosovo, with Trump no less to guarantee for its functioning, nothing's changed. 

You're right, in my opinion, Vučić is attempting to sit at too many chairs at once. It can't end well. 

And losing Đinđić was a tragedy of historic proportions. Which is exactly why he was murdered. Constructive, wise, Serbia of the future was decapitated with his murder. Such a damn shame. 

 

The oppression of Albanians in ex-Yu was true. It's was public secret. We were all swearing on national unity and brotherhood, but we were all quietly taught to stay away from Albanians from Kosovo, because they are all, by their ethnicity alone, doomed to be connected with anti-state, anti-revolutionary and anti-Christian organizations. 

Bizarre as it sounds, but at the same time they were the bad guys for being against particular brand of communism (supposedly favouring Albanian over Yugoslavian communist party), against any communism (supposedly Islamists) and against Christianity (not being Christian, though it was more Slavic supremacy despising non-Slavic genome and culture). 

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandar_Ranković

Ranković started as anti-fascist fighter and then evolved - or devolved - into Serbian nationalist who attempted to swing at Tito. It ended his career. He was in charge of Kosovo in 1960's and his actions against Kosovar population were legendary for cruelty. The unofficial slogan was "Zaoravati žive u njive." (To plow them still alive into the fields.)

Discrimination against Albanians was real. I remember it. I'm not saying the former state was supposed to let any real iredentisti secede or conduct terror against non-Albanians, but the legitimate actions against actual rebellion turned into oppression of all Albanians. A friend of mine ended up being military police in Kosovo in the late 1980's. Another was military border guard, late 1980's too, at Albanian border. Their testimonies, which I heard from them privately, meaning without any censoring, while they were still very fresh, leave no doubt in my mind that "we" - Slavic people back then the citizens of the same state - really did conduct in classic supremacist fashion. It fired back, naturally. 

 

So, what now? 

The history can't be changed. The better we know the exact details, not the excuses each of our sides has for everyday use, the wiser decisions we can make. 

We don't have to admit we know the exact truth, but we must know it. Each of us has to know about the mistakes of their own side, because if they're hidden from us, they turn into landmines.

What we should seek and start from are the common interests. Personally, we all want the same. That includes respect for our ancestors and their sacrifice. We have to somehow manage to understand that we share that too, we share the loss and remembrance, though it was our ancestors against each other. But the personal loss felt the same. 

If we ever manage to do that, to honestly realize we want the same, no various little turds will be able to hide their plundering and incompetence behind ultra-nationalist phrases. 

[Helen of Annoy]

Oh. My. God.

Vučić didn't know what he was signing. Or had no choice so this is the moment he realized it's not just a nightmare.    

 

[TrumanB]

Yes, I posted that twitter link. He had no idea what he was doing. I still don't see connection with Russia. I hardly believe that they have such a big influence on Trump. I think it's bias against Russia.

Murder of Đinđić was tragedy and probably ended chance that Serbia will become a democratic country. There is also a theory that his assassination was supported from the outside but we'll probably never know that.

Regarding Kosovo Albanians their number significantly increased in past 100 years during that so called oppression. They are predominant and have a tendency to spread. The next move may be uniting Kosovo with Albania and some other parts of Balkans where they are a majority. What to do then? And I'm not anti-Albanian at all, I spent my vacation this August there. Just looking from different perspectives I don't think that they will be satisfied with the independence of Kosovo.

Edited September 6, 2020 by TrumanB

[+and-then]

On 9/5/2020 at 5:58 AM, Zaphod222 said:

That is an empty media talking point. What "damage" specifically has he done in your mind?

And again, stopping the stupid illegal foreign wars is not important for your?

I find it to be truly amazing that Aunty, living halfway around the world, would be so invested in the hate for this man.  It really IS some kind of mental disorder.

[Helen of Annoy]

1 hour ago, TrumanB said:

Yes, I posted that twitter link. He had no idea what he was doing. I still don't see connection with Russia. I hardly believe that they have such a big influence on Trump. I think it's bias against Russia.

Sorry, I didn't catch it. I turn a bit more insane than I normally am when I'm reminded of the past. 

I see Putin, to be precise, not Russia in general, pulling Trump's strings. He's their asset probably since his first bankruptcy. Way back to the still existing USSR. Of course, we'll have to wait for few more months for the whole truth to pop out in the open. It will be pure poetry. 

And it's quite an accomplishment for Russia. They had no idea what jackpot they've hit with purchasing that particular American. 

 

1 hour ago, TrumanB said:

Murder of Đinđić was tragedy and probably ended chance that Serbia will become a democratic country. There is also a theory that his assassination was supported from the outside but we'll probably never know that.

It's very plausible theory - maybe we will even know one day. If that particular option that assisted his assassination loses influence. 

And don't ever believe it ended Serbian chances for democracy. Things change, sometimes overnight. You'll live to see true democracy and complain about it too  

 

1 hour ago, TrumanB said:

Regarding Kosovo Albanians their number significantly increased in past 100 years during that so called oppression. They are predominant and have a tendency to spread. The next move may be uniting Kosovo with Albania and some other parts of Balkans where they are a majority. What to do then? And I'm not anti-Albanian at all, I spent my vacation this August there. Just looking from different perspectives I don't think that they will be satisfied with the independence of Kosovo.

I know you're not anti-Albanian or anti-anybody. I also know that Serbs had their victims. I do think of you too when I say graves must be respected. And cultural heritage too. I know Serbs call Kosovo the cradle of Serbhood. It may sound funny and archaic to the westerners, but I do understand the importance of heritage. And Serbs have equal rights to live in Kosovo. 

Our opinion is different about the intensity of troubles in the past for particular nations, but I believe we agree about the rights to future for everyone. 

The hard part is how to calm things down from the boiling point to the nicely warm atmosphere where neither Kosovars nor Serbs have to worry about discrimination and open conflicts. 

It sounds impossible, to have independent Kosovo and Serbs satisfied. 

To be honest, Kosovo is independent. I know, it's like telling me Knin is independent. *head explodes* That's why I said that superhuman patience is needed. The better the cooperation, the greater the chances Kosovo authorities will have to guarantee rights for Serbs too. 

Years ago I was talking to a Russian guy about the population growth issue in Kosovo and I'll tell you the same I told him: it's our, Slavic, problem that we're dying out. It's not the fault of others, who truly do become more numerous.

We've got no right to cut their numbers down. Who knows why we're eradicating ourselves. I'll start babbling about highly irrational stuff if I even try making any theories about that. 

It comes down to the fact that we are dying nations. It doesn't look reversible. We simply don't breed anymore. We will disappear. I'd rather be remembered as someone kind who used to live here and is now missed, someone whose tradition will be gladly built into the coming way of life, than someone who tried to mass murder their way out of historic process.        

[Zaphod222]

Just now, Helen of Annoy said:

I see Putin, to be precise, not Russia in general, pulling Trump's strings.

I see that you said that before. And I see that is one of the fake media talking points.

However, I have NOT seen you give any specific examples where Trump acted in Putins interest. Can you give us one, instead of just repeating the media slogan?

You remember, I gave you several examples where Trump acted AGAINST Putins interests. I don´t see how that fits with the string pulling.

 

[Helen of Annoy]

6 minutes ago, and then said:

I find it to be truly amazing that Aunty, living halfway around the world, would be so invested in the hate for this man.  It really IS some kind of mental disorder.

I don't hate the poor guy. I find him absurdly ridiculous and thoroughly repulsive but I'm aware he's just a pawn in immensely more capable hands. 

This latest hilarious catastrophe he managed to produce might even accidentally result in positive changes for this part of the world. Due to the very visible fact that Vučić was essentially tricked into signing something he didn't know he's signing, all the remnants of American credibility are irreparably destroyed in this part of the world. It means turning to the EU for mediating European problems, without any further possibility that some naive soul will take American meddling seriously. 

You've died diplomatic death at the moment Vučić started panicky digging through papers, wondering is he the first in history to be defrauded while signing an international agreement. Yes, he is. No shame on his part, it all belongs to the fraudster Trump.  

[TrumanB]

11 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

Our opinion is different about the intensity of troubles in the past for particular nations, but I believe we agree about the rights to future for everyone. 

   

I have no probem with different opinions about the past, I have a problem with the vision of future. Do you have any solution for Greater Albania? Maybe not tomorrow, but in 15-20 years they will try to unite Kosovo, Albania, southern parts of Serbia, Macedonia, Montenegro...Do you have a solution to that? It's easy to advocate human rights, what is hard is to solve real problems. Because they will not stop, it's not in their mentality. They are not a democratic nation and have a tribal mentality.

And I hope that American military base Bondsteel will stay on Kosovo as it gives some protection to Serbian minority.

 

Regarding Russia...I still don't see how are they pulling Trump's strings. I'm not his fanboy but find this idea to be a conspiracy theory.

Edited September 6, 2020 by TrumanB

[Zaphod222]

20 hours ago, odas said:

The majority in the US is NOT behind Trump. 

The British betting sites they it is. And I think the punters have a lot more credibility than the opinion polls.

[Helen of Annoy]

6 minutes ago, TrumanB said:

I have no probem with different opinions about the past, I have a problem with the vision of future. Do you have any solution for Greater Albania? Maybe not tomorrow, but in 15-20 years they will try to unite Kosovo, Albania, southern parts of Serbia, Macedonia, Montenegro...Do you have a solution to that? It's easy to advocate human rights, what is hard is to solve real problems. Because they will not stop, it's not in their mentality. They are not a democratic nation.

And I hope that American military base Bondsteel will stay on Kosovo as it gives some protection to Serbian minority.

See the part of my rambling about us being dying nations. 

Either we build ourselves into the coming world, which obviously won't be as we imagine perfection, either we'll try mass murdering it to seem more to our taste. 

There are two solutions: good relations, so that our grandchildren can go extinct in peace - or we go with a bang. 

 

To make it clear, I'm not a good person and it's very possible to talk me into bang sort of thing. But I'm aware we don't really have the right to ask everyone else to die out with us. If we die fighting for nationalist reasons, that are not direct defence, we die as criminals. 

 

 

Regarding the base, I hope so too. Oddly enough, so do Albanians. If the US gets a sane president soon, no one has to worry about that. If it doesn't, do not mention it because Trump could shut it down just to show Putin how low he's ready to fall. 

[TrumanB]

8 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

 No shame on his part, it all belongs to the fraudster Trump.  

Well, there is a big shame on his part. He is an amateur and mentally unstable person ( I'm talking about Vučić, not Trump this time lol ). What Trump did is that he injected things that are important for USA and Israel. Did you know that one of agreements is that Serbia and Kosovo should recognize LGBT rights? What does it have to do with our relations? And it doesn't look very Republican neither.

[TrumanB]

2 minutes ago, Helen of Annoy said:

See the part of my rambling about us being dying nations. 

Either we build ourselves into the coming world, which obviously won't be as we imagine perfection, either we'll try mass murdering it to seem more to our taste. 

There are two solutions: good relations, so that our grandchildren can go extinct in peace - or we go with a bang.

In other words, you don't really have the solution. You can't have good relations with a group ( Albanians in this case ) that want parts of several different countries. It's not possible. As I said before, they have a tribal mentality. They won't  stop with their ambitions because you want to be nice to them. What is a solution from Serbian part imho is: 1. Never to recognize the independence of Kosovo although Albanians have all he power there 2. Develop good relations with countries such as China and Russia to prevent this damaging idea with all diplomatic power that they have.

[Helen of Annoy]

5 minutes ago, TrumanB said:

Well, there is a big shame on his part. He is an amateur and mentally unstable person ( I'm talking about Vučić, not Trump this time lol ). What Trump did is that he injected things that are important for USA and Israel. Did you know that one of agreements is that Serbia and Kosovo should recognize LGBT rights? What does it have to do with our relations? And it doesn't look very Republican neither.

Future generations simply won't believe it when they read books and watch films about this period in history. 

It seems everyone who was passing through White House added something to that contradictory laundry list Vučić and Hoti signed, including a gay delivery guy or who knows who else    

[Helen of Annoy]

2 minutes ago, TrumanB said:

In other words, you don't really have the solution. You can't have good relations with a group ( Albanians in this case ) that want parts of several different countries. It's not possible. As I said before, they have a tribal mentality. They won't  stop with their ambitions because you want to be nice to them. What is a solution from Serbian part imho is: 1. Never to recognize the independence of Kosovo although Albanians have all he power there 2. Develop good relations with countries such as China and Russia to prevent this damaging idea with all diplomatic power that they have.

I won't tell you that you've got too bad opinion of Albanians, because I used to have too bad opinion of certain nations too. I got better  

 

You can have 1. if you successfully build 2. Add the EU too and the situation will be unrecognizable. In the good sort of way, I know we're all used to unrecognizably worse. 

You will be able to recognize Kosovo once you've got palpable guarantees it can't damage your integrity or discriminate against Serbs in Kosovo. 

I know it sounds like never, but never say never. The world is changing at amazing speed. 

[TrumanB]

1 minute ago, Helen of Annoy said:

I won't tell you that you've got too bad opinion of Albanians, because I used to have too bad opinion of certain nations too. I got better  

 

You can have 1. if you successfully build 2. Add the EU too and the situation will be unrecognizable. In the good sort of way, I know we're all used to unrecognizably worse. 

You will be able to recognize Kosovo once you've got palpable guarantees it can't damage your integrity or discriminate against Serbs in Kosovo. 

I know it sounds like never, but never say never. The world is changing at amazing speed. 

I actually don't have a bad opinion of Albanians from Albania. They are mostly friendly and open. And they speak italian which I like a lot. Albanians from Kosovo are a bit different ( they origin from a different tribe than those from Albania and Montenegro ). But whatever that I think of them their political agenda is called Greater Albania. That's Rama's agenda. Not sure that I understand these two points. Based on information that I have from Brussels Serbia will never become EU member. Recognizing Kosovo won't change that. Only guarantees that Serbs won't be discriminated is not enough.