China

[Tatetopa]

On 9/20/2020 at 7:33 AM, WVK said:

The American elite’s financial relationship with China is the key to understanding what’s been happening in America the past four years. Any president, Democrat or Republican, who took on China would have been targeted by the China Class. Because it was Trump flying the Republican banner who sided with America’s working men and women,

Better do some more research.  Those American China Class or whatever you call them are free enterprise capitalist successful businessman. They own and control the companies that many of us work for.   They have the right under our capitalist system to take those businesses anywhere they want.   You are not advocating socialism or communism are you?  Workers don't own those companies, they don't get to decide.

Donald Trump did not side with working people.  He manufactures stuff in China too and so does Ivanka.  They do it for the same reason, cheap labor.  His trade war was a bust.

If you want to keep jobs in America, stop shopping at Walmart and support small companies.  Stop buying cheap Chinese junk.  That is how free American consumers express their likes and dislikes by where they buy. 

Man I hate to think free market Republicans want the  government to control our industries.

[SHaYap]

"freedom" of speech... 

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timesofindia.indiatimes.com › a...

Some 3,500 US companies sue over Donald Trump-imposed Chinese ...

2 days ago · TimesPoints. 80. 0 Added. Keep reading, keep earning TimesPoints!! Know More. US President Donald Trump ( ...

 

finance.yahoo.com

Some 3500 US companies sue over Trump-imposed Chinese tariffs

2 days ago · About 3500 U.S. companies, including Tesla Inc, Ford Motor Co, Target Corp , Walgreen Co and Home Depot ...

 

Top stories

 

 

 

Some 3,500 US companies sue over Donald Trump-imposed Chinese tariffs

1 day ago

 

finance.yahoo.com

Some 3500 US companies sue over Trump-imposed Chinese tariffs

2 days ago · The legal challenges from a wide variety of companies argue the Trump administration failed to impose tariffs ..

~

[Aroundthecorner]

Its not China its Chiii  Na

[WVK]

12 hours ago, Tatetopa said:

Better do some more research.  Those American China Class or whatever you call them are free enterprise capitalist successful businessman. They own and control the companies that many of us work for.   They have the right under our capitalist system to take those businesses anywhere they want.   You are not advocating socialism or communism are you?  Workers don't own those companies, they don't get to decide.

Donald Trump did not side with working people.  He manufactures stuff in China too and so does Ivanka.  They do it for the same reason, cheap labor.  His trade war was a bust.

If you want to keep jobs in America, stop shopping at Walmart and support small companies.  Stop buying cheap Chinese junk.  That is how free American consumers express their likes and dislikes by where they buy. 

Man I hate to think free market Republicans want the  government to control our industries.

I didn't write that. This is the article it's from:
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/americas-china-class-fights-trump

[Horta]

On 9/9/2020 at 11:46 AM, docyabut2 said:

We know the US have problems with China for years after the Gang of Four that suppress their people,that demolish all their arts. so how do we deal with them when they have the biggest army in the world. so we gave them all our jobs, they wanted to take over our country, now trump is trying to stop all the trades that ,they take all of our money, remember everything you buy is from China, now China is building a bigger Army.  So how do we deal with them?       

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China

Not sure what your problem is. China has it's own share of problems, but what has it done to the US (apart from make its corporations/executives obscenely wealthy)? They're just better at economics than the west, and have recently managed the greatest economic feat in history (lifting around 700-800 million people out of poverty). It's not their fault western corporations have been exploiting the favourable conditions and cheap labour. That's capitalism for you and those manufacturing jobs aren't going back to the US (even if they leave China). Unlike the US, they don't have a history of conflict abroad to enforce their economic aims on countries either. They seem to have done well without the blockades, inciting coups, assassinations, funding civil wars or invasions.

They'll soon pass the US economically (as will India eventually) and have at least set a goal of eradicating poverty by 2050. A worthy goal. You will find that western countries such as the US will always have a class of working poor, unemployment and certain level of poverty. When was the last time you heard anyone say they wanted to eradicate it?

China also have the goal of zero net carbon emissions by 2060 (?). That's something at least. Contrast this to current US leadership who consider global warming to be a hoax lol.

It's worth watching how and where China are investing. It seems they won't really need the west eventually (although the west will probably still need them). 

Read a piece by James Hansen a while back where he noticed China has been buying lands around the world that, as the predictions for climate change eventuates and much arable land becomes more arid, will be some of the best farming lands on the planet. They have been buying a lot of water rites too. They really do plan ahead, unlike western politicians who seem to ignore science.

ps. China can't match the US militarily (though they have a bigger navy). Once again the way they have planned things, they don't need to match the US. Though they are in control of the South China Sea which is a very strategic waterway and certain trade routes, they are making their region very secure. The US is no longer in control/can no longer dominate this region and they know that they would lose a conflict there if one started. All empire wane eventually. The US will be no different.

[Myles]

54 minutes ago, Horta said:

 

They'll soon pass the US economically (as will India eventually) and have at least set a goal of eradicating poverty by 2050. A worthy goal. You will find that western countries such as the US will always have a class of working poor, unemployment and certain level of poverty. When was the last time you heard anyone say they wanted to eradicate it?

China also have the goal of zero net carbon emissions by 2060 (?). That's something at least. Contrast this to current US leadership who consider global warming to be a hoax lol.

 

Are you sure that's not all just propaganda?   China is known to have horrid working conditions and pay in many cases.   

They are also building more coal power plants than any other country.  

[spartan max2]

2 hours ago, Horta said:

They'll soon pass the US economically (as will India eventually) and have at least set a goal of eradicating poverty by 2050

Eh, will end up like the U.S war on Poverty in the 60's.

There will always be a lower class.

[spartan max2]

3 hours ago, Horta said:

but what has it done to the US (apart from make its corporations/executives obscenely wealthy)? They're just better at economics than the west, 

The CCP steals from the entire world basically.

Theft of intellectual property through hacking and forcing all foreign businesses operating in the country to have to be joint venture chinese owned.

If better at economics means stealing and exploiting its own people then sure.

And that's not counting what more recently put them in the public's eye. The CCP trying to censor aboard through censoring hollywood movies, video games, students, etc.

Trying to embargo Austrailia for not doing what they want. Stealing from the south China Sea.

China, in its current iteration, is a global threat to anyone who does not believe in totalitarian governments.

You buy too much into the CCP propaganda. State controlled media with insanely aggressive censorship and oppression of dissidents.

The goal to have clean energy is of course good. But words really mean nonething. Actions matter.

 

Edit: 

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economic feat in history (lifting around 700-800 million people out of poverty)

Look at any graph and you will see that globally poverty and world hunger have decreased the past couple decades. This is due to globalism. The only part the CCP played in it was to finally stop being backwards and let globalism happen in the 70's by opening their county up to international trade. 

Edited October 7, 2020 by spartan max2

[Tatetopa]

51 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Eh, will end up like the U.S war on Poverty in the 60's.

There will always be a lower class.

That may prove to be a mindset rather than a fact.  Guess we will see.

[spartan max2]

26 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

That may prove to be a mindset rather than a fact.  Guess we will see.

I mean economically speaking unless everyone has the same then someone will have more. If someone has more then the means someone has less lol.

The person with less will always be the "lower class". 

I don't see how there is any other possiblity. If people aren't the same then they are different. The only two states of existence.

Edited October 7, 2020 by spartan max2

[Tatetopa]

3 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

mean economically speaking unless everyone has the same then someone will have more. If someone has more then the means someone has less lol.

The person with less will always be the "lower class". 

I don't see how there is any other possiblity. If people aren't the same then they are different. The only two states of existence.

Everyone does not need to have the same amount of money or possessions.  It would be nice if the people on the bottom have sufficient for healthy survival.

You are the one, or we are the ones who rank people by their possessions  and then assign demarcation lines  along that spectrum and call them class.

You could rank people on how smart they are.

You could rank people on what we deem are admirable qualities.

You could rank people on height.  I could decide that everybody above my height  of 6'5" is elite and deserves special treatment and deference, and everybody below 6'3" is low class and can be disregarded.  

None of those schemes would fully map onto possessions. 

Admittedly, height is more arbitrary than wealth.  What does it mean for someone's expectations, rights, and treatment if you consider them "lower class"?

[spartan max2]

1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

Everyone does not need to have the same amount of money or possessions.  It would be nice if the people on the bottom have sufficient for healthy survival.

You are the one, or we are the ones who rank people by their possessions  and then assign demarcation lines  along that spectrum and call them class.

You could rank people on how smart they are.

You could rank people on what we deem are admirable qualities.

You could rank people on height.  I could decide that everybody above my height  of 6'5" is elite and deserves special treatment and deference, and everybody below 6'3" is low class and can be disregarded.  

None of those schemes would fully map onto possessions. 

Admittedly, height is more arbitrary than wealth.  What does it mean for someone's expectations, rights, and treatment if you consider them "lower class"?

What nonsense is this? Lol

I'm not ranking people's value as people I'm telling you that factually there will always be people who make less money then other people unless everyone makes the exact same. That is unavoidable. 

No one disagrees with you that people shouldn't starve to death dude.

[Golden Duck]

7 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

The CCP steals from the entire world basically.

Theft of intellectual property through hacking and forcing all foreign businesses operating in the country to have to be joint venture chinese owned.

If better at economics means stealing and exploiting its own people then sure.

And that's not counting what more recently put them in the public's eye. The CCP trying to censor aboard through censoring hollywood movies, video games, students, etc.

Trying to embargo Austrailia for not doing what they want. Stealing from the south China Sea.

China, in its current iteration, is a global threat to anyone who does not believe in totalitarian governments.

You buy too much into the CCP propaganda. State controlled media with insanely aggressive censorship and oppression of dissidents.

The goal to have clean energy is of course good. But words really mean nonething. Actions matter.

 

Edit: 

Look at any graph and you will see that globally poverty and world hunger have decreased the past couple decades. This is due to globalism. The only part the CCP played in it was to finally stop being backwards and let globalism happen in the 70's by opening their county up to international trade. 

I don't think you need to moralise about totalitarian governments.  A few years ago a Japanese student was telling me about her concern that China was buying agricultural land in her home country.  Food security is not a moral or ideological concern.

With the predicted energy shortages you wonder if there is a price point for Australia's large uranium deposits.  It's a conspiracy theory that's not hard to lean into.

China's dumping measures against Australia seems unfounded. There may some conflation of bushfire recovery funds with countervailing.  But, to the disinterested is really that dissimilar to gay cake at a macro level?

Greater self-sufficiency is one hope, for sinophobics, to come from this pandemic.

[Tatetopa]

3 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

'm not ranking people's value as people I'm telling you that factually there will always be people who make less money then other people unless everyone makes the exact same. That is unavoidable. 

No one disagrees with you that people shouldn't starve to death dude.

OK, good.  Yes there will always be people with less money.

I was objecting to your tag of "Lower Class" Is that not ranking people's value?   I think that is a value judgement far beyond how much money a person has.  

 

[Horta]

On 10/8/2020 at 3:58 AM, Myles said:

Are you sure that's not all just propaganda?   China is known to have horrid working conditions and pay in many cases.   

They are also building more coal power plants than any other country.  

Of course, that's why capitalists/corporations flocked to it originally, to exploit the conditions. But it's continually getting better with a larger middle class with rising standards and working conditions. As it does China's economy will slow down to an extent, as capitalism seeks new emerging economies to exploit. It's a mistake to think this doesn't also happen in the US though, it has a sordid history of worker exploitation. I think you might simply be looking for the worst in China and overlooking things a lot closer to you.

Have a look where China were in the seventies, compared to now.

China have the stated goal through the Paris agreement of peak carbon emissions by 2030 and neutrality by 2050 (not 2060 as originally posted). Though it's worth being sceptical of all politicians wherever they are and their "goals". We don't have to be sceptical of US politicians though as we know their thoughts, they have no goals because it It's a hoax.

The point though is that Chinese leaders are not as anti intellectual and allergic to science as those that proliferate in the west and seem to have contingency plans for the natural disasters that will increase as the century rolls on. The pandemic is a practice run for the problems that are going to accelerate as this century progresses. How did the US fare? I seem to remember international piracy from (soon to be former) close allies, bidding wars for ppe (hey, that's capitalism), the worst health care system in the developed world, people being sacked for requesting a safe workplace (speaking of working conditions) and the largest death toll of anywhere on earth.

Those blaming Trump (despite the incompetence) are missing the point. The US will never be prepared for things that can't be corporatised with shareholder profits and large exec bonuses. Pandemic/ disaster preparedness is not a great investment strategy. The government could do it, but that would be "socialism" and one step away from a Stalinist dictatorship or something....

[Horta]

On 10/8/2020 at 5:44 AM, spartan max2 said:

Eh, will end up like the U.S war on Poverty in the 60's.

There will always be a lower class.

Not disagreeing that there will always be a lower class but that wasn't the point, which was (originally) about poverty. Poverty should never be an acceptable "class" in any modernised society simply because of some ideology, or because it is said (brainwashing) that it is inevitable. 

Why write the Chinese off so quickly, they're not the US of the '60s, they have been nothing short of an economic miracle as it is? 

 

Edited October 9, 2020 by Horta

[spartan max2]

5 hours ago, Horta said:

Why write the Chinese off so quickly, they're not the US of the '60s, they have been nothing short of an economic miracle as it is? 

I guess I'm confused why you think China is an economic miracle??

Their economy and standard of living increased because they finally allowed international trade. Before allowing international trade state controlled policies were starving them. Nonething special or unique about that. 

If you think China is an economic miracle then what do you think other nations should mimic to also be "economic miracles". Forcing foreign companies to be part owned by your own nation? Would be interesting to have every nation doing that to each other.

I write it off because many nations have had wars on poverty. It has never worked. I'm sure at the end of it they will declare success just by changing metrics. It will always be a relative point. Just how being in poverty in the U.S and France look different then being in poverty in Columbia or China.

Edited October 9, 2020 by spartan max2

[Myles]

7 hours ago, Horta said:

Of course, that's why capitalists/corporations flocked to it originally, to exploit the conditions. But it's continually getting better with a larger middle class with rising standards and working conditions. As it does China's economy will slow down to an extent, as capitalism seeks new emerging economies to exploit. It's a mistake to think this doesn't also happen in the US though, it has a sordid history of worker exploitation. I think you might simply be looking for the worst in China and overlooking things a lot closer to you.

Have a look where China were in the seventies, compared to now.

China have the stated goal through the Paris agreement of peak carbon emissions by 2030 and neutrality by 2050 (not 2060 as originally posted). Though it's worth being sceptical of all politicians wherever they are and their "goals". We don't have to be sceptical of US politicians though as we know their thoughts, they have no goals because it It's a hoax.

 

Hard to take that seriously when they are planning to build 300 coal powered power plants in the 2020's.    

[SHaYap]

49 minutes ago, Myles said:

Hard to take that seriously when they are planning to build 300 coal powered power plants in the 2020's.    

Guess who tore up the Kyoto Protocol and scorched the Paris Agreement? 

Meanwhile, a lesson in sustainability... 

Quote

www.bloomberg.com › articles

China's 40-Year, Billion-Tree Project Is a Lesson for the World ...

13 Sep 2020 — Every spring, government officials, teachers, students, and company employees go on group tree-planting trips ...

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[Horta]

On 10/9/2020 at 11:39 PM, spartan max2 said:

I guess I'm confused why you think China is an economic miracle??

So your'e not impressed that a nation can lift around 2.5 times the total current population of the US (around 13% of the worlds population) of it's citizens out of extreme poverty in around 35 yrs? Wasn't talking about literal miracles (they don't exist) but metaphorically. So you don't think it's special because of all the other times that's happened lol...?

Quote

Their economy and standard of living increased because they finally allowed international trade. Before allowing international trade state controlled policies were starving them. Nonething special or unique about that. 

If you think China is an economic miracle then what do you think other nations should mimic to also be "economic miracles". Forcing foreign companies to be part owned by your own nation? Would be interesting to have every nation doing that to each other.

If countries embraced genuine democracy instead of the faux democratic oligarchies that seem to predominate, they might be able to take poverty seriously.

The Chinese have been clever getting western companies to share technology (and have since surpassed them in many ways), bribed won over politicians (not China's fault they are corrupt), have invested strategically especially in emerging countries infrastructure and in ways that will help them control trade routes (some call it "debt trapping").... it's been well planned out.

It seems there's not really much the west can do economically (US corporations still love China), strategically, militarily or trade-wise that is going to stop China soon becoming the worlds largest economy. This might be bigger than you think. It hasn't happened since WW2 when the US imposed it's systems on what was basically a war ravaged world and has maintained dominance and a huge share of wealth via its military ever since. With other nations that will also increase economically and dominate their region, the US is going to be just another regional power later this century, it's the beginning of a changing of the guard so to speak. The beginning of the end of western domination.

Quote

I write it off because many nations have had wars on poverty. It has never worked. I'm sure at the end of it they will declare success just by changing metrics. It will always be a relative point. Just how being in poverty in the U.S and France look different then being in poverty in Columbia or China.

China could be very very different. For starters it has positioned itself in a way that the west probably can't tear it down like it has to other countries (USSR for example). It also doesn't have the intrinsic problems of democracies where politicians are in only for a short term and the next lot hobble or simply roll back policies of those who were in before. It isn't necessarily bound domestically by western economics that basically assures a certain amount of unemployment and poverty. It also doesn't have to please its corporate lobbyists to get elected. In fact some in the US corporations have vested interest in keeping poverty and corresponding social conditions as they have found ways of monetising it.

China at least has the possibility of implementing the necessary social and economic changes necessary and following them through till 2050 or longer. It might not happen and there are all sorts of things that could halt it, but it is a worthy goal at least.

 

[SHaYap]

The real reason why Trump get to play President... 

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www.thebalance.com › who-owns-t...

Who Owns the U.S. National Debt? How Much Is Owed? - The Balance

Public Debt · Foreign: $6.78 trillion (in May 2020, Japan owned $1.26 trillion and China owned $1.08 trillion of U.S. debt, which is more than a ...

 

---

www.thebalance.com › u-s-debt-to-...

U.S. Debt to China: How Much, Reasons, What Could Happen

The U.S. owes $1.07 trillion to China, making it the second-largest foreign lender. ... The U.S. debt to China was $1.07 trillion in June 2020.

 

www.statista.com › statistics › major...

• Major foreign holders of U.S. treasury securities 2020 | Statista

7 Sep 2020 — This statistic shows major foreign holders of US treasury debt as of June 2020. At this time, Japan held treasury securities ...

 

 

 

www.treasury.gov › tic › Pages › ex...

U.S. Gross External Debt - Treasury

30 Sep 2020 — Revisions include the results of the Survey of Foreign Holdings of U.S. Securities at the end of the previous June. DEBT

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[spartan max2]

38 minutes ago, Horta said:

So your'e not impressed that a nation can lift around 2.5 times the total current population of the US (around 13% of the worlds population) of it's citizens out of extreme poverty in around 35 yrs? Wasn't talking about literal miracles (they don't exist) but metaphorically. So you don't think it's special because of all the other times that's happened lol...?

I'm glad more people are out of poverty but no I'm not impressed that the CCP finally stopped isolation and allowed international trade. All the CCP did was to finally stop getting in the way, that's not impressive. 

 

Quote

The Chinese have been clever getting western companies to share technology (and have since surpassed them in many ways), 

As I asked you before, if you believe stealing technology by forcing forgien companies to give joint ownship to China (and all the hacking) is the most effective, and apprently praiseworthy method, then should the U.S and other nations do the same to all Chinese companies. As a "clever way" to take their technology?

You should support all nations doing the same to China otherwise you bias is clearly showing.

 

I also couldn't help but notice the double standards with:

Quote

have invested strategically especially in emerging countries infrastructure and in ways that will help them control trade routes (some call it "debt trapping").... it's been well planned out.

 And

Quote

It hasn't happened since WW2 when the US imposed it's systems on what was basically a war ravaged world and has maintained dominance and a huge share of wealth via its military.

Praiseworthy, clever, morally right when China uses economics to influence nations.

When the U.S uses aides, economics, and loans to influence nations it's bad, imperalistic, and evil .

 

 

I'm mostly concerned about your soft idolization of authoritarianism. I guess all nations should censor their media to death and opresse dissidents, so we can create an imagine free from criticism. Haha. 

 

Edited October 11, 2020 by spartan max2

[Horta]

1 hour ago, spartan max2 said:

I'm glad more people are out of poverty but no I'm not impressed that the CCP finally stopped isolation and allowed international trade. All the CCP did was to finally stop getting in the way, that's not impressive. 

That's your take on it.

Quote

As I asked you before, if you believe stealing technology by forcing forgien companies to give joint ownship to China (and all the hacking) is the most effective, and apprently praiseworthy method, then should the U.S and other nations do the same to all Chinese companies. As a "clever way" to take their technology?

You should support all nations doing the same to China otherwise you bias is clearly showing.

Lol.

China didn't force anyone to do anything. Companies gave it up willingly for profit. It's called corporate greed. That's capitalism.

If other nations can do it, why not, because I can pretty much assure you that if they could, they would (and probably do in some instances).

US imperialism has traditionally used blockades to starve countries into submission, financed coups, sent in goon squads to train insurgents, assassinations, had democratically elected governments overthrown and replaced with dictators, started civil wars or when favourable (if there's no great opposition) directly invaded sovereign nations and overthrow governments. Which method do you think is preferable?

Quote

I also couldn't help but notice the double standards with:

What double standard? That western critics call their negotiation style "debt trapping" in some instances? Once again no force is used, if they can negotiate those conditions, more power to them. This is very different to controlling world trade and economics by force or threats of force. 

Quote

Praiseworthy, clever, morally right when China uses economics to influence nations.

When the U.S uses aides, economics, and loans to influence nations it's bad, imperalistic, and evil .

If and when the US actually adopts that strategy it would be good.

The foreign coups, civil wars, assassinations and invasions not so good.

Quote

I'm mostly concerned about your soft idolization of authoritarianism. I guess all nations should censor their media to death and opresse dissidents, so we can create an imagine free from criticism. Haha. 

Idolisation? lol

I dislike all governments and the thing that spoils politics itself is always politicians. At best they are to be tolerated grudgingly as a necessary evil. To begin with, doesn't it ever make you wonder what sort of person craves power and authority over others? Douglass Adams was right, politics always seems to attract the last sort of people you would ever want as politicians.

I'm certainly no fan of totalitarianism either, but when they are successful at something I have no problem acknowledging it. Nor am I a fan of corporate oligarchies or sociopathic economics masquerading as capitalism.

If they implemented strict psych evaluations before anyone was available for public office (as they should) a large swathe of sociopaths would be gone. If they changed the rules to make it less convenient for self interested assho-es to prosper, most of the rest would be gone.

It's a great problem when people give celebrity status to politicians. They should all be viewed sceptically and while ever we are not living in a Utopia they are failing and should be made to get back to work lol. 

The propaganda has been flying thick and fast against China, mostly to deflect from a monumental pandemic failure. Though it also gives the people an enemy and allows them their 5 minutes of hate each day.

Don't fall for it.

[DarkHunter]

4 hours ago, Horta said:

So your'e not impressed that a nation can lift around 2.5 times the total current population of the US (around 13% of the worlds population) of it's citizens out of extreme poverty in around 35 yrs? Wasn't talking about literal miracles (they don't exist) but metaphorically. So you don't think it's special because of all the other times that's happened lol...?

You do understand what you are trying to pass off as a miracle right.  China has reduced its extreme poverty from 88% of the population to 0.7% of the population but you do understand that extreme poverty is defined as making $1.90 or less per day.  Also about 600 million Chinese are only making about $150 a month so while China has improved it's not as great as you are making it out to be.

[Horta]

On 10/12/2020 at 6:11 AM, DarkHunter said:

You do understand what you are trying to pass off as a miracle right.  China has reduced its extreme poverty from 88% of the population to 0.7% of the population but you do understand that extreme poverty is defined as making $1.90 or less per day.  Also about 600 million Chinese are only making about $150 a month so while China has improved it's not as great as you are making it out to be.

The effort to increase the living standards of a huge population of agrarian peasants might take in many more factors and be a little more involved and nuanced than what a quick scroll of a wikipedia page will give you.

Though in keeping with the motif of everything is "bigger and better" in America, rest easy, the US does poverty with far more style and wealth. As in the people who work multiple jobs and earn a fortune (from a rural peasant pov) while still managing to live in squalor and poverty. Unlike China where poverty is seen as a problem and there really is a huge effort to combat it, in the US if through accident of birth you were to find yourself in impoverished socioeconomic circumstances you might actually get the blame for it and be seen as a burden on society. It seems the free flow of corporate socialism western capitalism doesn't care much for poverty (other than in finding ways to monetise it) and always manages to syphon the wealth in one direction.