Enlightenment by virtuous conduct alone...

[onlookerofmayhem]

12 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

This explanation of the origin of the Universe is the best and most excepted model of our Universes creation that exists today!

I agree that it's the best, most evidenced explanation we have regarding the state of the Universe as we observe it.

I disagree that it explains or even attempts to explain the origin of the Universe itself.

Time and space seem to have come into being consequent the Big Bang occuring.

It's a tough thing to wrap the brain around because we view everything in terms of whens and wheres.

As the link states the analogy of "What's North of the North Pole?", it's kind of a nonsensical question. 

[Crazy Horse]

23 hours ago, XenoFish said:

So what I've been encouraging you to do.

You have been encouraging?

 

[Crazy Horse]

23 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Maybe it is a polite way of saying why not get some training it certainly couldn’t hurt. 
 

 

You know my "Spiritual History" as well?

[Crazy Horse]

23 hours ago, Sherapy said:

This is a mighty big claim got any evidence for it? 

Yes..

Human consciousness, life, intelligence..

How else would you explain human consciousness, life, and intelligence from nothing, a big bang..?

Because That's the Greatest Miracle of ALL.

[Crazy Horse]

1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

No the only link between death and rebirth ( Reincarnation ) is Karmic Energy, and Karmic Energy is not a relative truth according to Buddha. With each rebirth you have choices to make, to either further purify your own Karmic Energy, or not to do so. To continue towards Enlightenment you much learn from the Buddhas teachings as written in the Dharma Sutras there is no other way to reach Nirvana according to the Buddha and that can never occur until your Karmic Energy is Purified.

As long as you continue to show little or no tolerance of others beliefs you can not progress according to Buddhist Philosophy. Now, I have not attacked or denigrated your beliefs in anyway, but again here you are not respectful of mine. Again I will tell you that’s fine, it doesn’t bother or effect me either way the anger is yours to hold not mine.

Yes, I understood the link between death and re-birth is karmic energy. I have said that not long since.

But what I have also said, something your ego missed, is that there is something beyond karma, death and re-birth, something you call Nirvana.

And please, where have I been disrespectful to Lord Buddha? I have nothing but great affection, love, respect, and honour for Him.

Pointing out some obvious truths is not disrespectful, ignoring them is.

[XenoFish]

17 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

You have been encouraging?

 

You to accept life as it is and develop your better half. 

[Crazy Horse]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

So tell me. Why is it when people question your beliefs, show some flaws within them, you then begin to act as if your beliefs (model of reality) is the only truth? That those who do not adhere to your belief system are "less than". I have yet to read the road map of this faith of yours. It appears to be solely based on maybe one or two spiritual concepts. 

Ego = Bad

God = Good

And yet what are you doing to reach this supposed unification with deity? Meditation, fasting, prayer, contemplation? Ritual magick? Righteous living? 

I know you have this idea of shutting off your sense of self in order to hear god's voice (your subconscious). Which can be easily done by just asking yourself a question that you consciously don't know the answer to. 

Are you trying to acheive this goal through right conduct, if so, what does that actually mean?

I think we all need more context regarding this spiritual journey of yours. 

 

I have set the context of this "Spiritual Journey" over the last few years...

Some folk listen quite intently, and others totally ignore what has been said.

That's your choice, and you are free to do what thou whilst.

Only there are consequences for each and every action. And some are more welcome than others.

But to answer your questions.

Meditation along-side kind-heartedness and love, in everything ones does, is basically it.

 

[Crazy Horse]

1 hour ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

We don't even know that the Universe came into being from nothing.

That may not even be possible.

All the constituent parts are made up of the material. From the elementary particle, to the atoms, to the elements and so forth. 

We seem to be a symptom of the universe.

Not really.

For all we know this is the only possible existence that can be.

And I don't see how existence of the universe or life or abstract thinking necessitates a being that had to create it.

That leads to a problem of infinite regression.

If the universe needed a creator, then wouldn't the creator need a creator? 

And if no, why the special pleading?

You are the one claiming a god exists.

Specifically that god is everything.

That is your burden of proof that you've failed to meet.

My answer to the questions you've asked is, I don't know.

I don't know what, if anything, preceded the Big Bang.

I don't know the mechanism behind how inanimate material can conglomerate into life.

I don't know if there's an intrinsic reason why things are the way they are.

That being said, your assertions that a god did it are unwarranted in my opinion.

You are equating god with the Universe.

I've already asked how you've determined that the Universe, as a whole, is a cognizant being.

It is true, that to know the beginnings of the Universe is pretty much impossible from where we are sitting right now.

And so one may only propose certain ideas etc..

GOD being GOD, is uncreated and infinite. This is one way of explaining things.

This view has many advantages, not only does it explain everything perfectly, ie, GOD did it, but it is also very empowering for anyone who actually tries to find out the truth, for themselves, and not from someone else.

If anyone has an alternative history, then fine, I hope it brings you peace, knowledge, wisdom, and an Enlightenment.

 

[Crazy Horse]

1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

 

Belittling somebody, without even trying to debate them, is pretty poor.

[Crazy Horse]

1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

My first Buddhist teacher was very very intelligent and young in the scheme of all things. I asked why do Buddhists not believe Buddha was a God! He looked at me for a moment while he contemplated my question and said the reason Buddhists do not believe in or use the word God is because God spelled in reverse order is Dog and how can a Dog be Devine!

And what's wrong with dogs?

Answer..

Nothing with the right seasoning...

[Crazy Horse]

21 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

You to accept life as it is and develop your better half. 

And yet you have never agreed with a single thing I have ever said, (as far as memory serves).

Don't you find that bizarre?

[Mr Walker]

On 12/14/2021 at 9:03 PM, XenoFish said:

Ah nihilism. The ultimate bs filter. Where you learn that society is a charade, religions are fake, and morality doesn't exist. 

Governments aren't real.

Laws aren't real.

Money is fake.

Existence has no inherent meaning point or purpose. 

Doesn't matter how great or small a person is, we're all going to die. 

lol The only true statement imo is your last one 

But so what ?

Death is an irrelevancy. It is life which is significant. Don't waste time thinking about death, for even a second.  Spend every second living life. Let death do as it may, and it has no powe rover you.  

It DOES matter how we live our life, what we do with it, and  how much we affect those around us, and our environment

IMO Nihilism is a cop out. If you (generic)  think life is meaningless then it gives you an excuse not to work,  struggle, plan, build, create, etc.

 An excuse not to contribute, to give of yourself,   or to do anything to make the world a better place  

[onlookerofmayhem]

3 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

GOD being GOD, is uncreated and infinite. This is one way of explaining things.

Well, this is where your equivocation  goes wrong.

If god = the universe and the universe = god then you are just saying the universe is uncreated and infinite.

How could god create itself out of nothing in this case?

See why there's an issue equivocating god and the universe?

7 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

This view has many advantages, not only does it explain everything perfectly, ie, GOD did it,

I don't see it being an advantage to claim some sort of victory over people who say they don't know by asserting that an unevidenced being is responsible for everything.

And it doesn't explain it perfectly as I've addressed in the first part of this post.

10 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

is also very empowering for anyone who actually tries to find out the truth, for themselves, and not from someone else.

Yeah. I get it. You feel superior because you think you have the answer to a question. Problem is your admission :

11 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

to know the beginnings of the Universe is pretty much impossible from where we are sitting right now.

So we both can't know.

And you can't support your belief with any kind of evidence.

You say we can't know, but in the same breath you say it's an obvious truth that you have discovered the answer.

13 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

If anyone has an alternative history, then fine, I hope it brings you peace, knowledge, wisdom, and an Enlightenment.

The history of the universe is irrelevant to me besides being a curiosity.

I am peaceful.

I am knowledgeable.

I have some wisdom.

I have no clue what it even means to be enlightened.

[XenoFish]

3 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

And yet you have never agreed with a single thing I have ever said, (as far as memory serves).

Don't you find that bizarre?

You've never clarified what you're actually doing. It's been a constant assault of ego is evil. And THAT (God or whatever). You can't steer a conversation with vagueness.

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 minute ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

I agree that it's the best, most evidenced explanation we have regarding the state of the Universe as we observe it.

I disagree that it explains or even attempts to explain the origin of the Universe itself.

Time and space seem to have come into being consequent the Big Bang occuring.

It's a tough thing to wrap the brain around because we view everything in terms of whens and wheres.

As the link states the analogy of "What's North of the North Pole?", it's kind of a nonsensical question. 

My friend the Big Bang Theory is losing acceptance today depending upon which of the top theoretical physicists you choose believe in. The distribution of matter and antimatter along with the distribution of both dark energy and dark matter could not have occurred in the pattern that our Universe has expanded into today according to new theories. In addition if the Big Bang had occurred, it would have reacted according to Newton’s third law of motion which states that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Well, my friend currently our Universe is not losing momentum concerning its speed of expansion, it gaining speed which is theoretically very strange if not impossible.

Now l am not a physics major or an academic of any kind but I do stay informed and I do have a basic understanding of the physic’s involved here and while I once believed the Big Bang was how Universal Creation occurred, and that it all begun from a singularity that just erupted in the middle of a void of nothing my views are changing. Because, some of the new theories are beginning to catch on and my mind is changing, but what ever did occur and I don’t know what it is or what to call it did create Space Time at the same instant. I agree it’s a very hard thing to wrap your brain around for us mere mortals, but Professor Hawking, Albert Einstein, and others are not like us, and to them the theoretical concepts of the laws of physics are viewed in a completely different conceptual light than most others may ever understand.

I am waiting for the next great mind to come on the scene, both Special and General Relativity are not complete Albert was only able to take us so far, not saying his discoveries were not Earth Shattering because they were, and they remain the very foundation of astrophysics to this very day. But even Einstein did not conceptualize the concept of the Big Bang theory, and he never proposed it. But hey I can’t explain it conclusively I don’t have the necessary tools up stairs But the day is coming maybe not in current life times, but the scientific mystery will be explained some day.

Take Care my friend!
 

[+Sherapy]

57 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

Yes..

Human consciousness, life, intelligence..

How else would you explain human consciousness, life, and intelligence from nothing, a big bang..?

Because That's the Greatest Miracle of ALL.

Human consciousness originates in the brain. 

[Mr Walker]

On 12/19/2021 at 5:20 PM, onlookerofmayhem said:

I see consciousness as an extension, or attribute of the brain.

I don't know of any evidence that suggests the universe is conscious or how we could even go about detecting that.

I think all human consciousnesses are separate from one another. They are mostly similar, but not a single entity.

I don't see the unification you seem to be referring to.

You just keep asserting things and not backing them up with anything tangible.

You seem to be saying :

"Life exists and some of it is conscious, therefore god exists."

I don't follow your reasoning.

That's a logical conclusion until you experience the reality

Most humans a re trapped within an isolated mind, and truly and logically believe that is all there is, and  all that there can be.

But it is not true. 

The human mind  is a living, dynamic, self directed  and purposeful, form of energy  Thus it  can connect to similar forms of energy in  the universal consciousness and, via that, to any/all other consciousnesses  

Now this is  only truly understandable  through a personal experience/ gnosis or enlightenment. 

It is not something easily proven until you experience it,   but it is as real as the power of love.

And as powerful and effective. 

EVERYTHING changes with this connection.  not just your understanding  and knowledge of the nature of self/ non self, and  of the universe, but  your understanding of the interconnectedness of everything.  You understand the nature of mind,  reality, perception, what is important and what is not, and how to be happy and content  no matter your material state of existence.  

In this connectivity you  understand that you have always been a part of "god" (the universal consciousness and its material manifestations)  and that "god" has always been  a part of you 

If you are lucky, it will also confer physical/practical abilities on you, just as being able to speak/think,  does   

People from  all cultures and ages describe this experience even if sometimes in different words and with different understandings  

here is one form of understanding i goggled complexly a t random.

https://insighttimer.com/blog/what-happens-when-you-open-your-third-eye/

 

here is a quite different description

 

 

What spiritual enlightenment or self-realization does is, it liberates you from the hedonic treadmill. Because you actually reach the completion or ultimate fulfillment that you have been searching for. Suddenly, the psychological time stops. You are not looking forward to the future anymore. So you neither search fulfillment in worldly affairs nor search enlightenment. Because every search is searching something in the future. At self-realization, the past and the future becomes collapsed in the present. You do not even feel like you have travelled all the way through time to reach that place. You feel like you have been always there. Do you think you can imagine this state? No, you can’t!

BUT (my words) you can experience it, know it, and feel it .

You also lose the psychological boundaries between you and the existence. Normally, you feel a difference between being alone and being in a room with another person. You feel it in your bones because your consciousness is trapped inside an idea of being a person or an entity that is distinct from the ‘others’. But after self-realization, you no longer sense the ‘other’ this way! The psychological wall that stands between you and the other breaks and melts away, leaving you in an ocean of oneness. This is what they call as oneness of God.

https://shanmugamp.org/2019/12/21/what-does-it-feel-like-to-be-spiritually-enlightened/

 

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Mr Walker

[+Sherapy]

37 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

lol The only true statement imo is your last one 

But so what ?

Death is an irrelevancy. It is life which is significant. Don't waste time thinking about death, for even a second.  Spend every second living life. Let death do as it may, and it has no powe rover you.  

It DOES matter how we live our life, what we do with it, and  how much we affect those around us, and our environment

IMO Nihilism is a cop out. If you (generic)  think life is meaningless then it gives you an excuse not to work,  struggle, plan, build, create, etc.

 An excuse not to contribute, to give of yourself,   or to do anything to make the world a better place  

Existence has no inherent meaning other than the meaning one gives it.  This opens up a lot of possibility. 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Sherapy

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 hour ago, Crazy Horse said:

Yes..

Human consciousness, life, intelligence..

How else would you explain human consciousness, life, and intelligence from nothing, a big bang..?

Because That's the Greatest Miracle of ALL.

Please stick to your topic, your knowledge of Biogenesis and Astrophysics are based upon a mythical creator not science. Even Buddhists believe in science the Dalai Lama is proof of that, and he is certainly one of the world renowned Buddhist Scholars alive today!

Edited December 20, 2021 by Manwon Lender

[+Sherapy]

1 minute ago, Mr Walker said:

That's a logical conclusion until you experience the reality

Most humans a re trapped within an isolated mind, and truly and logically believe that is all there is, and  all that there can be.

But it is not true. 

The human mind  is a living, dynamic, self directed  and purposeful, form of energy  Thus it  can connect to similar forms of energy in  the universal consciousness and, via that, to any/all other consciousnesses  

Now this is  only truly understandable  through a personal experience/ gnosis or enlightenment. 

It is not something easily proven until you experience it,   but it is as real as the power of love.

And as powerful and effective. 

EVERYTHING changes with this connection.  not just your understanding  and knowledge of the nature of self/ non self, and  of the universe, but  your understanding of the interconnectedness of everything.  You understand the nature of mind,  reality, perception, what is important and what is not, and how to be happy and content  no matter your material state of existence.  

In this connectivity you  understand that you have always been a part of "god" (the universal consciousness and its material manifestations)  and that "god" has always been  a part of you 

If you are lucky, it will also confer physical/practical abilities on you, just as being able to speak/think,  does   

People from  all cultures and ages describe this experience even if sometimes in different words and with different understandings  

Do you have evidence for this?

[Grim Reaper 6]

1 hour ago, Crazy Horse said:

You know my "Spiritual History" as well?

I don’t mean to be rude, but honestly according to the posts across this thread it appears that no knows or understands what your spiritual concepts are. In fact it must be questioned if you are even sure what your Spiritual History or Concepts are and I mean that with all honesty. As I have tried to discreetly point out, you are not at all open to anything except your own views and you feel a need to attack others beliefs without cause. The memes I posted describe your Egocentric behavior to the exact definition of the word, it’s truly a-shame!

Edited December 20, 2021 by Manwon Lender

[Mr Walker]

11 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Existence has no inherent meaning other than the meaning one gives it. 

lol Thats what I've been saying for  a decade here

However, every self aware intelligence either creates a purpose for itself, or  it ceases to exist.   (just choosing to live is constructing a meaning )

Hence the meaning you give to your existence is extremely important, and will direct and shape your entire life  It may well shape the lives of many others, and make the world a slightly better place )(or you can harm others and make the world worse, if that is your chosen purpose) or you can simply live as a parasite, contributing nothing, and consuming the work and efforts of others .

Your actions can reverberate  for centuries, or even longer in certain cases, but generally they will affect the world for at least  as long as anyone who knew you lives.   

[+Sherapy]

1 minute ago, Manwon Lender said:

I don’t mean to be rude, but honestly according to the posts across this thread it appears that no knows or understands what your spiritual concepts are. In fact it must be questioned if you are even sure what your Spiritual History or Concepts are and I lean that with all honesty. As I have tried to discreetly point out, you are not at all open to anything except your own views and you feel a need to attack others beliefs without cause. The memes I posted describe your Egocentric behavior to the exact definition of the word, it’s truly a-shame!

I don’t think he does either. 

[Grim Reaper 6]

24 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Human consciousness originates in the brain. 

At conception some believe, in truth I am not certain but it’s a mystery that would be wonderful to discover!

[Mr Walker]

19 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Do you have evidence for this?

You didn't really read my post carefully did you? I said 

Now this is  only truly understandable  through a personal experience/ gnosis or enlightenment. 

It is not something easily proven until you experience it,   but it is as real as the power of love.

Of course i have evidences, but they are not transferrable to you. 

I have evidences that love exists also, but unless you  experience it for yourself, I can't  prove its existence to you  Even if you have felt love I cant prove that i have 

Of course there a re some demonstrable evidences resulting from the linking of minds 

In my case it is an abilty to find lost and stolen property, to extend  my consciousness beyond my body, (more so in my youth)  and some times to read ,minds  These are all "proven" abilities based on results  witnessed  by many other people  

 

 

Edited December 20, 2021 by Mr Walker