Enlightenment by virtuous conduct alone...

[Crazy Horse]

7 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 

I have a strong healthy ego and self  esteem Enlightenment does not preclude those things . Indeed a truly enlightened person being honest with themselves will have them 

Trying to teach and help others is a higher form of enlightenment than so much detachment that you don't care about others    Detachment from  the material  is one thing.  Detachment form people or your environment/world  is another. 

 

The ego most certainly does preclude Enlightenment Mr Walker.

Enlightenment being the Union with THAT we call GOD.

Any ego, (which is really only the shadow of the mind, which is in its-self a showdown of the soul) shall distract ones mind with either good intentions, or bad ones, in any event, this distraction will stop, inhibit, that Union with the Absolute.

I do agree with your second paragraph, yet what is the highest form of help, and teaching?

That which comes direct from THAT.

 

[SHaYap]

Take That... 

Quote

 

[00.04:01]

~

 

[+Hammerclaw]

https://youtu.be/t2mU6USTBRE

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Hammerclaw

[+Sherapy]

15 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I would respect your judgement more if you bothered to read and think about what i write, with an open mind  and an attempt to understand and appreciate my posts  rather than reinterpreting them through your own fixed beliefs.

What you see as bragging is actually truth, and me being honest about myself

I have a strong healthy ego and self  esteem Enlightenment does not preclude those things . Indeed a truly enlightened person being honest with themselves will have them 

Trying to teach and help others is a higher form of enlightenment than so much detachment that you don't care about others    Detachment from  the material  is one thing.  Detachment form people or your environment/world  is another. 

Enlightenment   is the ultimate in caring because you are one w ith all, and hurt /harm to one is hurt /harm to all.  

I don't need to be right (ie I have no psychological attachment or need to be correct all the time . That would be unhealthy)  Its just that t I almost always am right  ( in the areas where I debate things )   I  keep asking people to show me where I am wrong (and what evidences there are to prove me wrong)  but very few do.

When the y do it is an enjoyable  learning opportunity for me 

Its interesting. I don't judge you (although it is very tempting to do so, just in my mind) yet you clearly judge me 

 

 I am also speaking about a different form of enlightenment to that you might be thinking of 

It is first an experienced gnosis ( like love) Just as real and as powerful as being "hit by the thunderbolt"  when you  fall in love  Then (as it is with love)  it is learning from,  and applying what one gains in that experience, to transform oneself and the way one lives.

Love does this, and so does enlightenment.

Both last a lifetime, If the y are genuine, and worked on.  

Both transform you instantly, but both also transform you over your life, and shape the life you live. Thus they are  continually evolving and changing the person you are, from the one you would have been, should you ever have experienced love or enlightenment. 

this  is the form of enlightenment I am talking about.

 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/enlightened-person_b_8018566

1. Happiness

The enlightened person is happy and joyful. He has a cheerful disposition most of the time, and is willing to share that joy with others. He is always optimistic that all challenges have a resolution. Even though the resolution may not be the most desirable, he is confident that he is capable of being at peace with it.

2. Peaceful and Serene

The enlightened person is peaceful and serene, because he is free of fear and other unwholesome emotions. He can see that the human condition reaches beyond this physical existence, so he no longer has a fear of the unknown. He is free of worry because he understands that freedom from suffering comes from within, and not from material possessions.

3. Loving, Kind, and Compassionate

The enlightened person is loving, kind, and compassionate for two main reasons: 1) he genuinely cares about other people, regardless of whether they care about him, and 2) he knows that other people provide him with the spiritual nourishment he needs to continue growing. Therefore, he remains spiritually open to everyone.

4. Not Self-Centered

The enlightened person is not self-centered, because he has lost the sense of a separate self. He can see the interconnected nature of our existence. To him, this is not just a concept, but a reality. He realizes that all physical manifestations (humans, animals, plants, etc.) depend on each other for their survival.

5. Emotionally Stable

The enlightened person is emotionally stable because he no longer has an ego that needs validation for its existence. He is not hurt because there is no ego to hurt. He does not get angry because he is understanding and compassionate toward those who are not as far along the spiritual path.

6. Patient and Understanding

The enlightened person is patient and understanding because he appreciates how our ignorance creates our own suffering. He understands the challenges of achieving enlightenment, so he doesn't condemn people for their missteps.

7. Humble

The enlightened person is humble. Since he knows his place in the universe, he doesn't need validation from others. Therefore, he has nothing to prove to anyone, including himself. His humble nature allows him to be kind and gentle, and be open to everyone he encounters.

8. Insightful and Open-Minded

The enlightened person is insightful and open-minded. He is able to see the world with great clarity, without attachment to preconceived ideas about people, places, and things. This enables him to observe the world without jumping to conclusions. Belief and intuition are replaced with clarity of vision and understanding.

9. Inner Strength

The enlightened person has great inner strength. He has learned healthy ways of connecting with the sources of spiritual nourishment -- through healthy interactions with people, and within. He no longer has a need for the power struggles that most of us engage in.

10. Leadership

The enlightened person is a leader. Having awakened to the point of understanding the nature of suffering, he realizes his duty to help other people find freedom from suffering. He leads by example, rather than control. People follow him because of who he is and what he stands for. They want to be more like him.

11. Mindful of His Health

The enlightened person is mindful of his health -- physical, mental, and emotional. He knows that his mind, body, and spirit must be in harmony in order to maintain his spiritual condition. He has developed an understanding of physical and mental health, and doesn't blindly depend on others for his health. He is mindful of the nutrients and substances he puts into his body.

12. Committed to His Spiritual Practice

The enlightened person never forgets how he achieved enlightenment. He is also aware that it takes continuous effort to remain that way. It takes a great deal of spiritual nourishment to help others along their path, so he's aware that he needs to replenish his spiritual strength on a daily basis. Otherwise, he'll lose his effectiveness as a spiritual messenger.

Overall, the enlightened person is mindful of himself, and the world around him. Furthermore, he is curious and willing to continue learning. He is aware that even though he can see with great clarity, developing an understanding of the true nature of our existence takes time to observe and investigate.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/enlightened-person_b_8018566

I rank very highly in all these attributes even those where it might not seem like it to you  

I'll admit that I am not  very humble. I see humility as a false virtue and just as wrong as false or undeserved pride. and yet I dont feel a need to prove myself. My ego is sufficient to not require validation from  others.  I am exceptionally kind  and gentle, and open to others. 

(Thats not self  analysis; it  is the written and verbal analysis of colleagues, neighbours, community,  friends, and family.. 

Paul, fair enough it is now clear that the perspective you are offering on enlightenment is rooted and anchored deeply in your SDA beliefs, and whatever your Google search happens to come across, today it is the Huffington Post article, in the past it was Bucke, none the less, thank you for sharing. 

https://diamond-sutra.com/read-the-diamond-sutra-here/diamond-sutra-chapter-9/

 

Buddha then asked, “What do you think, Subhuti, does one who has entered the stream which flows to Enlightenment, say ‘I have entered the stream’?”

“No, Buddha”, Subhuti replied. “A true disciple entering the stream would not think of themselves as a separate person that could be entering anything. Only that disciple who does not differentiate themselves from others, who has no regard for name, shape, sound, odor, taste, touch or for any quality can truly be called a disciple who has entered the stream.”

“Tell me, Subhuti. Does a Buddha say to himself, ‘I have obtained Perfect Enlightenment.’?”

“No, lord. There is no such thing as Perfect Enlightenment to obtain. If a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha were to say to himself, ‘I am enlightened’ he would be admitting there is an individual person, a separate self and personality, and would therefore not be a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha.”

Subhuti then said, “Most Honored One! You have said that I, Subhuti, excel amongst thy disciples in knowing the bliss of Enlightenment, in being perfectly content in seclusion, and in being free from all passions. Yet I do not say to myself that I am so, for if I ever thought of myself as such then it would not be true that I escaped ego delusion. I know that in truth there is no Subhuti and therefore Subhuti abides nowhere, that he neither knows nor does he not know bliss, and that he is neither free from nor enslaved by his passions.”

All the best. 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

7 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

The ego most certainly does preclude Enlightenment Mr Walker.

Enlightenment being the Union with THAT we call GOD.

Any ego, (which is really only the shadow of the mind, which is in its-self a showdown of the soul) shall distract ones mind with either good intentions, or bad ones, in any event, this distraction will stop, inhibit, that Union with the Absolute.

I do agree with your second paragraph, yet what is the highest form of help, and teaching?

That which comes direct from THAT.

 

Read post #629. Basically claiming “enlightenment” serves as a sign post pointing to being deluded by the ego. It is the kind of gauge intended to help. 
 

 

Edited January 7, 2022 by Sherapy

[XenoFish]

I suppose I'm right (maybe) there really isn't such a thing as enlightenment. Just life and the ever dawning realization of things.

[+Sherapy]

26 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I suppose I'm right (maybe) there really isn't such a thing as enlightenment. Just life and the ever dawning realization of things.it is the Buddha’s teachings.

Good pull, It is the Buddha’s teachings. 
 

Just an aside: The claims otherwise IMHO are just posters undergirding with their own religious beliefs which points to the monotheist perspective of needing to feel and be special in one case and a better person in the other case.  

https://diamond-sutra.com/read-the-diamond-sutra-here/diamond-sutra-chapter-17/

‘At that time, the venerable Subhuti then asked the Buddha, “World-Honored One, may I ask you a question again? If sons or daughters of a good family want to develop the highest, most fulfilled and awakened mind, if they wish to attain the Highest Perfect Wisdom, what should they do to help quiet their drifting minds and master their thinking?”

The Buddha replied:

“Subhuti, a good son or daughter who wants to give rise to the highest, most fulfilled, and awakened mind must create this resolved attitude of mind: ‘I must help to lead all beings to the shore of awakening, but, after these beings have become liberated, in truth I know that not even a single being has been liberated.’ Why is this so? If a disciple cherishes the idea of a self, a person, a living being or a universal self, then that person is not an authentic disciple. Why? Because in fact there is no independently existing object of mind called the highest, most fulfilled, and awakened mind.”

Edited January 7, 2022 by Sherapy

[XenoFish]

40 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Good pull, It is the Buddha’s teachings. 
 

Just an aside: The claims otherwise IMHO are just posters undergirding with their own religious beliefs which points to the monotheist perspective of needing to feel and be special in one case and a better person in the other case.  

https://diamond-sutra.com/read-the-diamond-sutra-here/diamond-sutra-chapter-17/

‘At that time, the venerable Subhuti then asked the Buddha, “World-Honored One, may I ask you a question again? If sons or daughters of a good family want to develop the highest, most fulfilled and awakened mind, if they wish to attain the Highest Perfect Wisdom, what should they do to help quiet their drifting minds and master their thinking?”

The Buddha replied:

“Subhuti, a good son or daughter who wants to give rise to the highest, most fulfilled, and awakened mind must create this resolved attitude of mind: ‘I must help to lead all beings to the shore of awakening, but, after these beings have become liberated, in truth I know that not even a single being has been liberated.’ Why is this so? If a disciple cherishes the idea of a self, a person, a living being or a universal self, then that person is not an authentic disciple. Why? Because in fact there is no independently existing object of mind called the highest, most fulfilled, and awakened mind.”

We're basically dealing with people pumped up on their own egotistical superiority complex. With a added hint of self righteousness for extra flavor.

Edited January 7, 2022 by XenoFish

[+Hammerclaw]

 ^"Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seems to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may become wise.

 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness... "

1 Corinthians 3:18-19

[SHaYap]

2 hours ago, Sherapy said:

....and awakened mind must create this resolved attitude of mind...

"create" is more often rendered as the Eastern equivalent of "cultivate" in Asian languages. 

~

 

[+Sherapy]

27 minutes ago, SHaYap said:

"create" is more often rendered as the Eastern equivalent of "cultivate" in Asian languages. 

~

 

Thank you, much gratitude to you for sharing this.

[SHaYap]

1 hour ago, Sherapy said:

Thank you, much gratitude to you for sharing this.

"Catching the moon"

Quote

“This is wonderful, my dear! In Buddhism there are no distinctions between people. There is only this: each person must hold fast to the desire to awaken and cultivate a heart of great compassion. People are complete as they are. If you don’t fall into delusive thoughts, there is no Buddha and no sentient being; there is only one complete nature. If you want to know your true nature, you need to turn toward the source of your delusive thoughts. This is called zazen.”

...

https://www.lionsroar.com/reflections-on-chiyonos-no-water-no-moon/

~

Polishing a Tile into a mirror... 

Quote

https://www.ordinarymind.com › talks

We polish the tile to enjoy, appreciate, and know its tile-ness

 

So polishing the tile to make a mirror is the essence of the Buddhas and Patriarchs. Accordingly the tile becomes the ancient mirror. And when we polish...

 

~

No worries... 

~

[onlookerofmayhem]

28 minutes ago, SHaYap said:

No worries... 

Hakuna Matata

[SHaYap]

7 minutes ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

Hakuna Matata

Quote

[00.02:49]

~

 

[+Sherapy]

1 hour ago, SHaYap said:

"Catching the moon"

~

Polishing a Tile into a mirror... 

~

No worries... 

~

Thank you    I deeply appreciate your add too’s. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Sherapy

[Mr Walker]

15 hours ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

Based on the pictures I have seen, I doubt this. 

Go on . I even look like a hirsute Buddha.(one epitome of enlightenment)   

However, I am mindful of my health, both physical and  mental.

eg I dont drink, smoke, use drugs, I am mostly vegetarian, and I get plenty of exercise . I  generally eat all fresh foods including fruit and veges.  a lot of which I grow myself.

  I don't eat any salt or sugar. 

I am not fanatical about anything, however.  

My blood pressure, sugar levels, cholesterol etc.   are all exemplary .

I don't worry about my external appearance, including body image, clothing or haircuts . None of those define who we are 

[Mr Walker]

14 hours ago, Crazy Horse said:

The ego most certainly does preclude Enlightenment Mr Walker.

Enlightenment being the Union with THAT we call GOD.

Any ego, (which is really only the shadow of the mind, which is in its-self a showdown of the soul) shall distract ones mind with either good intentions, or bad ones, in any event, this distraction will stop, inhibit, that Union with the Absolute.

I do agree with your second paragraph, yet what is the highest form of help, and teaching?

That which comes direct from THAT.

 

 I think many have a problem with understanding ego Ego is sense of self  All human beings require some ego to go on living 

Egotistical, however, ie where a person has too much ego It can be as damaging as having too little  Both too much ego, and too little, can make it harder for a human to connect with, and relate to, others, including god

If you  had no ego you would have no sense of self,  at all.  If you  have no sense of self  you cant seek, or find, union with another. 

IMO we teach many things which have been proven useful or helpful to us. 

I pass on things  which l  learned from my parents , and other wise adults,  from life experiences and academic learning, and also from  my connection to the cosmic consciousness (god)  

[Mr Walker]

8 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Paul, fair enough it is now clear that the perspective you are offering on enlightenment is rooted and anchored deeply in your SDA beliefs, and whatever your Google search happens to come across, today it is the Huffington Post article, in the past it was Bucke, none the less, thank you for sharing. 

https://diamond-sutra.com/read-the-diamond-sutra-here/diamond-sutra-chapter-9/

 

Buddha then asked, “What do you think, Subhuti, does one who has entered the stream which flows to Enlightenment, say ‘I have entered the stream’?”

“No, Buddha”, Subhuti replied. “A true disciple entering the stream would not think of themselves as a separate person that could be entering anything. Only that disciple who does not differentiate themselves from others, who has no regard for name, shape, sound, odor, taste, touch or for any quality can truly be called a disciple who has entered the stream.”

“Tell me, Subhuti. Does a Buddha say to himself, ‘I have obtained Perfect Enlightenment.’?”

“No, lord. There is no such thing as Perfect Enlightenment to obtain. If a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha were to say to himself, ‘I am enlightened’ he would be admitting there is an individual person, a separate self and personality, and would therefore not be a Perfectly Enlightened Buddha.”

Subhuti then said, “Most Honored One! You have said that I, Subhuti, excel amongst thy disciples in knowing the bliss of Enlightenment, in being perfectly content in seclusion, and in being free from all passions. Yet I do not say to myself that I am so, for if I ever thought of myself as such then it would not be true that I escaped ego delusion. I know that in truth there is no Subhuti and therefore Subhuti abides nowhere, that he neither knows nor does he not know bliss, and that he is neither free from nor enslaved by his passions.”

All the best. 

Roflmao Classic sherapy

First, use my actual name rather than my user name to imply familiarity ,  authority or knowledge. 

Second, make an untrue statement of opinion, as if it was fact,  and fail to give any rationale/evidence  for  that statement

(My philosophies evolved as a teenager and a secular humanist 

I do like some  of the SDA lifestyle teachings (The y are similar to secular humanism and Buddhism in many ways ) but i don't follow any of their theological ones) 

My point was that it is YOUR understanding  of enlightenment which is limited and restricted  There are many forms and it is an evolving  thing 

Bucke uses Walt Whitman as a classic example of an enlightened person  Walt had many of the indicators of enlightenment posted above Enlightenment is found not just in eastern religions like Buddhism,  but among atheists and every form of faith.

In one way it is simply the outward indicator of a person with a very healthy psychological profile 

The quotes you gave from  Buddha are perfectly true, but you don't understand their meaning 

I've tried to explain to you before how I am one with the all and how this realisation came to me, and what it means in practice, but apparently  it is something beyond your abilty to comprehend or accept 

I've also pointed out that enlightenment is a path or a voyage. You spend your life moving along it.   However, there are a few critical stops along the way as you evolve a working knowledge and practice. First you have to get on the path  Then you have to work at the required practices.

BUT at some point you will have specific moments of gnosis or enlightenment, as your mind evolves the abilty to experience them. 

Imagine trekking the Himalayas.  It is hard work, but you are getting fitter and more adapted to altitude.

Then suddenly you come out above a valley  of transcendent beauty, bathed in sunshine. In a moment you are overwhelmed by many things, including new appreciations, knowledge and understandings   These never   leave you, but you continue to walk, to get stronger, fitter, and more adapted 

With luck, you  will have other similar pivotal moments of enlightenment  along your trek,   but the gradual evolution and strengthening of your mind and  body is just as important 

ps I do disagree with one aspect of the Buddhism you speak of here,  because of my modern knowledge of science, psychology and human cognition 

We ARE individuals .Our minds, like our  bodies, are evolved as individual entities 

We always will be.

The best we can achieve (while living a t least)  is to be AS one with everything ;  to connect with it, while retaining our own identity and sense of self 

Enlightenment  includes understanding this in theory, and achieving it in practice. 

Edited January 8, 2022 by Mr Walker

[Crazy Horse]

10 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Good pull, It is the Buddha’s teachings. 
 

 

The Buddha taught that there isn't such a thing as enlightenment?

[Crazy Horse]

4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 I think many have a problem with understanding ego Ego is sense of self  All human beings require some ego to go on living 

Egotistical, however, ie where a person has too much ego It can be as damaging as having too little  Both too much ego, and too little, can make it harder for a human to connect with, and relate to, others, including god

If you  had no ego you would have no sense of self,  at all.  If you  have no sense of self  you cant seek, or find, union with another. 

IMO we teach many things which have been proven useful or helpful to us. 

I pass on things  which l  learned from my parents , and other wise adults,  from life experiences and academic learning, and also from  my connection to the cosmic consciousness (god)  

The first line and premise is incorrect, Mr W.

One does not need an ego to live, in fact, with-out an ego one shall no longer suffer and live a much fuller life. Although pain being one thing, and suffering being another. 

One may think of the ego as the shadow of the mind, which is only the shadow of the soul, which is a very thin veil placed upon THAT. So the ego is a shadow, of a shadow, of a shadow, facing away from GOD. Which may, with a sense of separateness, lead one to some very dark and lonely places. And so, when one has completely turned back towards THAT, ones ego is no longer needed nor able to continue and shall dissolve, evaporate, back to the higher mind, which in turn also dissolves back into the soul.

Ego is not the sense of self, the Self is beyond ego/body/mind.

To truly connect with "other", then the less ego involved, the better.

One may act spontaneously, selflessly, from a place of love.

HH Dalai Lama has said that he is willing to drop even long held beliefs, if new information is demonstrated to be true, good, and valuable. (Paraphrase).

 

 

[Crazy Horse]

9 hours ago, Hammerclaw said:

 ^"Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seems to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may become wise.

 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness... "

1 Corinthians 3:18-19

And who do most people around here see as the most foolish?

It has to be CH, or Mr Walker..

So thanks for that H..

Good call.

[XenoFish]

I see the problem. I'm a ginger, I have no soul. That's why none of this works.

[Crazy Horse]

9 hours ago, SHaYap said:

"create" is more often rendered as the Eastern equivalent of "cultivate" in Asian languages. 

~

 

I like that..

It shows a two way, multi-symbiotic partnership, (at least in a relative sense) at work.

In the story of the Prodigal Son, once the father had seen his boy off in the distance, he ran and fell at his feet.

All is One, and so when one genuinely asks, seeks, knocks, one is answered.

 

[SHaYap]

1 hour ago, Crazy Horse said:

I like that..

It shows a two way, multi-symbiotic partnership, (at least in a relative sense) at work.

That's your Euro-western centric ego taking center stage ...

~

1 hour ago, Crazy Horse said:

In the story of the Prodigal Son, once the father had seen his boy off in the distance, he ran and fell at his feet.

So ye sow, thus thou reap... 

~

1 hour ago, Crazy Horse said:

All is One, and so when one genuinely asks, seeks, knocks, one is answered.

Echoes works the same way... 

~

[XenoFish]

Quote

"Walking the spiritual path properly is a very subtle process: it is not something to jump into naively. There are numerous sidetracks which lead to a distorted, ego-centered version of spirituality; we can deceive ourselves into thinking we are developing spirituality when instead we are strengthening our egocentricity through spiritual techniques.”

Link