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Enlightenment by virtuous conduct alone...


Ajay0
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7 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Indeed, there is a well known saying in meditative circles. “You get what you get when you meditate.”

CH is new to this. 

That’s very true, and I agree he is new at this as we all are. But, lack of tolerance of others feelings and beliefs is something that has plagued mankind throughout it’s history and that’s the first thing we all most overcome to even begin change. Lack of tolerance distorts vision and makes any positive path impossible to locate. Tolerance is the key that unlocks all doors, turns on the lights, and allows us to view the real world so that we can actually see ourselves and our own personal faults. Without it there can be no new beginning only the continued circular cycle of despair and confusion.

Thanks!:tu:

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8 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Maybe it is a polite way of saying why not get some training it certainly couldn’t hurt. 
 

 

My comments were not intended as an insult. They were based on his comments that no Buddhist Master would advocate my beliefs or views. I thought that maybe he was aware of something that I was not, and was interested to learn why and what caused him to make those comments to me nothing more. You know based upon my experiences we can learn something from anyone, and I certainly have learned something from him!:tu:

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7 hours ago, Sherapy said:

My experiences include a settling of thoughts on their own but they do not disappear all together. The mind does what it does.

Sheri, when I meditate I also first look towards my center to calm my mind. I usually start with a relaxed position and use deep breathing exercises. I start at toes and move up from there relaxing each part of my body in turn until I feel calm and relaxed. Then I focus on what I am presently working on, whether it’s pain relief or other changes I am trying to make and throughout meditation I focus everything upon those things. But, I never stop thinking because if I did how would it be possible to focus on anything or gain any benefit from the practice, just my thoughts!:tu:

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7 hours ago, Sherapy said:

The objective is to ask questions as a way to challenge and loosen and explore the grip of ingrained beliefs. 
 

 

Buddha said believe nothing, not even if I say it is so. Ask questions contemplate and consider the answers, examine the facts to see if you can understand process of thought and once you have fully evaluated the question except it or disregard it based upon your own understanding of the content posed. :tu:

Nothing can be achieved without critical thinking!:tu:

Edited by Manwon Lender
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2 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

My comments were not intended as an insult. They were based on his comments that no Buddhist Master would advocate my beliefs or views. I thought that maybe he was aware of something that I was not, and was interested to learn why and what caused him to make those comments to me nothing more. You know based upon my experiences we can learn something from anyone, and I certainly have learned something from him!:tu:

I will agree he certainly got triggered based on his interpretation where none was intended. He has a wonderful opportunity or not to explore deeper.  And, thank you for your post and contributions to this thread. I learn from you.:tu:

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1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

I will agree he certainly got triggered based on his interpretation where none was intended. He has a wonderful opportunity or not to explore deeper.  And, thank you for your post and contributions to this thread. I learn from you.:tu:

Sheri, you know what’s really wonderful is how much we all learn from each other!:tu:

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16 hours ago, Sherapy said:

The objective is to ask questions as a way to challenge and loosen and explore the grip of ingrained beliefs. 
 

 

Yes it is, and it is certainly not to challenge anthers beliefs. Its designed to start a conversation that each party understand each a little better, and in fact there are no absolutes so no matter the answer no one is truly wrong in their feelings and beliefs. In the end no matter how any conversation turns out if both parties apply critical though much can still be learned about each other so long as tolerance of each others beliefs are maintained.:tu:

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On 12/19/2021 at 6:20 AM, Manwon Lender said:

Please in my spiritual beliefs there is no God, Omnipotent Deities, Spirits, or even souls there is nothing but a Karmic energy transfer at death that takes place during reincarnation. 

This idea that there is nothing but karmic energy is totally erroneous.

Karma is only a relative truth.

There is something beyond.

You would understand it as Nirvana, or Buddha-nature.

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On 12/19/2021 at 6:50 AM, onlookerofmayhem said:

I see consciousness as an extension, or attribute of the brain.

I don't know of any evidence that suggests the universe is conscious or how we could even go about detecting that.

I think all human consciousnesses are separate from one another. They are mostly similar, but not a single entity.

I don't see the unification you seem to be referring to.

You just keep asserting things and not backing them up with anything tangible.

You seem to be saying :

"Life exists and some of it is conscious, therefore god exists."

I don't follow your reasoning.

Compassionate reasoning and logical thought may take one only so far. After-which one must drop all thoughts etc..

And so, please can anyone reason how exactly the whole Universe came into being from nothing, and that life and intelligence, feelings and emotions were born from inanimate material?

This is a miracle worthy of any GOD.

But if you, or anyone else, can reasonably prove otherwise, then please do.

 

 

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On 12/19/2021 at 6:53 AM, Manwon Lender said:

Actually the foundation of everything is Samsara, everything in the universe is emptiness, without substance, including humans, because there is nothing that is independent of anything else. Everything is by nature interdependent, hence empty of its own existence. From this follows the Buddhist doctrine of the Anatman, the absence or non-existence of a permanent self. This practice allows us to shed our illusions, to purify our karma, and ultimately, without even wanting to, without desire, leads us towards liberation in the cycle of rebirth and death.

Once our Karma is purified enlightenment can be found and Nirvana is attained, this is the only way to stop the cycle of death and rebirth.:)

Samsara is the illusionary state of consciousness. Its the foundation of all our suffering, the "collective ego" one might say.

GOD is Unmovable, Substantial, and Essential.

From THAT, all things arise, and fall, and are therefore empty in nature. Except ones consciousness. Which is THAT spark of Divinity that Christ spoke about. 

"The Kingdom of Heaven within."

Its funny, strange, how the Buddha foretold how his dharma would only last 500 years before it became corrupted. Which also happened to be the time of the Christ.

 

 

 

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On 12/19/2021 at 6:57 AM, Hammerclaw said:

If aware of nothingness is enlightenment, I'll pass. 

That's fine, your ego will be pleased, for a moment of two, before it starts to complain again.

But, when one looses the ego, one sees more clearly, and may respond to the world spontaneously, from a more compassionate place.

The more one lets go, the more one receives.

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On 12/19/2021 at 7:08 AM, Hammerclaw said:

Theology a-la-carte is an amusing pastime.

Oh, but its a lot more than that..

To live in the present moment, is "The Present", par excellence.

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On 12/19/2021 at 7:11 AM, Manwon Lender said:

First you say that no Buddhist Master would advocate my approach and I quote “  I don't believe there would be one Buddhist Master who would advocate such an unholy ideal. So how can you say what I just quoted without any training by a Buddhist Master, it is pretty obviously a complete contradiction that violates basic ethics. :unsure:

There is nothing to win here, those comments are purely Egocentric and nothing more. To tell another their spirituality and beliefs is ridiculous is not only proof of a lack of center it is also foolish by nature! If your training was truly irrelevant you would not attempt to force others to believe your concept of things like you have done to me in this thread.

I have asked no one to follow my beliefs or denigrated anyones beliefs the only one doing that here is you. I am not offended by your comments or actions here at all. Your actions only prove to all who read this you lack of understanding of the Buddhist Philosophies. 

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No Buddhist Master would reject any idea with-out first addressing, pondering, and discussing it, especially one that claims to deal with such a short way to Enlightenment.

One doesn't need to know every single Buddhist Master to know that much.

And I was calling your ego ridiculous, you, are divine.

But the quote is very relevant still.

And, I have never told anyone to follow my beliefs etc, that is a lie. I very often say that its your choice..

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32 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

This idea that there is nothing but karmic energy is totally erroneous.

Karma is only a relative truth.

There is something beyond.

You would understand it as Nirvana, or Buddha-nature.

No the only link between death and rebirth ( Reincarnation ) is Karmic Energy, and Karmic Energy is not a relative truth according to Buddha. With each rebirth you have choices to make, to either further purify your own Karmic Energy, or not to do so. To continue towards Enlightenment you much learn from the Buddhas teachings as written in the Dharma Sutras there is no other way to reach Nirvana according to the Buddha and that can never occur until your Karmic Energy is Purified.

As long as you continue to show little or no tolerance of others beliefs you can not progress according to Buddhist Philosophy. Now, I have not attacked or denigrated your beliefs in anyway, but again here you are not respectful of mine. Again I will tell you that’s fine, it doesn’t bother or effect me either way the anger is yours to hold not mine.:)

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5 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

And, I have never told anyone to follow my beliefs etc, that is a lie. I very often say that its your choice..

So tell me. Why is it when people question your beliefs, show some flaws within them, you then begin to act as if your beliefs (model of reality) is the only truth? That those who do not adhere to your belief system are "less than". I have yet to read the road map of this faith of yours. It appears to be solely based on maybe one or two spiritual concepts. 

Ego = Bad

God = Good

And yet what are you doing to reach this supposed unification with deity? Meditation, fasting, prayer, contemplation? Ritual magick? Righteous living? 

I know you have this idea of shutting off your sense of self in order to hear god's voice (your subconscious). Which can be easily done by just asking yourself a question that you consciously don't know the answer to. 

Are you trying to acheive this goal through right conduct, if so, what does that actually mean?

I think we all need more context regarding this spiritual journey of yours. 

 

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22 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

And so, please can anyone reason how exactly the whole Universe came into being from nothing,

We don't even know that the Universe came into being from nothing.

That may not even be possible.

23 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

that life and intelligence, feelings and emotions were born from inanimate material?

All the constituent parts are made up of the material. From the elementary particle, to the atoms, to the elements and so forth. 

We seem to be a symptom of the universe.

25 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

This is a miracle worthy of any GOD.

Not really.

For all we know this is the only possible existence that can be.

And I don't see how existence of the universe or life or abstract thinking necessitates a being that had to create it.

That leads to a problem of infinite regression.

If the universe needed a creator, then wouldn't the creator need a creator? 

And if no, why the special pleading?

29 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

But if you, or anyone else, can reasonably prove otherwise, then please do.

You are the one claiming a god exists.

Specifically that god is everything.

That is your burden of proof that you've failed to meet.

My answer to the questions you've asked is, I don't know.

I don't know what, if anything, preceded the Big Bang.

I don't know the mechanism behind how inanimate material can conglomerate into life.

I don't know if there's an intrinsic reason why things are the way they are.

That being said, your assertions that a god did it are unwarranted in my opinion.

You are equating god with the Universe.

I've already asked how you've determined that the Universe, as a whole, is a cognizant being.

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11 minutes ago, Crazy Horse said:

No Buddhist Master would reject any idea with-out first addressing, pondering, and discussing it, especially one that claims to deal with such a short way to Enlightenment.

One doesn't need to know every single Buddhist Master to know that much.

And I was calling your ego ridiculous, you, are divine.

But the quote is very relevant still.

And, I have never told anyone to follow my beliefs etc, that is a lie. I very often say that its your choice..

Its certainly true that one doesn’t need to no every single Buddhist Master to learn anything, one will do. Because without instruction the Dharma Sutras are very difficult to understand at least for me. You see I need help to understand the interpretations as they are written, so that I am able to use critical thinking to form what I believe and what I do not choose to believe. It’s not because of my language skills, I speak 4 languages and one is Korean, it is because of the way the interpretations are written and translated from language to language over the last 2500 years.

Please don’t associate me with anything, you know nothing about me,:unsure: and the only person in this conversation who is responding in a manner that shows they are unwilling or unable to control their Ego is you. Sadly you prove this post after post and page after page, now it’s possible you do not understand what Ego is and how it manifests when one speaks or writes. If I may make a suggestion, maybe you should look up the definition familiarize yourself with it and instead of commenting to me you should go back through this thread and reread your own posts.:)

7DB511F6-3CAF-4884-8395-4F821BD108AE.jpeg

BA76BEA7-EA9C-44A7-BEF4-8E1B3331D5EC.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Crazy Horse said:

Samsara is the illusionary state of consciousness. Its the foundation of all our suffering, the "collective ego" one might say.

GOD is Unmovable, Substantial, and Essential.

From THAT, all things arise, and fall, and are therefore empty in nature. Except ones consciousness. Which is THAT spark of Divinity that Christ spoke about. 

"The Kingdom of Heaven within."

Its funny, strange, how the Buddha foretold how his dharma would only last 500 years before it became corrupted. Which also happened to be the time of the Christ.

 

 

 

 

33120E79-5928-42AE-B78E-46D24F5D15A5.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Crazy Horse said:

Compassionate reasoning and logical thought may take one only so far. After-which one must drop all thoughts etc..

And so, please can anyone reason how exactly the whole Universe came into being from nothing, and that life and intelligence, feelings and emotions were born from inanimate material?

This is a miracle worthy of any GOD.

But if you, or anyone else, can reasonably prove otherwise, then please do.

 

 

My first Buddhist teacher was very very intelligent and young in the scheme of all things. I asked why do Buddhists not believe Buddha was a God! He looked at me for a moment while he contemplated my question and said the reason Buddhists do not believe in or use the word God is because God spelled in reverse order is Dog and how can a Dog be Devine!:lol:

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1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

It begs the question as why such things as enlightenment, unification with "god", and salvation are supposedly so "important" to some people. 

To me self improvement is more important than anything else you mentioned above. My Karma is so polluted by my actions in this life time that Enlightenment and Nirvana are only words I am able write or speak but are certainly unobtainable for me for many life times to come!:lol:

Peace!:tu:

Edited by Manwon Lender
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1 hour ago, Crazy Horse said:

Compassionate reasoning and logical thought may take one only so far. After-which one must drop all thoughts etc..

And so, please can anyone reason how exactly the whole Universe came into being from nothing, and that life and intelligence, feelings and emotions were born from inanimate material?

This is a miracle worthy of any GOD.

But if you, or anyone else, can reasonably prove otherwise, then please do.

 

 

This explanation of the origin of the Universe is the best and most excepted model of our Universes creation that exists today!

Stephen Hawking Explains The Origin of the Universe: https://fs.blog/stephen-hawking-explains-origin-universe/

1 hour ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

We don't even know that the Universe came into being from nothing.

That may not even be possible.

All the constituent parts are made up of the material. From the elementary particle, to the atoms, to the elements and so forth. 

We seem to be a symptom of the universe.

Not really.

For all we know this is the only possible existence that can be.

And I don't see how existence of the universe or life or abstract thinking necessitates a being that had to create it.

That leads to a problem of infinite regression.

If the universe needed a creator, then wouldn't the creator need a creator? 

And if no, why the special pleading?

You are the one claiming a god exists.

Specifically that god is everything.

That is your burden of proof that you've failed to meet.

My answer to the questions you've asked is, I don't know.

I don't know what, if anything, preceded the Big Bang.

I don't know the mechanism behind how inanimate material can conglomerate into life.

I don't know if there's an intrinsic reason why things are the way they are.

That being said, your assertions that a god did it are unwarranted in my opinion.

You are equating god with the Universe.

I've already asked how you've determined that the Universe, as a whole, is a cognizant being.

 

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17 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

To me self improvement is more important than anything else you mentioned above. My Karma is so polluted by my actions in this life time that Enlightenment and Nirvana are only words I am able write or speak but are certainly unable to obtain!!:lol:

Peace!:tu:

Self improvement is a worthy goal. I get the feeling that those who have lofty aspirations miss the point of personal development. 

Kind of like "I'm only good because (insert reason here)."

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8 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

Self improvement is a worthy goal. I get the feeling that those who have lofty aspirations miss the point of personal development. 

Kind of like "I'm only good because (insert reason here)."

Yes sir I think you hit the nail with the first strike of the hammer, I could not agree more!:tu:

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