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docyabut2

Breonna Taylor case

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RoofGardener
34 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

Yes.  It hardly supports the conjecture of what the media "only" reports.  It raises the apprehension that it's more of a case of selective memory rather than selective reporting.

Backed by selective rioting.

There must have been scores of white or latino people killed by the police over the last year, but nobody burns Portland over it, so the media move on. 

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Manwon Lender
50 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Backed by selective rioting.

There must have been scores of white or latino people killed by the police over the last year, but nobody burns Portland over it, so the media move on. 

It's not the fact that many Whites, Latinos and many others have been killed by the police. It all comes down to the percentages of each group based upon the number these groups make up in the population. When you calculate this in this manner, far more Black Americans are killed by the Police than any other group on a annual basis, and that is a fact that can't be denied.

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quillius
9 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

It's not the fact that many Whites, Latinos and many others have been killed by the police. It all comes down to the percentages of each group based upon the number these groups make up in the population. When you calculate this in this manner, far more Black Americans are killed by the Police than any other group on a annual basis, and that is a fact that can't be denied.

I would like to see those stats you have.

I think it would also be prudent to consider the amount of crimes committed as a %.

For example if you only had 3 chinese people in the USA, and they all committed murder and were 2 were shot by police this would equate to 66% using your calculation when they only represent under 1% of population....so it could be viewed as 'racist' however when you see that 100% of that nationality committed crimes the 66% is low and should be higher!

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Manwon Lender
26 minutes ago, quillius said:

I would like to see those stats you have.

I think it would also be prudent to consider the amount of crimes committed as a %.

For example if you only had 3 chinese people in the USA, and they all committed murder and were 2 were shot by police this would equate to 66% using your calculation when they only represent under 1% of population....so it could be viewed as 'racist' however when you see that 100% of that nationality committed crimes the 66% is low and should be higher!

Here is  Peer Reviewed data that will explain my comments based upon Population, with many other factors added in. The comments President Trump has made concerning this issue is completely wrong. Read the article in the link, I think you will have a better understanding if the issue when you are done.

viewcontent.cgi?article=3660&=&context=f

 

 

 

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quillius
2 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Here is  Peer Reviewed data that will explain my comments based upon Population, with many other factors added in. The comments President Trump has made concerning this issue is completely wrong. Read the article in the link, I think you will have a better understanding if the issue when you are done.

viewcontent.cgi?article=3660&=&context=f

 

 

 

thanks but link not working?

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Manwon Lender
29 minutes ago, quillius said:

thanks but link not working?

Then type the title into a search engine and the article will be at your finger tips.:D

https://scholarship.law.columbia.edu/faculty_scholarship/2656/

29 minutes ago, quillius said:

thanks but link not working?

Here is another link, when you get to the page hit the download button and you will have the article.

https://scholarship.law.columbia.edu/faculty_scholarship/2656/

Take Care

Edited by Manwon Lender
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quillius
1 minute ago, Manwon Lender said:

Then type the title into a search engine and the article will be at your finger tips.:D

 

Here is another link, when you get to the page hit the download button and you will have the article.

https://scholarship.law.columbia.edu/faculty_scholarship/2656/

Take Care

ok thanks, running to a meeting now but will look at later and come back to you

 

cheers

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Manwon Lender
1 minute ago, quillius said:

ok thanks, running to a meeting now but will look at later and come back to you

 

cheers

Sounds good, have a good meeting.

Take care

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RoofGardener
3 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

It's not the fact that many Whites, Latinos and many others have been killed by the police. It all comes down to the percentages of each group based upon the number these groups make up in the population. When you calculate this in this manner, far more Black Americans are killed by the Police than any other group on a annual basis, and that is a fact that can't be denied.

That is true. More blacks have 'police interactions' PER HEAD OF POPULATION than whites. However, that then begs the question "why", which leads us down a dangerous slope. You COULD argue that the police are racist (even the black and/or latino ones ? ), or you could argue that criminal behaviour is more prelevant in the black population. 

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime

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quillius
5 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

Here is  Peer Reviewed data that will explain my comments based upon Population, with many other factors added in. The comments President Trump has made concerning this issue is completely wrong. Read the article in the link, I think you will have a better understanding if the issue when you are done.

viewcontent.cgi?article=3660&=&context=f

 

 

 

ok I have briefly read the paper and cannot see the disparity you allude to apart from the interpretation of the author of the stats.

For example we can see 2/3rds of black men killed were armed, where as half of white men killed were armed.....

 

also do we think the police force is sexist? if not then why are there only 5% of those killed female? could it be men are more pre disposed to commit crimes and higher level of aggressiveness?

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Myles
3 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

That is true. More blacks have 'police interactions' PER HEAD OF POPULATION than whites. However, that then begs the question "why", which leads us down a dangerous slope. You COULD argue that the police are racist (even the black and/or latino ones ? ), or you could argue that criminal behaviour is more prelevant in the black population. 

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime

Agree that it is a slippery slope and will be perceived as racist.   I think the gap could be decreased in some reasonable ways.   I still feel like there are racist cops and the gap between black and white deaths cannot be totally closed.   But it can close a little.

First would be where people live.  Most people in rural communities don't interact with police as much.  You are not close to neighbors who may call the cops.  There is less crime.  Most of these people are white.  I live in a city of 10,000 people and there are a few hundred black people.  They do not interact with the police any more than the white people or Latinos.  I think it is because of a more spread out area.  I've been here 20 years and there has not been any cases of a cop killing anyone.  Rarely is someone drunk in public (maybe at a bar).  If people want to party they hang out at there house and maybe have a fire.  Not much reason to interact with the cops.   Inner city is a different animal.  I suppose a breakdown of rural and urban killings of whites and blacks would be needed.  

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quillius
6 minutes ago, Myles said:

Agree that it is a slippery slope and will be perceived as racist.   I think the gap could be decreased in some reasonable ways.   I still feel like there are racist cops and the gap between black and white deaths cannot be totally closed.   But it can close a little.

First would be where people live.  Most people in rural communities don't interact with police as much.  You are not close to neighbors who may call the cops.  There is less crime.  Most of these people are white.  I live in a city of 10,000 people and there are a few hundred black people.  They do not interact with the police any more than the white people or Latinos.  I think it is because of a more spread out area.  I've been here 20 years and there has not been any cases of a cop killing anyone.  Rarely is someone drunk in public (maybe at a bar).  If people want to party they hang out at there house and maybe have a fire.  Not much reason to interact with the cops.   Inner city is a different animal.  I suppose a breakdown of rural and urban killings of whites and blacks would be needed.  

what is also interesting in the mindset that is being enforced by groups such as BLM...ie cops kill black men......I remember someone on this thread wrote because he is black when he hears sirens behind and the police are pulling him over he thinks 'is this when I will die'...........this is the mindset that is wrong..the officer is 18.5 times more likely to be killed with this traffic stop than the black driver is. However due to this false mindset the black guy is more likely to run/resist arrest or basically not comply and do something stupid that increases his chances of being shot.......

So this mindset/culture that has developed will sadly only do the opposite of the (non-existent) fear that exists...nice one BLM....

Edited by quillius
edit to add: its not the fear that is non-existent its the reality of that fear
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DieChecker
12 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

It's not the fact that many Whites, Latinos and many others have been killed by the police. It all comes down to the percentages of each group based upon the number these groups make up in the population. When you calculate this in this manner, far more Black Americans are killed by the Police than any other group on a annual basis, and that is a fact that can't be denied.

And do you believe that the percentage difference is entirely due to racism? Would a entirely black police force, led by an entirely black government create less black deaths. Or is there more to it?

Myself, I think that blacks are told their going to be given a hard time by the cops. And so they run, or resist, sometimes violently, which then leads DIRECTLY to increased chance of being shot, or killed. It's a self fulfilling fear.

Are there racist cops and judges out there? YES. Are most cops and judges racist? I'd say NO. I'm partial to the sub-culture idea where poverty has led young black people to rever criminals, single parents, and a lack of responsibility, as being normal.

I'd also agree, that despite such an opinion being highly evidenced, its the default response to simply scream racism, like a 4 year old, rather then admit there is anything wrong in their community.

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docyabut2

Kentucky’s Black Republican attorney general comes under fire in Breonna Taylor probe

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2020/09/29/kentuckys-black-republican-attorney-general-comes-under-fire-in-breonna-taylor-probe/24634252/

Why doesn't the BLM go after that black man that started the shootings .

 

Edited by docyabut2
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Manwon Lender
4 hours ago, DieChecker said:

And do you believe that the percentage difference is entirely due to racism? Would a entirely black police force, led by an entirely black government create less black deaths. Or is there more to it?

Myself, I think that blacks are told their going to be given a hard time by the cops. And so they run, or resist, sometimes violently, which then leads DIRECTLY to increased chance of being shot, or killed. It's a self fulfilling fear.

Are there racist cops and judges out there? YES. Are most cops and judges racist? I'd say NO. I'm partial to the sub-culture idea where poverty has led young black people to rever criminals, single parents, and a lack of responsibility, as being normal.

I'd also agree, that despite such an opinion being highly evidenced, its the default response to simply scream racism, like a 4 year old, rather then admit there is anything wrong in their community.

I never said that it was do to racism, only that more Black Americans are killed by police than any other segment of Americas population. I think some of your comments are correct, but I don't have all the answers.

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Manwon Lender
10 hours ago, quillius said:

ok I have briefly read the paper and cannot see the disparity you allude to apart from the interpretation of the author of the stats.

For example we can see 2/3rds of black men killed were armed, where as half of white men killed were armed.....

 

also do we think the police force is sexist? if not then why are there only 5% of those killed female? could it be men are more pre disposed to commit crimes and higher level of aggressiveness?

My comment was pretty simple, all I said was that more Black Americans are killed by police than other segments of the population which is true. I don't claim to understand why this is occurring and I am not basing my comments on any racist agenda. I do understand what you are saying, about the situations the article breaks it all down to. But, the fact remains that it occurs very frequently year after year. Like you say, and others have said it could be the fact that many of those killed are armed. It the end this is a topic where many factors do play a major role, and I don't claim to have all the answers.

Did you enjoy the article?

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aztek
3 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

 

Why doesn't the BLM go after that black man that started the shootings .

 

what for? he had every right to shot. that is why neither blm nor DA go after him

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DieChecker
3 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

I never said that it was do to racism, only that more Black Americans are killed by police than any other segment of Americas population. I think some of your comments are correct, but I don't have all the answers.

That being true. I hope my post outlined a bit of the "Why" that is so. Its been hot topic going back before Obama was President, and even he didn't affect the percentages much.

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Manwon Lender
4 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

That being true. I hope my post outlined a bit of the "Why" that is so. Its been hot topic going back before Obama was President, and even he didn't affect the percentages much.

Yes your post did, but I think that much more to it. I like the way the Peer Reviewed article I am posting a link to breaks it down.

https://scholarship.law.columbia.edu/faculty_scholarship/2656/

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DieChecker
16 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Yes your post did, but I think that much more to it. I like the way the Peer Reviewed article I am posting a link to breaks it down.

https://scholarship.law.columbia.edu/faculty_scholarship/2656/

I read the abstract. And I would tend to agree with the findings and the suggestions. As far as they go. But, the paper seems to only focus on the police, and a police interaction with the public is an interaction with the police AND the public. The person interacting with the police is a big part of the equation. 

I think understanding that the police function within limitations required to do their job is necessary when looking at the numbers.

What should we do? Ignore Black drivers exceeding the speed limit? Ignore Black drug dealers? Ignore Black murderers? Ignore Black criminals in the hope that when equivalent percentages of arrests is achieved, they'll fit themselves into those percentages? Crime will magically decrease?

Crime will likely be the same, or worse, but at least those pesky numbers will finally be politically correct. 

Conservative - We need everyone to be treated the same.

Liberal - That's racist!

Edited by DieChecker
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Manwon Lender
4 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I read the abstract. And I would tend to agree with the findings and the suggestions. As far as they go. But, the paper seems to only focus on the police, and a police interaction with the public is an interaction with the police AND the public. The person interacting with the police is a big part of the equation. 

I think understanding that the police function within limitations required to do their job is necessary when looking at the numbers.

What should we do? Ignore Black drivers exceeding the speed limit? Ignore Black drug dealers? Ignore Black murderers? Ignore Black criminals in the hope that when equivalent percentages of arrests is achieved, they'll fit themselves into those percentages? Crime will magically decrease?

Crime will likely be the same, or worse, but at least those pesky numbers will finally be politically correct. 

Conservative - We need everyone to be treated the same.

Liberal - That's racist!

Whether you agree with the paper or not it goes into the subject better than anyone here has. If you have a better article that focuses on Americans killed by the police that is also Peer Reviewed please post it, I would like to get all the information I can on the subject.

As far as, your questions above that article did not just focus on Black Americans, it focused on all Americans shoot by the police. They also did use politics to as a base for there comments, and if you read the entire article you would have seen that they did discuss the limitations involved in the police doing their job.

Sorry you thought the article wasn't useful.:)

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RoofGardener

 

9 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

Kentucky’s Black Republican attorney general comes under fire in Breonna Taylor probe

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2020/09/29/kentuckys-black-republican-attorney-general-comes-under-fire-in-breonna-taylor-probe/24634252/

Why doesn't the BLM go after that black man that started the shootings .

 

There is a VERY telling quote in that article. One protester said...

 "...He's a Black man first and he did not do right by a Black woman,” she said. “That’s why we are saying, we don't like Daniel Cameron.”

In other words, she is suggesting that his "blackness" should have over-ridden his sense of duty as an attorney-general. That his loyalty to his skin colour should over-ride his practicing of the law. That a black atorney-general should be biased towards black people in the execution of his office. 

And it is THAT attitude by black people, and 'liberal' fellow-travellers, that could tear America apart. 

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quillius
7 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

My comment was pretty simple, all I said was that more Black Americans are killed by police than other segments of the population which is true. I don't claim to understand why this is occurring and I am not basing my comments on any racist agenda. I do understand what you are saying, about the situations the article breaks it all down to. But, the fact remains that it occurs very frequently year after year. Like you say, and others have said it could be the fact that many of those killed are armed. It the end this is a topic where many factors do play a major role, and I don't claim to have all the answers.

Did you enjoy the article?

Yes the article was ok...the more information the better :) 

With regards to more black americans are killed than other segments of the population. As I mentioned this is the same for male/female....

Males are responsible for 95% of the violent crimes and this supports the fact that 95% of people killed by police are male.

When you look at black Americans killed versus the number of black Americans causing violent crimes then the stats are not as balanced...we would expect a higher number of black americans to be killed by police offers so it represents the same number(%) as those causing violent crimes (rather than basing it on % of population)......so it could be argued that the police are extra soft on black americans......which could be a result of the false narrative being pushed by the media.

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Manwon Lender
15 minutes ago, quillius said:

Yes the article was ok...the more information the better :) 

With regards to more black americans are killed than other segments of the population. As I mentioned this is the same for male/female....

Males are responsible for 95% of the violent crimes and this supports the fact that 95% of people killed by police are male.

When you look at black Americans killed versus the number of black Americans causing violent crimes then the stats are not as balanced...we would expect a higher number of black americans to be killed by police offers so it represents the same number(%) as those causing violent crimes (rather than basing it on % of population)......so it could be argued that the police are extra soft on black americans......which could be a result of the false narrative being pushed by the media.

That certainly could be possible, but it seems that the data used was from 2012 to I think 2017. As far as the police being extra soft on Black Americans, I think that is a interpretation. I don't believe that was the intent of the authors of the paper in question. I wish there was more data on this subject, but almost everything found online is not in anyway peer reviewed work. So again this subject is up for interpretation, and to prove it either way is currently not possible.

Thanks you very much for your comments, and you thoughts on the subject.

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quillius
8 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

That certainly could be possible, but it seems that the data used was from 2012 to I think 2017. As far as the police being extra soft on Black Americans, I think that is a interpretation. I don't believe that was the intent of the authors of the paper in question. I wish there was more data on this subject, but almost everything found online is not in anyway peer reviewed work. So again this subject is up for interpretation, and to prove it either way is currently not possible.

Thanks you very much for your comments, and you thoughts on the subject.

I think its all interpretations of data......one part from what you said '' that was the intent of the authors'' - this is problematic, to interpret data in an unbiased way requires there to be no intent, if you begin with intent, or trying to prove a or b then you will interpret data in such a way that suits the intent.....I am not however saying this is what they did just pointing out the comment you made suggesting this.

in simple terms if we use overall numbers (again this is fallible due to the myriad of factors that would need considering)

black americans - account for 54% of violent crime, they account for 13% of population. Deaths by officers of black Americans = 30%......this simplistic method shows what I was alluding earlier that there should be more black americans killed by police as a % of those killed by police.

although I would add tis is a very crude and simplistic method/analysis but I agree that the more data we have the more likely we are of seeing if the narrative being proposed by the media et al is correct.....

One interesting question would be if the data showed that the black americans were treated softer than whites by police rather than the systemic racism proposed..what happens next? (hopefully people will return the trainers and TVs back to stores and rebuild the mess they created)

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