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docyabut2

Breonna Taylor case

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Manwon Lender
27 minutes ago, quillius said:

I think its all interpretations of data......one part from what you said '' that was the intent of the authors'' - this is problematic, to interpret data in an unbiased way requires there to be no intent, if you begin with intent, or trying to prove a or b then you will interpret data in such a way that suits the intent.....I am not however saying this is what they did just pointing out the comment you made suggesting this.

in simple terms if we use overall numbers (again this is fallible due to the myriad of factors that would need considering)

black americans - account for 54% of violent crime, they account for 13% of population. Deaths by officers of black Americans = 30%......this simplistic method shows what I was alluding earlier that there should be more black americans killed by police as a % of those killed by police.

although I would add tis is a very crude and simplistic method/analysis but I agree that the more data we have the more likely we are of seeing if the narrative being proposed by the media et al is correct.....

One interesting question would be if the data showed that the black americans were treated softer than whites by police rather than the systemic racism proposed..what happens next? (hopefully people will return the trainers and TVs back to stores and rebuild the mess they created)

As far as what happens next, that is the question of the century. Because it seems that what is happening now has happened over and over again in Americas past. It has been said that if you forget historical events of this nature, they will repeat themselves. But in this case none of what has happened was forgotten, and yet history keeps repeating itself. I am uncertain that the problem is systemic racism, I feel the real problem is inaction. Every time an event like this occurs the government, both federal and state bring forward solutions to fix the problems that have created the situation. 

Then sadly nothing is ever done, and everything is focused on other issues. This causes the spark that started that started the fire to smolder, and as time goes by that spark again becomes a flame and bursts forth all over again. Some how our government has to find a solution instead of just pushing the problem aside. That is the only way to end the problem once and for all, but I am afraid that there is no end in sight in the near future, and when this finally ends, if it does, it will only be a matter of time before it all starts again.

JIMO

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quillius
13 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

As far as what happens next, that is the question of the century. Because it seems that what is happening now has happened over and over again in Americas past. It has been said that if you forget historical events of this nature, they will repeat themselves. But in this case none of what has happened was forgotten, and yet history keeps repeating itself. I am uncertain that the problem is systemic racism, I feel the real problem is inaction. Every time an event like this occurs the government, both federal and state bring forward solutions to fix the problems that have created the situation. 

Then sadly nothing is ever done, and everything is focused on other issues. This causes the spark that started that started the fire to smolder, and as time goes by that spark again becomes a flame and bursts forth all over again. Some how our government has to find a solution instead of just pushing the problem aside. That is the only way to end the problem once and for all, but I am afraid that there is no end in sight in the near future, and when this finally ends, if it does, it will only be a matter of time before it all starts again.

JIMO

I think you missed my point.....the point was you need to first determine 'what is happening' ...the data could suggest as I pointed out that the narrative needs to stop and the police need to be as harsh with black americans as they are with white americans...this is the complete opposite of what is being protested/rioted about and what you are saying.

I suggested that if black americans are getting preferential treatement...ie the police are softer then what happens next? will there be protests that 'white lives matter' or that 'police need to become harsher (more equal in their treatment of black americans>?)

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Manwon Lender
15 minutes ago, quillius said:

I think you missed my point.....the point was you need to first determine 'what is happening' ...the data could suggest as I pointed out that the narrative needs to stop and the police need to be as harsh with black americans as they are with white americans...this is the complete opposite of what is being protested/rioted about and what you are saying.

I suggested that if black americans are getting preferential treatement...ie the police are softer then what happens next? will there be protests that 'white lives matter' or that 'police need to become harsher (more equal in their treatment of black americans>?)

I did not miss your point, I just don't agree with it to be honest. I don't beleive at all that Americas police are being softer in their actions towards Black Americans. I was in a situation as a teenager were I was exposed first hand to the difference in treatment between White and Black Americans. I grew up in St.Louis Missouri, and being a big city St. Louis had it good and bad parts of town. One night me and some friends wandered into a very bad part of town, to do some under age drinking. Well we got into a altercation with some Black Americans, someone called the police and when they arrived there was completely different treatment for us and the Black Americans. 

We were all guilty of the same offense, which was fighting in a public place. But, the Black Americans were taken to jail and we were told to go home and not come back to that part if city again. Also during my military career, I had Black Soldiers that were arrested for offenses that White Soldiers were not arrested for. This happened on more than one occasion, and in different states. So I beleive that Black Americans are in many cases treated differently by police than White Americans are. Like I said I am uncertain that it is because of systemic racism, but I do beleive that racism does play a part in some of the situations I have seen in my life time.

So like I said above, I don't agree with your ideas concerning this issue because I have never seen the situation you describe occur. So as far as .I am concerned we can agree to disagree on this subject, and I see no reason to continue our conversation any further. Again thanks for your thoughts on the subject, and maybe your right, however I have never seen a scenario like you have described play out in real life.

Take Care 

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quillius
1 minute ago, Manwon Lender said:

I did not miss your point, I just don't agree with it to be honest. I don't beleive at all that Americas police are being softer in their actions towards Black Americans. I was in a situation as a teenager were I was exposed first hand to the difference in treatment between White and Black Americans. I grew up in St.Louis Missouri, and being a big city St. Louis had it good and bad parts of town. One night me and some friends wandered into a very bad part of town, to do some under age drinking. Well we got into a altercation with some Black Americans, someone called the police and when they arrived there was completely different treatment for us and the Black Americans. 

We were all guilty of the same offense, which was fighting in a public place. But, the Black Americans were taken to jail and we were told to go home and not come back to that part if city again. Also during my military career, I had Black Soldiers that were arrested for offenses that White Soldiers were not arrested for. This happened on more than one occasion, and in different states. So I beleive that Black Americans are in many cases treated differently by police than White Americans are. Like I said I am uncertain that it is because of systemic racism, but I do beleive that racism does play a part in some of the situations I have seen in my life time.

So like I said above, I don't agree with your ideas concerning this issue because I have never seen the situation you describe occur. So as far as .I am concerned we can agree to disagree on this subject, and I see no reason to continue our conversation any further. Again thanks for your thoughts on the subject, and maybe your right, however I have never seen a scenario like you have described play out in real life.

Take Care 

sadly personal experience doesnt count for much when talking about a country as a whole....its way too small of a sample to determine anything....hence why its just personal experience..

I would be interested to see why you dont agree - ie I posted the figures......why do 54% of those committing the violent offences only account for 30% of those killed by officers?

Saying black Americans account for only 13% of the population so shouldnt be 30% of the deaths is misleading.......you need to compare the % of crimes that are committed to those being killed and these stats suggest as I say....so ignoring personal belief or experience how else can you account for this disparity?

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Hawken
On 9/28/2020 at 9:58 PM, Golden Duck said:

I distinctly remember the killing of Justine Damond was reported.

Yes, and I don't recall any riots, looting and arson in major cities.

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Golden Duck
1 minute ago, Hawken said:

Yes, and I don't recall any riots, looting and arson in major cities.

Well, if that was your point why didn't you say so in the first place?

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Hawken
2 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

Well, if that was your point why didn't you say so in the first place?

I figured an image can speak for itself. Apparently you didn't get it.

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Golden Duck
11 minutes ago, Hawken said:

I figured an image can speak for itself. Apparently you didn't get it.

So an image with police arresting someone - with no looting, rioting, or arson - accompanied by a comment that assert media never reports when a white person is killed by police - was really about looting, rioting, and arson.  Got it, thanks.

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Hawken

JD.jpg

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Golden Duck
23 hours ago, Hawken said:

JD.jpg

You were talking about selective reporting and now you're talking about rioting.

That's called shifting the goal post. 

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Tatetopa
On 9/30/2020 at 1:59 AM, quillius said:

black americans - account for 54% of violent crime, they account for 13% of population. Deaths by officers of black Americans = 30%......this simplistic method shows what I was alluding earlier that there should be more black americans killed by police as a % of those killed by police.

I am not sure that your numbers are related.

First of all, execution of suspected felons is not one of the primary duties of Police Officers.  LEO's are supposed prevent or terminate violent situations if possible  and to apprehend suspects and deliver them over into the legal system for trial and penalty if found guilty.  It is perfectly justifiable for a LEO to use lethal force in the course of apprehension if the LEO or civilians are exposed to life threatening circumstances.

Not all suspects who commit violent crime offer lethal resistance to arrest.  Running or punching a police officer in the face, especially with other officers present is not lethal resistance.   Drawing a knife or firearm would be lethal resistance.    I did not see statistics for violent resistance in the report.  Do 10% of those who commit violent crimes violently resist arrest, or do 80%.  What does the category of violent crimes include?  Most places, beating somebody up in public or mugging them to steal their wallet would be considered violent crimes.

Secondly, I did not see a link in the study between suspects killed by police and suspected commission of violent crimes.    You seem to assume that there is a correlation between commission of violent crimes and police caused fatality,  but it is not detailed, at least in the abstract I read.

You have pointed out that personal experience is a poor measure and I concur.  Yet, I find it hard to resist stating  that the Walmart shooter, Dylan Roof who killed a number of people in a church, and most school shooters surrender or are captured alive even though they are guilty of mass murders. That is about as violent as you can get.   Not all who commit violent crimes violently resist arrest.  Numbers would be good here.

If you had statistics on who resists violently, and what the police considered violent resistance in each case, you might not be on such shaky ground with your reach of logic.

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quillius
11 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

I am not sure that your numbers are related.

First of all, execution of suspected felons is not one of the primary duties of Police Officers.  LEO's are supposed prevent or terminate violent situations if possible  and to apprehend suspects and deliver them over into the legal system for trial and penalty if found guilty.  It is perfectly justifiable for a LEO to use lethal force in the course of apprehension if the LEO or civilians are exposed to life threatening circumstances.

Not all suspects who commit violent crime offer lethal resistance to arrest.  Running or punching a police officer in the face, especially with other officers present is not lethal resistance.   Drawing a knife or firearm would be lethal resistance.    I did not see statistics for violent resistance in the report.  Do 10% of those who commit violent crimes violently resist arrest, or do 80%.  What does the category of violent crimes include?  Most places, beating somebody up in public or mugging them to steal their wallet would be considered violent crimes.

Secondly, I did not see a link in the study between suspects killed by police and suspected commission of violent crimes.    You seem to assume that there is a correlation between commission of violent crimes and police caused fatality,  but it is not detailed, at least in the abstract I read.

You have pointed out that personal experience is a poor measure and I concur.  Yet, I find it hard to resist stating  that the Walmart shooter, Dylan Roof who killed a number of people in a church, and most school shooters surrender or are captured alive even though they are guilty of mass murders. That is about as violent as you can get.   Not all who commit violent crimes violently resist arrest.  Numbers would be good here.

If you had statistics on who resists violently, and what the police considered violent resistance in each case, you might not be on such shaky ground with your reach of logic.

Hello Tatetopa, thank you for your detailed response.  I actually agree with the majority of what yo have said. Whilst I understand that the reach of my logic is on shaky ground, I was pointing out that the opposite reach of logic that was put forth was also on shaky ground hence my response. I was responding to the assertion that you cannot say x number of black men killed by police is too high as they equate to only Y of the population. I flipped the stats and showed they could be interpreted in the opposite way...without the granular detail and variables as you have put forth any conclusion reached will be 'on shaky ground'.....

So in essence your post has proven the point I was trying to get across, albeit you articulated it in a far better way. so thanks 

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docyabut2

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2020/10/02/grand-jury-recordings-released-in-breonna-taylor-case/24638150/

Louisville police have said that they announced themselves before entering Taylor's apartment, which Cameron said during a news conference last week was corroborated by a civilian witness.

 

At last week's news conference, Cameron said his "investigation showed, and the grand jury agreed, that Mattingly and Cosgrove were justified in their return of deadly fire after having been fired upon" by Walker.

 

Edited by docyabut2
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aztek
27 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

https://www.aol.com/article/news/2020/10/02/grand-jury-recordings-released-in-breonna-taylor-case/24638150/

Louisville police have said that they announced themselves before entering Taylor's apartment, which Cameron said during a news conference last week was corroborated by a civilian witness.

 

At last week's news conference, Cameron said his "investigation showed, and the grand jury agreed, that Mattingly and Cosgrove were justified in their return of deadly fire after having been fired upon" by Walker.

 

right lol, police said that and 1 out 11 witnesses,  so that must be true, sure.

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Tatetopa
On 9/30/2020 at 1:59 AM, quillius said:

One interesting question would be if the data showed that the black americans were treated softer than whites by police rather than the systemic racism proposed..what happens next? (hopefully people will return the trainers and TVs back to stores and rebuild the mess they created)

From the abstract of the citation @Manwon Lender listed, the study found blacks twice as likely to be killed by police as other ethnicities.   Their statistics and their conclusion.

One could examine the statistics and see if the logic holds true, or do the research themselves and write their own conclusion.  That is more work than I am willing to go through.  So, I will take their findings.  If I said "I just don't believe it", and stack a 10 second opinion up against a research paper,  I think logical people would likely just dismiss my opinion as not backed by facts.

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Myles

 

 

Thousands of newly released Louisville police files shed new light on the internal investigation conducted following the fatal police-involved shooting of Breonna Taylor and show contacts between the young woman and a man she dated previously who was suspected of drug dealing.

 

The Louisville Metro Police Department on Wednesday released extensive testimony and other evidence, which includes conflicting information about when the contacts ended between Taylor and her ex-boyfriend, Jamarcus Glover.

In a recorded jailhouse conversation on the day she died, Glover said he and Taylor had not “been around each other in over two months.”

“I ain’t got nothing going on with Bre no more,” he told a woman whose name was redacted from the report.

But other evidence suggests Taylor and Glover were together in the same vehicle a month before her March 13 death. According to the evidence, a pole camera showed Glover driving a car registered to Taylor on Feb. 13. He pulled up in front of a residence and went inside. A few minutes later, Taylor got out of the passenger side of the car, looked around for a few seconds, and then got back in the vehicle. Glover soon left the home, got back in the car, and drove off.

 

Taylor, a 26-year-old Black woman who worked as an emergency medical worker, lived with her sister in an apartment in Louisville. She and her then-boyfriend, Kenneth Walker, were in her bedroom on the night of March 13 when police came to her door with a narcotics warrant.

Kentucky Attorney General Daniel Cameron, a Republican and the state’s first Black attorney general, previously said Louisville Metro Police Sgt. John Mattingly entered Taylor’s home after the door had been broken in. Walker then allegedly shot him in the leg, later explaining that he thought an intruder was breaking in, according to reports.

 

Mattingly, Detective Brett Hankison and Detective Myles Cosgrove then returned fire; Taylor was shot six times, Cameron said.

For months, the raid had been characterized in reports and by officials as the execution of a "no-knock warrant," meaning law enforcement officers enter without knocking or announcing themselves. But Cameron later clarified that officers did knock because of the sensitive nature of the investigation before breaking down the door, according to a neighbor in the building.

Taylor’s name came up in the drug case at least in part because she had posted bail a few times from 2017 to January 2020 for Glover and another defendant, Darreal Forest, in amounts that went as high as $5,000, according to police files released Wednesday.

 

https://www.foxnews.com/us/breonna-taylor-louisville-police-release-investigation

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bmk1245

Leaked report: Breonna Taylor handled money for Jamarcus Glover

Hmm, interesting...

And from 39-page summary report linked in the article:

J. Glover says to B. Taylor, “You talk to Doug (Adrian Walker)?”
B. Taylor says to J. Glover, “Yeah I did. He said he was already back
at the trap
… then I talked to him again just a minute ago to see if you
had contacted him. They couldn’t post bond till one.”

Basically, she was accomplice to a felony/misdemeanor. Kinda, gives some perspective.

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the13bats
34 minutes ago, bmk1245 said:

Basically, she was accomplice to a felony/misdemeanor. Kinda, gives some perspective

Oh, so the cops were are the correct address when they killed her?

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glorybebe

Cops release photos that were tagged 'partners in crime' from Breonna Taylor's boyfriend's phone that show them both holding gun believed to be the one he used to fire at police as messages also suggest he was selling drugs

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8816249/Louisville-police-release-details-Taylor-investigation.html

No, I will say it once again, she didn't deserve to die, but bad choices put her into a lifestyle that opened her to danger.   You play with the gangsters,  someone will come to your door.

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the13bats
2 hours ago, glorybebe said:

Cops release photos that were tagged 'partners in crime' from Breonna Taylor's boyfriend's phone that show them both holding gun believed to be the one he used to fire at police as messages also suggest he was selling drugs

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8816249/Louisville-police-release-details-Taylor-investigation.html

No, I will say it once again, she didn't deserve to die, but bad choices put her into a lifestyle that opened her to danger.   You play with the gangsters,  someone will come to your door.

If she was your daughter you would likely be saying these very same things and i admire your objectivity and reach to defend LEOs who bumbled up and caused a women to die, remember, they nailed the wrong house, so coming to her door this time was a failure on the police

 

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glorybebe
3 hours ago, the13bats said:

If she was your daughter you would likely be saying these very same things and i admire your objectivity and reach to defend LEOs who bumbled up and caused a women to die, remember, they nailed the wrong house, so coming to her door this time was a failure on the police

 

MY daughter would not have associated with drug dealers.  I love my daughter and taught her right from wrong.  I also taught her that one wrong decision could domino.  People HAVE to start taking responsibility for their actions.  The police can't be blamed for everything.   Yes, there are bad cops.  But, if you choose to engage in illegal activities, you can't expect to not put yourself in danger. 

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the13bats
48 minutes ago, glorybebe said:

MY daughter would not have associated with drug dealers.  I love my daughter and taught her right from wrong.  I also taught her that one wrong decision could domino.  People HAVE to start taking responsibility for their actions.  The police can't be blamed for everything.   Yes, there are bad cops.  But, if you choose to engage in illegal activities, you can't expect to not put yourself in danger. 

You hope your daughter wouldnt do that just as taylors mom likely hoped that of her child, taylors actions might have one day caught up to her but this time the cops mucked up, wrong house.

You sound like one of those who will paint yourself into a little box to defend LEOs no matter what and so will i if they deserve defense,

You conveniently and not surprisingly avoid the great big issue with this case, the cops had the wrong house, who got the address or house wrong? The cops.

So i just bet your tune would change if your daughter was in her home and cops got the address house wrong busted in her door and killed her.

Someone got the wrong house in this case and thats the person to blame not singing little damming songs of how the victim had any part in this, she didnt, face it in this case LEO failed epic and a death resulted from Their incompetence.

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glorybebe
15 minutes ago, the13bats said:

You hope your daughter wouldnt do that just as taylors mom likely hoped that of her child, taylors actions might have one day caught up to her but this time the cops mucked up, wrong house.

You sound like one of those who will paint yourself into a little box to defend LEOs no matter what and so will i if they deserve defense,

You conveniently and not surprisingly avoid the great big issue with this case, the cops had the wrong house, who got the address or house wrong? The cops.

So i just bet your tune would change if your daughter was in her home and cops got the address house wrong busted in her door and killed her.

Someone got the wrong house in this case and thats the person to blame not singing little damming songs of how the victim had any part in this, she didnt, face it in this case LEO failed epic and a death resulted from Their incompetence.

You obviously haven't done extensive reading about how much Breonna was involved in her ex's business.   I have and I have posted about it.  I will not defend police when they are in the wrong,  but this situation was not 100 % their fault.   She was let go from her job when drugs disappeared,  she rented a car a dead man was found in, she was being investigated.  You have blinders on wanting the big bad police to be at fault.   She made bad choices, unfortunately they led the police to her door

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the13bats
27 minutes ago, glorybebe said:

You obviously haven't done extensive reading about how much Breonna was involved in her ex's business.   I have and I have posted about it.  I will not defend police when they are in the wrong,  but this situation was not 100 % their fault.   She was let go from her job when drugs disappeared,  she rented a car a dead man was found in, she was being investigated.  You have blinders on wanting the big bad police to be at fault.   She made bad choices, unfortunately they led the police to her door

I had started to reply something didnt sit right, so i re read your reply

You boasted you did extensive reading about this case you are correct i havent until just now read anything past this thread about this case so i did, here,

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/09/24/breonna-taylor-fact-check-rumors-wrong/3515068001/

My epic blunder, i fell for misinformation i thought the police were at her address by mistake but as it turns out her name and address were on a warrant, so my whole defense the cops were at the wrong address was wrong and not once did you catch that and correct me, the extent of my reading to learn of my error was 10mins,

So sure i admit when im wrong, and since they had a warrant and her name was on their "list" of people to bust i humbly withdrawn the police were at fault, i really dont care if they were suppose to knock or not, you are correct her lifestyle got her name on a list and her choices got her killed.

 

 

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Myles
8 hours ago, the13bats said:

 

My epic blunder, i fell for misinformation i thought the police were at her address by mistake but as it turns out her name and address were on a warrant, so my whole defense the cops were at the wrong address was wrong and not once did you catch that and correct me, the extent of my reading to learn of my error was 10mins,

So sure i admit when im wrong, and since they had a warrant and her name was on their "list" of people to bust i humbly withdrawn the police were at fault, i really dont care if they were suppose to knock or not, you are correct her lifestyle got her name on a list and her choices got her killed.

 

 

The cops are not totally innocent in this though.   Seemed poorly planned out and the cop who fired blindly was not good.   

The root cause is her associating and helping criminals.   

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