Possible Reason's For Ghost

[Mr Walker]

7 minutes ago, the13bats said:

Its a shame that all you have are beliefs and stories zero proof of any of it.

Its always the same symptom though guys like you always think you are a little more special than the rest of the heard.

Untrue .I have evidences and proofs from  my own life 

You arent required to believe that,  but i KNOW what is true and real 

When i tell you ANYTHING about my life (or you do the same for me)  we know the truth while the listener does not The listener always has to choose to believe or disbelieve I cant prove ANYTHING to you unless you  are willing tot be convinced.  Ive got a meal in the oven right now but i couldn't prove it to youi f you were  not willing to be convinced 

If we apply the logic you use here, universally, then noone should EVER believe anything that anyone else told them

lol Im not special or unusual Most humans have encountered at least one   ghost. It is unusual if you have not 

[openozy]

3 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Nope. I have looked I'm earnest too when my father passed on. It's what lead me to really look into the idea, how it came about, and how valid it was. Humans have left a fairly decent record to follow on this subject. I find one can see the evolution of the myth as many cultures played with it over the centuries. 

What I can't find is any good reason to believe it's more than human wanting personified. It's clearly a rehashed old idea that has been revised to seem more viable as people started to question it. 

A genuine earnest in depth search (I think it was about 5 years of personal digging) revealed that the sciences paint a very different picture to philosophers. The sciences are supported, philosophies are often just a wild thought. That's what research teaches me in this case. 

Have you ever had something inspire you to look at the idea in great depth and detail? 

That's probably why you haven't seen something,you are looking too hard.These experiences don't jump to our command,that also rules out your wanting idea.I don't really get the last question but my whole life with paranormal experiences has inspired me to listen to other people who have these accounts,it has nothing to do with science(at this stage).

[Mr Walker]

20 minutes ago, the13bats said:

Prove it.

wombats are real.  

[psyche101]

7 minutes ago, openozy said:

That's probably why you haven't seen something,you are looking too hard.These experiences don't jump to our command,that also rules out your wanting idea.I don't really get the last question but my whole life with paranormal experiences has inspired me to listen to other people who have these accounts,it has nothing to do with science(at this stage).

Not to begin with. My father passed away when I was around 40. I lived my life with my mother and sisters (broken family) who were strong proponents. Untill I was in my 20s, I didn't even consider it as anything but real. Quite a religious orientated upbringing too. 

I honestly think if you revisited those experiences in earnest now, you might be able to consider other reasons that didn't occur to you at the time. It's easier to be more rational in retrospect. I don't trust people, I don't trust stories. Historically that bites me on the bum more often than I care to mention. Science doesn't lie, and I can prove what I learn for myself. Harder work sure, but much more satisfying. Science doesn't ever let me down. I can't tell you how many times anecdotes have though.

Edited October 22, 2020 by psyche101

[Mr Walker]

36 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

I agree, it's not an answer in any way shape or form. It's just deviating from the subject. 

Good luck, last discussion I had, he tried to tell me eBay sales pitches override dictionary definitions. I'm done after that incredible silliness. 

Energy impressions? 

I don't see how that's logical or viable. Especially as a hologram style recording. That's a lot of power required to consider that process. More than any human generates in a lifetime. 

Language evolves and the convention on UM is that common usage determines validity 

A fishpond can be bought, dry and complete, form a hardware store and is advertised as such  ergo fishponds do not HAVE to be filled with water to be ponds  

A modern hologram probably   requires more candle power than was found in many cities a few centuries ago but far less than the amount needed in the first ones developed in the middle of last century     Times and technologies change and evolve.  and again,  you misunderstand. In this scenario  the power doesn't come from the human body, but from an external source which may be recording and storing your entire life in  virtual reality  . 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Mr Walker

[openozy]

15 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Nope. I have looked I'm earnest too when my father passed on

This reminded me of when my stepdad passed.A couple of weeks went by and I was sitting with mum in the loungeroom when I noticed dad glide down the hall,mum,who was facing away from this view and a total disbeliever in the paranormal said"did you see dad just then".She then admitted seeing him glide passed on several occasions.The thing is there was no love loss there from me or mum as dad had been a very difficult person when here.So maybe love comes into it also.

[Mr Walker]

38 minutes ago, the13bats said:

Its a shame that all you have are beliefs and stories zero proof of any of it.

Its always the same symptom though guys like you always think you are a little more special than the rest of the heard.

Id advise just sitting back and enjoying the stories.

You will only gain proof and evidences, acceptable to you, via your own experiences 

No one is asking, let alone requiring of you, that you believe a thing. I am assuming that you  a re not much of a reader of any kind of fiction   

Edited October 22, 2020 by Mr Walker

[openozy]

9 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

 

I honestly think if you revisited those experiences in earnest now, you might be able to consider other reasons that didn't occur to you at the time.

I've learnt which experiences may(and I say may) be explained at times due to stress or other influences but I've had physical encounters of being thrown and just too many others that have no explanation.

[the13bats]

44 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

You wont get proof of a ghost living in our house, given that it burned to the ground 15 years ago  

you are speaking of your  belief/disbelief, not the truth/reality.

You are able to disbelieve because you weren't there. I know a ghost lived there, for the same reasons i know my wife was there ie, as well as myself,  other  people could see and hear her .

Plausible is what you are willing to believe.  What you a re willing to believe depends on your own experiences and also on your form of logical thinking.

Total disbelief requires refusing to accept the millions of encounters people claim to have had with ghosts as being with real independent entities  Some of these encounters are very simple and some very complex. Some encounters are  with ghosts which hang around for decades haunting a place or an object   and are encountered by dozens of people over that time period  Some ghosts do repsond to human presence Others do not 

Sorry, you still failed, the truth reality is you believe a ghost lived in your house you have zero to back that claim up.

A billion people can make a claim without proof its just a billion stories.

[the13bats]

19 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Id advise just sitting back and enjoying the stories.

You will only gain proof and evidences, acceptable to you, via your own experiences 

No one is asking, let alone requiring of you, that you believe a thing. I am assuming that you  a re not much of a reader of any kind of fiction   

Hah, what an epic fail you are, you sure dont know me,

And i suggest you realize all you have are stories, some ghost stories i enjoy some i cant too much BS involved.

[the13bats]

25 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Language evolves and the convention on UM is that common usage determines validity 

A fishpond can be bought, dry and complete, form a hardware store and is advertised as such  ergo fishponds do not HAVE to be filled with water to be ponds  

A modern hologram probably   requires more candle power than was found in many cities a few centuries ago but far less than the amount needed in the first ones developed in the middle of last century     Times and technologies change and evolve.  and again,  you misunderstand. In this scenario  the power doesn't come from the human body, but from an external source which may be recording and storing your entire life in  virtual reality  . 

Are you that cat who was too ego driven to admit you failed and got a thread closed over the semantics of "fishpond" ?

[the13bats]

38 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

i KNOW what is true and real 

A lot of kids believe santa is real, A lot of mental patients make that same claim you do that you know what is real but what you know is only your realty tunnel.

[the13bats]

34 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Not to begin with. My father passed away when I was around 40. I lived my life with my mother and sisters (broken family) who were strong proponents. Untill I was in my 20s, I didn't even consider it as anything but real. Quite a religious orientated upbringing too. 

I honestly think if you revisited those experiences in earnest now, you might be able to consider other reasons that didn't occur to you at the time. It's easier to be more rational in retrospect. I don't trust people, I don't trust stories. Historically that bites me on the bum more often than I care to mention. Science doesn't lie, and I can prove what I learn for myself. Harder work sure, but much more satisfying. Science doesn't ever let me down. I can't tell you how many times anecdotes have though.

A lot of greving souls believe they saw the dear departed, its part of healing, not reality.

 

[jmccr8]

6 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

The after life was being discussed. not everyone agrees on what, if any, form an afterlife will take  

if it is real and happens then it has a natural and scientifically discoverable explanation. 

ghosts are real Thus they are not simply superstition, although human beliefs and superstitions may influence how we perceive and understand a ghost.

  If i see a ghost my first thought is of holographic projection or virtual reality, not magic or spiritual religious  forms.

People in the past didn't have tha t sort of option in their thinking, and so HAD to construct their beliefs/understandings  about ghosts, on their wider  beliefs/understandings, and the available  science of their times 

Hi Walker

We have a thread about your construct where this would be on topic as cloning is not what the classical afterlife concept is based on.

Afterlife, digital copies or clones 

jmccr8

 

[psyche101]

15 hours ago, openozy said:

This reminded me of when my stepdad passed.A couple of weeks went by and I was sitting with mum in the loungeroom when I noticed dad glide down the hall,mum,who was facing away from this view and a total disbeliever in the paranormal said"did you see dad just then".She then admitted seeing him glide passed on several occasions.The thing is there was no love loss there from me or mum as dad had been a very difficult person when here.So maybe love comes into it also.

My father would claim a little girl was around me a lot. Never saw anything. He was suffering dementia and Alzheimer's at the time. When he passed, my sister claimed to see his shadow on the porch. I saw nothing. And she has always been a bit zealous in her approach. 

You want to know something funny? Every person I have met, and I do mean every single one, who claims to have special powers, can see ghosts, highly sensitive to the paranormal rah rah, claim that I'm incredibly gifted and have a very strong connection to the other side and paranormal activity.

How ironic is that? 

[psyche101]

15 hours ago, openozy said:

I've learnt which experiences may(and I say may) be explained at times due to stress or other influences but I've had physical encounters of being thrown and just too many others that have no explanation.

It may seem limited with the options we feel we have, bit there simply has to be more. I have little faith in man made solutions. That's why I always default to science. It's a report of nature, which is always more reliable than the mind of humankind.

[Mr Walker]

18 hours ago, the13bats said:

Sorry, you still failed, the truth reality is you believe a ghost lived in your house you have zero to back that claim up.

A billion people can make a claim without proof its just a billion stories.

No the truth is A ghost came to live with us  

That is not believe  Its a factual statement based on evidences We also had 2 peacocks and 4 guinea fowl  4 ducks and a dozen bantams  come tot  live with us and i cant prove that to you, either.   YOU are the one with a belief because you dont have any knowledge Thats why you ask for evidences implying that evidences would give you knowldge However it doesn't work like tha t  You cant deny i have knowledge of a ghost other than via belief   You can believe what you like  but only because you don't have my knowledge ad expernce  eg I cant prove we had all those animals (and many others ) either but i KNOW we did.

To YOU it is "just a story. " To me it is a lived experience.

Everything in your life is" just a story"  to me, also, no matter how much you swear it is true    

[Mr Walker]

18 hours ago, the13bats said:

Hah, what an epic fail you are, you sure dont know me,

And i suggest you realize all you have are stories, some ghost stories i enjoy some i cant too much BS involved.

I only know you from your responses and replies here 

You only know me from  my posts here. 

The stories i  tell are true and real.

its quite ok for you to disbelieve any or all of them, but i know this means you are missing out on some interesting truths because you i refuse to consider them . I only have responsibility to tell those truths (because they are truths)  Not to try and make anyone believe them 

Any ghost story might b e total BS 

it might be an honest misunderstanding or misperception by the person

It can/might be a true story of an encounter with a real  ghost 

Only people with a fanatical disbelief in the possibility of ghosts, totally  discount the last possibility 

[Mr Walker]

13 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

We have a thread about your construct where this would be on topic as cloning is not what the classical afterlife concept is based on.

Afterlife, digital copies or clones 

jmccr8

 

There is no such thing as "the classical construct of an after life" Only different social constructs across time and place 

eg are you referring to   jewish, islamic, christian, buddhist, animis,   or other  forms when you use the term 'classical" ? 

i see this as an attempt to limit the debate to a certain construct just/largely  to eliminate my contribution   

Particularly, psyche has a theory that ghosts and the after life can be discounted using one model  of physics (and while i have my doubts i wont argue against tha t model )  BUT that model does not disallow other forms of ghost or after life, so naturally, psyche would like to limit the discussion to the one construct he thinks he has evidences against 

Understandable but not acceptable 

in many ways the christian concept of resurrection and life in a new body of the old mind is EXACTLY a description of how cloning would work 

Theologically god would  clone your body and improve it genetically to a better model (or the original model he created before sin0    God then  stores your mind /memory while you  sleep/no longer exist  after your physical  death On the resurrection  days god roles out he new bodies and downloads your original minds into them  

Through the process of your salvation you are perfected and no longer choose to sin

In revelations you are then placed on the new earth (a paradise like eden)  where you can live an immortal life travelling to and working /studying with all the other species god created  across the galaxy who never fell from grace 

Now i dont have that religious   belief but my point is, that my model  fits the classical concept perfectly 

The idea of going to heaven or hell after your  death is not biblical and is a catholic construct /addition, designed to scare people even more.Heck the catholics even sold "time off"  from hell through indulgences. 

Biblically,   the dead sleep in their graves until judgement day and are then resurrected Some are then given eternal life Others are destroyed both body and soul No one is punished with eternal fire etc. 

THAT'S the "true classical christian" theological model.   

 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

19 hours ago, the13bats said:

Are you that cat who was too ego driven to admit you failed and got a thread closed over the semantics of "fishpond" ?

Is that thread closed? i dont think so.

A quick check shows that no threads have been closed down in the areas  i haunt,  for quite a while 

If indeed it is, then it wasn't from   that argument  

ego has nothing to do with it.

A fishpond is a thing which can exist, empty  of water,  

It is simple and basic and irrefutable,  and  some people  just like to argue with ANYthing i say  

Edited October 23, 2020 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

19 hours ago, the13bats said:

A lot of kids believe santa is real, A lot of mental patients make that same claim you do that you know what is real but what you know is only your realty tunnel.

kids and mental patients believe many  things. the y don't know them  

functioning adults KNOW things  from  logic evidences and experience 

Im reading a lot of this "reality tunnel" lately 

IMO and experience it is a fake construct for any functioning human.

Its a term used to discredit anyone with  an understanding different to ones own.

we all perceive and adapt to our exterior and inner realities in ways which are optimised and most functional for us.

  These are influenced by the culture of both the wider society and our closer  peers and the way our mind operates 

if that's a reality tunnel then it is an artefact of human cognition and a positive evolved response, to help us live our lives

It is people who might live in an"unreality  tunnel"  who would be of concern.  

absolute reality can be known and tested by tried and true skills and technique.s These used to be taught as a part of a formal education but it seem this happens less so today 

eg identifying biases,  considering your cognitive constructs and the ways you developed them, and why you needed to,

Using different forms of intelligence to interrogate your constructs and world view.

Testing your values and ethics etc by extrapolation  of what will happen if the y are acted upon.  Finding the conscious and sub conscious triggers which motivate your behaviours and taking conscious control of them. There are dozens of such skills i was taught over the time of my schooling and by my parents 

Heck even the most basic skills seem to be lacking in many today 

ie careful observation, unbiased and logical evaluation and analysis  use of evidences  etc Knowing the difference between objective and subjective,  concrete and abstract etc skills like the scientific method, linear reasoning using logic, mind mapping and intuitive skills   I know kids are taught some of these skills in "our" schools  but  many adults dont seem to use them, 

Edited October 23, 2020 by Mr Walker

[jmccr8]

58 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

THAT'S the "true classical christian" theological model. 

Hi Walker

And none of your response is on topic so I answered in the thread where it is on topic.

jmccr8

[Mr Walker]

18 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Walker

And none of your response is on topic so I answered in the thread where it is on topic.

jmccr8

As you will.

I disagree.

I dont accept   the way you and psyche  choose to define "the afterlife",  nor your right to do so in order  to create an exclusive debate,  rather than an inclusive or open one  

Besides.

This is the only line  in the OP 

"The idea of this thread is the present support or answers to the question of what ghosts are. More importantly what they might actually be caused by. "

My responses go precisely to that question.

ie ghosts may NOT be what they are classically defined as, or thought of as.  

Trying to limit responses might mean that the question cannot be  answered .

Edited October 23, 2020 by Mr Walker

[the13bats]

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

kids and mental patients believe many  things. the y don't know them  

functioning adults KNOW things  from  logic evidences and experience 

Im reading a lot of this "reality tunnel" lately 

IMO and experience it is a fake construct for any functioning human.

Its a term used to discredit anyone with  an understanding different to ones own.

we all perceive and adapt to our exterior and inner realities in ways which are optimised and most functional for us.

  These are influenced by the culture of both the wider society and our closer  peers and the way our mind operates 

if that's a reality tunnel then it is an artefact of human cognition and a positive evolved response, to help us live our lives

It is people who might live in an"unreality  tunnel"  who would be of concern.  

absolute reality can be known and tested by tried and true skills and technique.s These used to be taught as a part of a formal education but it seem this happens less so today 

eg identifying biases,  considering your cognitive constructs and the ways you developed them, and why you needed to,

Using different forms of intelligence to interrogate your constructs and world view.

Testing your values and ethics etc by extrapolation  of what will happen if the y are acted upon.  Finding the conscious and sub conscious triggers which motivate your behaviours and taking conscious control of them. There are dozens of such skills i was taught over the time of my schooling and by my parents 

Heck even the most basic skills seem to be lacking in many today 

ie careful observation, unbiased and logical evaluation and analysis  use of evidences  etc Knowing the difference between objective and subjective,  concrete and abstract etc skills like the scientific method, linear reasoning using logic, mind mapping and intuitive skills   I know kids are taught some of these skills in "our" schools  but  many adults dont seem to use them, 

 the first time i heard "reality tunnel" it was from xeno on this forum since its his thread ill let him if he so desires to discuss that with you.

I have many theories for reasons people claim to see ghosts or other paranormal events and after i rule out things like hoaxes, and BS made up stories i do known from science and research that many mental conditions cause pepole to think they see hear and believe things that only exist in their minds and not know its delusion and they insist its real.

Ive seen your posting style you tend to have one viewpoint, yours and so in respect to xeno, his thread and what he wants of it and other members im going ignore you from here on out, i figure you have to get that last word on me, thats fine.

 

[Mr Walker]

1 minute ago, the13bats said:

 the first time i heard "reality tunnel" it was from xeno on this forum since its his thread ill let him if he so desires to discuss that with you.

I have many theories for reasons people claim to see ghosts or other paranormal events and after i rule out things like hoaxes, and BS made up stories i do known from science and research that many mental conditions cause pepole to think they see hear and believe things that only exist in their minds and not know its delusion and they insist its real.

Ive seen your posting style you tend to have one viewpoint, yours and so in respect to xeno, his thread and what he wants of it and other members im going ignore you from here on out, i figure you have to get that last word on me, thats fine.

 

Fair enough

This is a debating forum 

I chose a pov and present and argue it as best i can. I consider other pov and look for their  flaws and weaknesses. I look at the criticisms of my own pov to see if they have merit.  (and occasionally the y do) 

This forum will fold if everyone just uses it to agree and for social niceties.

  for example I agree with you that many experiences with ghosts are totally internal ie the y are constructs of the mind. Others are misinterpretations of observed phenomena

Where we disagree, I think, is that i know real independent things we call ghosts exist.

  You dont have any evidences for this, and so are exercising your logical right to disbelief 

the only problem is when your disbelief conflicts with things i know to be true.

   it is hard, without being rude, to tell people they are wrong in their disbeliefs.

But often the y are  and its important that the y be told this.

  Life/reality  is not JUST ( or restricted to) what an individual has experienced.

It  (reality) is the totality of all human experience 

Unless we are prepared to accept the experiences of others as being genuine,  we can never fully understand life, reality, and humanity