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Cookie Monster

Sufi Mysticism

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Cookie Monster

I`m a Christian so I dont know a lot about Islamic mysticism. I hope there are some Muslims here who are into Sufism so they can help me work through the following.

Lets start with a made up example of someone making a random comment: `You need to loose weight`

Now there are various ways I could interpret that comment. I could see them as caring about me, I could see them as just making a matter of fact comment, I could see them as being mean to me. In Sufism am I right in thinking that how we interpret things shapes reality?

I choose how I interpret something, and then reality unfolds as if my interpretation is correct?

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XenoFish

I don't know what loose weight is, but I know what lose weight means. Look, just pick a reality tunnel and stick with it. We do not literally shape reality. It shape how we choose to perceive things. If you're a fat and need to lose some weight, your self-image will dictate how you feel about that comment. 

https://medium.com/reality-tunnels/introduction-to-reality-tunnels-a-tool-for-understanding-the-postmodern-world-72cdd98af9d0

Edited by XenoFish
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Abramelin
On 10/6/2020 at 8:51 PM, Cookie Monster said:

I`m a Christian so I dont know a lot about Islamic mysticism. I hope there are some Muslims here who are into Sufism so they can help me work through the following.

Lets start with a made up example of someone making a random comment: `You need to loose weight`

Now there are various ways I could interpret that comment. I could see them as caring about me, I could see them as just making a matter of fact comment, I could see them as being mean to me. In Sufism am I right in thinking that how we interpret things shapes reality?

I choose how I interpret something, and then reality unfolds as if my interpretation is correct?

It's not a straight answer, but I assume you would be interested in sufism.

Here is a link to a post on my Wordpress blog; and yes, I am 'Blackbeard':

https://alamogordo.wordpress.com/sufism-gurdjieff-the-4th-way/8/

Edited by Abramelin
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Abramelin

When a sufi advises you to loose weight, it most probably has to do with you learning about discipline. And as soon as you managed to actually loose weight, a next step in the learning proces will be another discipline.

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Cookie Monster
4 hours ago, Abramelin said:

It's not a straight answer, but I assume you would be interested in sufism.

Here is a link to a post on my Wordpress blog; and yes, I am 'Blackbeard':

https://alamogordo.wordpress.com/sufism-gurdjieff-the-4th-way/8/

We come to an event, we form our perceptions about it, and we carry on with those perceptions stored in us as if they were true. I have read some Sufi stories about Moses with a teacher who sank a boat showing that an event seen as evil can actually be good by looking at it differently.

God has created us to go on a spiritual journey yet our egos, emotions, perceptions, all knock of us off course and cloud our vision of God. We get lost in the world from wrong thinking. We can reframe it all as God at work teaching us things and if we learn the lesson we move on.

Edited by Cookie Monster

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Guyver
On 10/6/2020 at 11:51 AM, Cookie Monster said:

I`m a Christian so I dont know a lot about Islamic mysticism. I hope there are some Muslims here who are into Sufism so they can help me work through the following.

Lets start with a made up example of someone making a random comment: `You need to loose weight`

Now there are various ways I could interpret that comment. I could see them as caring about me, I could see them as just making a matter of fact comment, I could see them as being mean to me. In Sufism am I right in thinking that how we interpret things shapes reality?

I choose how I interpret something, and then reality unfolds as if my interpretation is correct?

How we interpret things does shape our reality, there’s no question about that part.  I don’t know anything of Sufism, but I do know something about being Christian.  And, as a Christian, IDK why you would be interested in anything apart from that.

Wouldnt it be fair to say that as a Christian you believe Jesus to be the way, truth and life, and no one could come to the Father except through him.  And, hasn’t his righteous blood given you eternal life and everything that pertains to godliness?

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Cookie Monster
12 minutes ago, Guyver said:

How we interpret things does shape our reality, there’s no question about that part.  I don’t know anything of Sufism, but I do know something about being Christian.  And, as a Christian, IDK why you would be interested in anything apart from that.

Wouldnt it be fair to say that as a Christian you believe Jesus to be the way, truth and life, and no one could come to the Father except through him.  And, hasn’t his righteous blood given you eternal life and everything that pertains to godliness?

Regardless of whether we use Jewish, Christian, or Islamic mysticism, they say the same thing.

God created the universe with us in it. We are here to learn to regulate our minds. Yet we loose track of the fact that God is sending us the experiences we have and instead get caught up in them.

So if you get robbed (as an example) you obsess about the criminal that did it. You get angry and mad at them. You forget that God sent that experience to you and get caught up by it instead. If we change our perceptions about the incident we can say ah God sent this for our growth.

And we can identify the lesson in mind regulation it wants us to learn, and learn it.

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XenoFish
43 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

You forget that God sent that experience to you

Then God can **** off.

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Guyver
3 hours ago, Cookie Monster said:

Regardless of whether we use Jewish, Christian, or Islamic mysticism, they say the same thing.

God created the universe with us in it. We are here to learn to regulate our minds. Yet we loose track of the fact that God is sending us the experiences we have and instead get caught up in them.

So if you get robbed (as an example) you obsess about the criminal that did it. You get angry and mad at them. You forget that God sent that experience to you and get caught up by it instead. If we change our perceptions about the incident we can say ah God sent this for our growth.

And we can identify the lesson in mind regulation it wants us to learn, and learn it.

You think that God would send a criminal to rob me so that I could learn to regulate my mind?  Buddhists can do that without being robbed, in fact many people can regulate their minds simply because they choose to.  
 

In any event, as I consider the nature of this existence - I have come to consider very seriously that it is a prison of sorts.  I feel pretty sure about that.....the problem I have with the notion is that if Good God put us here to live in this place of struggle, suffering, pain and death.....and if this be a type of punishment as I consider it to be, it seems we should be made aware of why we are being punished.  That part I have no answers for.  When we sentence a person to prison, we inform them specifically about their crimes and the associated punishment.  

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XenoFish
36 minutes ago, Guyver said:

You think that God would send a criminal to rob me so that I could learn to regulate my mind?

This is the same type of victim blaming that the "Law of Attraction" crowd uses. You got robbed because you subconscious wanted it and the "universe" made it happen. Same goes for the poor and starving. They brought it on themselves.:rolleyes:

Sure in some cases people do bring things onto themselves, but having bad thoughts when you were 12 doesn't mean you're supposed to get robbed or murdered at 30.

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Guyver

Exactly.  One of the wise Bible writers....Solomon, informed that what happens to one person happens to another, and it’s random.  Even Jesus admitted randomness when he spoke of the tower that crashed down and killed people.  He asked if the people killed there were any worse sinners than the rest of the people living in the town.

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XenoFish
On 10/8/2020 at 3:06 PM, Cookie Monster said:

God has created us to go on a spiritual journey yet our egos, emotions, perceptions, all knock of us off course and cloud our vision of God. We get lost in the world from wrong thinking. We can reframe it all as God at work teaching us things and if we learn the lesson we move on.

That's your reality tunnel. And if it works for you, do it. I personally don't see the point of inflating my ego on the holy dopamine ghost. Thinking that I am so special that god allows me to suffer just to teach me something. Not a very loving god in my eyes. I'd rather just accept the problems I caused, the problems other people cause, and handle all of it the best I can. 

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Guyver
6 hours ago, XenoFish said:

That's your reality tunnel. And if it works for you, do it. I personally don't see the point of inflating my ego on the holy dopamine ghost. Thinking that I am so special that god allows me to suffer just to teach me something. Not a very loving god in my eyes. I'd rather just accept the problems I caused, the problems other people cause, and handle all of it the best I can. 

I totally get why you feel that way, and in a sense I agree with it.  If you don’t need “God” - you live how you want.  Love God or not, we’re all gonna die anyway.  The idea of God helps some people, religion helps some people, whatever it is that helps someone is good.  I’ve heard you say it before and I actually believe it and live it.  I could do a way better job of myself with this much freedom though, I gotta say.  I have a really long leash and it’s about time I reeled mine in a tad. FWIW.

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Cookie Monster
9 hours ago, XenoFish said:

That's your reality tunnel. And if it works for you, do it. I personally don't see the point of inflating my ego on the holy dopamine ghost. Thinking that I am so special that god allows me to suffer just to teach me something. Not a very loving god in my eyes. I'd rather just accept the problems I caused, the problems other people cause, and handle all of it the best I can. 

I have set out my views elsewhere on these forums with you.

You do not decide what is good or evil, other people do not decide what is good or evil, society does not decide what is good or evil, God does! This is Gods universe not ours. If you deny yourself a pleasure because you believe it to be evil when it isn`t then God punishes you for it.

Nasty people exist in the world. They represent the opportunity for you to enjoy darker pleasure by being a git back. It is eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. If you have a parent that is abusive towards you then get stuck in and abuse the living daylights out of them back. Enjoy it, it is moral, it is good. If a neighbour is a swine towards you then you dont love him back, you get you revenge using a way where they know it was you. Enjoy it, it is moral, it is good.

The journey you are on in life is gaining wisdom of good and evil. You are supposed to learn both, know when to use both, when not too, how it is appropriate to use them, and what is inappropriate. God has you on a training plan and the refusal to go along with it is what attracts suffering into your life. As you continue to refuse the suffering gets worse.

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XenoFish
44 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

I have set out my views elsewhere on these forums with you.

You do not decide what is good or evil, other people do not decide what is good or evil, society does not decide what is good or evil, God does! This is Gods universe not ours. If you deny yourself a pleasure because you believe it to be evil when it isn`t then God punishes you for it.

Nasty people exist in the world. They represent the opportunity for you to enjoy darker pleasure by being a git back. It is eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth. If you have a parent that is abusive towards you then get stuck in and abuse the living daylights out of them back. Enjoy it, it is moral, it is good. If a neighbour is a swine towards you then you dont love him back, you get you revenge using a way where they know it was you. Enjoy it, it is moral, it is good.

The journey you are on in life is gaining wisdom of good and evil. You are supposed to learn both, know when to use both, when not too, how it is appropriate to use them, and what is inappropriate. God has you on a training plan and the refusal to go along with it is what attracts suffering into your life. As you continue to refuse the suffering gets worse.

Again that is your B.S. (Belief System), not mine. It is the reality tunnel through which you view all things. That doesn't make it the "truth". It's a perspective. Even going by your own views I'd say that you're more evil than good. Pleasure seeking, judgmental, and vindictive. A hedonist through and through. 

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XenoFish
3 hours ago, Guyver said:

I totally get why you feel that way, and in a sense I agree with it.  If you don’t need “God” - you live how you want.  Love God or not, we’re all gonna die anyway.  The idea of God helps some people, religion helps some people, whatever it is that helps someone is good.  I’ve heard you say it before and I actually believe it and live it.  I could do a way better job of myself with this much freedom though, I gotta say.  I have a really long leash and it’s about time I reeled mine in a tad. FWIW.

If it helps and harms none, then I've got no issues. Doesn't mean a person without god is without morals and self discipline. 

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Cookie Monster
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Again that is your B.S. (Belief System), not mine. It is the reality tunnel through which you view all things. That doesn't make it the "truth". It's a perspective. Even going by your own views I'd say that you're more evil than good. Pleasure seeking, judgmental, and vindictive. A hedonist through and through. 

You are out of balance with the world you live in.

If you take someone who always does good, then you will also notice their lives are a mess because of it. Its like they are ignorant of the fact that people and the world aren`t perfect. They are so locked in and so living in denial they cannot adopt a more pragmatic approach to life. To do so would mean they have to admit that they have a dark side too, and one which they aren`t using when they should be doing.

Likewise there are people who always do evil and their lives are a mess too. They destroy their relationships with other people, they loose their jobs, they end up in prison or alone. For people like that they haven`t learned when its appropriate to use their dark sides, and they deny their light sides.

Those are two extremes, all the way good or all the way evil. Often portrayed as empaths vs psychopaths. Both have lives which are a disaster. To function and get on in life you have achieve the correct balance between good and evil. There are times when we should be nice, kind, compassionate, forgiving, loving, altruistic, all the qualities of an empath. But there are times we have to be vindictive, vengeful, abusive, bullying, aggressive, selfish, self-centred.

Without the full package you arent able to function with other people and all the various environments you will find yourself in. I guess trying to `open the eyes` of a empath is just as hard as trying to `open the eyes` of a psychopath. And it is kind of ironic how the empaths and psychopaths always find themselves together. They are both each others punishment, punishment sent from God.

God is not good or evil, it is both. It has created the world and put that good and evil into it. Good and evil come from God. God is one, there is no evil counterpart that has intruded into creation to ruin it. If you actually read the Garden of Eden story it tells you. You are here to learn good and evil, not just good, not just evil. You are here to get `your eyes opened` so that you become like God. In essence, achieving balance between good and evil.

If you deny yourself darker pleasures when you should be enjoying them then you just attract further negative experiences to make you suffer. That is God breaking you down until you embrace darker pleasures. And God will ramp up the pressure higher and higher the more you fight it. Likewise for psychopaths, God tortures them with light to break them down.

You can continue to fight it (and I`m sure that you will) and get plenty of harsh experiences come you way for it. Or you can stop resisting and go along with what God intends for you. For someone who is totally good, you must realise you dont have the skills or ability to deal with people that violate your rights?

Adopt a game theory approach to dealing with them. The first violation be mean back. The second violation also be mean back. The third violation go on the offensive. Be a tw*t to them. Abuse them. Mess them up. And dont ever cease until they adjust their attitude towards you. Make sure you enjoy it along the way, its your right.

Things will change for you once you stop resisting and indulge.

You also have a problem with hedonism, you have been taught it is inherently bad. It isn`t. God didnt create the world and fill it with pleasure only for you to deny yourself it. God wants you to have a fun pleasurable time while here. So enjoy it.

Edited by Cookie Monster

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XenoFish
2 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

You are out of balance with the world you live in.

If you take someone who always does good, then you will also notice their lives are a mess because of it. Its like they are ignorant of the fact that people and the world aren`t perfect. They are so locked in and so living in denial they cannot adopt a more pragmatic approach to life. To do so would mean they have to admit that they have a dark side too, and one which they aren`t using when they should be doing.

Likewise there are people who always do evil and their lives are a mess too. They destroy their relationships with other people, they loose their jobs, they end up in prison or alone. For people like that they haven`t learned when its appropriate to use their dark sides, and they deny their light sides.

Those are two extremes, all the way good or all the way evil. Often portrayed as empaths vs psychopaths. Both have lives which are a disaster. To function and get on in life you have achieve the correct balance between good and evil. There are times when we should be nice, kind, compassionate, forgiving, loving, altruistic, all the qualities of an empath. But there are times we have to be vindictive, vengeful, abusive, bullying, aggressive, selfish, self-centred.

Without the full package you arent able to function with other people and all the various environments you will find yourself in. I guess trying to `open the eyes` of a empath is just as hard as trying to `open the eyes` of a psychopath. And it is kind of ironic how the empaths and psychopaths always find themselves together. They are both each others punishment, punishment sent from God.

God is not good or evil, it is both. It has created the world and put that good and evil into it. Good and evil come from God. God is one, there is no evil counterpart that has intruded into creation to ruin it. If you actually read the Garden of Eden story it tells you. You are here to learn good and evil, not just good, not just evil. You are here to get `your eyes opened` so that you become like God. In essence, achieving balance between good and evil.

If you deny yourself darker pleasures when you should be enjoying them then you just attract further negative experiences to make you suffer. That is God breaking you down until you embrace darker pleasures. And God will ramp up the pressure higher and higher the more you fight it. Likewise for psychopaths, God tortures them with light to break them down.

You can continue to fight it (and I`m sure that you will) and get plenty of harsh experiences come you way for it. Or you can stop resisting and go along with what God intends for you. For someone who is totally good, you must realise you dont have the skills or ability to deal with people that violate your rights?

Adopt a game theory approach to dealing with them. The first violation be mean back. The second violation also be mean back. The third violation go on the offensive. Be a tw*t to them. Abuse them. Mess them up. And dont ever cease until they adjust their attitude towards you. Make sure you enjoy it along the way, its your right.

Things will change for you once you stop resisting and indulge.

 

This is nothing more than you preaching your own view of things. You apparently have this black and white idea of the world. Right/Wrong, Good/Evil, Pleasure/Suffering. 

Life is chaos. All of us have good times and bad times, something very bad times. It's all cause and effect. You can assign divine intention to this all you wish, I don't. 

God bring good and evil, torments the good (to teach them lessons) and the evil (to teach them compassion). Yet this isn't a god worth worshipping. And it reflects more your mindset than anything else. I get the feeling that your hate for the homeless is driven by a fear of becoming homeless. Same thing in regards the various "power" threads you created. Even the way you talk about others as if they less than you, which reeks of pure ego. 

And to think that the way people think of you is a lesson from god, which it might just be that people don't like you. You've even stated that you use people. So you're the jerk. People treat you the way they do because of the way you treat others.

I think you need to find a balance. I had to find my own. I'm not depressed, not as angry as I used to be. I don't indulge every whim. I strive to take things as they are, rather than what I wish them to be. I've built (still building) a new reality tunnel. One where I enjoy strive to enjoy the simple things in life. 

It looks more and more like you're using religion to validate your beliefs as well. 

Why not give these suggestions a try for the next 30 days.

1) Meditate by calming the mind.

2) Treat others as you wish to be treated.

3) Approach conflict calmly, and seek a peaceful resolution. (talk to people)

4) Quit being judgmental.

What can you lose by trying the above 4 things? What will the next 30 days bring by doing those 4 things? You won't know until you try. I just get this feeling that you're an extremely unhappy person with a ton of problems that you've created. 

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Cookie Monster
13 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

This is nothing more than you preaching your own view of things. You apparently have this black and white idea of the world. Right/Wrong, Good/Evil, Pleasure/Suffering. 

Life is chaos. All of us have good times and bad times, something very bad times. It's all cause and effect. You can assign divine intention to this all you wish, I don't. 

God bring good and evil, torments the good (to teach them lessons) and the evil (to teach them compassion). Yet this isn't a god worth worshipping. And it reflects more your mindset than anything else. I get the feeling that your hate for the homeless is driven by a fear of becoming homeless. Same thing in regards the various "power" threads you created. Even the way you talk about others as if they less than you, which reeks of pure ego. 

And to think that the way people think of you is a lesson from god, which it might just be that people don't like you. You've even stated that you use people. So you're the jerk. People treat you the way they do because of the way you treat others.

I think you need to find a balance. I had to find my own. I'm not depressed, not as angry as I used to be. I don't indulge every whim. I strive to take things as they are, rather than what I wish them to be. I've built (still building) a new reality tunnel. One where I enjoy strive to enjoy the simple things in life. 

It looks more and more like you're using religion to validate your beliefs as well. 

Why not give these suggestions a try for the next 30 days.

1) Meditate by calming the mind.

2) Treat others as you wish to be treated.

3) Approach conflict calmly, and seek a peaceful resolution. (talk to people)

4) Quit being judgmental.

What can you lose by trying the above 4 things? What will the next 30 days bring by doing those 4 things? You won't know until you try. I just get this feeling that you're an extremely unhappy person with a ton of problems that you've created. 

I am just further along in my realisations about the nature of existence than you are.

What is the punishment for hating the poor, the homeless, the weak, the unsuccessful, and being selfish? It is finding yourself a wealthy, powerful, successful guy. God puts you in that situation so it can torture you. So it can break you down with experiences for hating the poor, the homeless, the weak, the unsuccessful, and those in need of charity.

If you are wholly good you get punished for it, if you are wholly evil you get punished for it, you get punished for absolutely anything. But you choose your punishments. You might not realise it if you are led by your ego, but it is your ego that decides who and what you hate.

You attempts to frame my position into your old worldview will not work. If the way you think doesnt work then isn`t it about time that you opened yourself up to the possibility that you are in the wrong? That maybe you dont know what you are talking about?

Edited by Cookie Monster

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XenoFish
1 minute ago, Cookie Monster said:

I am just further along in my realizations about the nature of existence than you are.

That is highly debatable. But I'll let others decided on that.

Quote

You attempts to frame my position into your old worldview will not work. If the way you think doesnt work then isn`t it about time that you opened yourself up to the possibility that you are in the wrong? That maybe you dont know what you are talking about?

I can only go on the information that you give and the attitude you present. I've already adjusted my reality tunnel, life ain't bad for me. I really think you are the one without an actual clue. But I can only hope that you try to remove as many models from your reality as possible. I suggest you start removing things. Get down to the basic mental software that drives you. Though this might lead to an existential crisis....Which is always fun. That might actually be good for you, an existential crisis + dark night of the soul. Yeah, where everything wretched thing about you, your false beliefs and assumptions, the real ugly of your shadow self gets brought right to the forefront. Good times, good times. Crippling depression was fun, but enlightening. You really need such a thing. that whole "WTF am I don't with my life" moment.

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Cookie Monster
5 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

That is highly debatable. But I'll let others decided on that.

I can only go on the information that you give and the attitude you present. I've already adjusted my reality tunnel, life ain't bad for me. I really think you are the one without an actual clue. But I can only hope that you try to remove as many models from your reality as possible. I suggest you start removing things. Get down to the basic mental software that drives you. Though this might lead to an existential crisis....Which is always fun. That might actually be good for you, an existential crisis + dark night of the soul. Yeah, where everything wretched thing about you, your false beliefs and assumptions, the real ugly of your shadow self gets brought right to the forefront. Good times, good times. Crippling depression was fun, but enlightening. You really need such a thing. that whole "WTF am I don't with my life" moment.

My shadow is fully incorporated thanks.

I am able to accept that I have both light and dark instincts in my mind. I am not going to deny to myself a part of who I am just because my parents/society have brainwashed me into believing it is bad. That also doesnt mean I act on all my dark thoughts I am responsible with them.

I dont like seeing innocent people suffer. I have love, empathy, kindness, and compassion for them. But if I cross paths with a moron who needs teaching a lesson or two then I abuse them. I bully them relentlessly and mess them up until they either sod off or adjust their attitude back. I enjoy doing it too, and why shouldn`t I?

Both my light and dark sides possess a form of beauty.  I am not going to perceive one as negative and ugly. I am not going to repress it down into my unconscious because I have been brainwashed into attaching my self-value to always being good. Both my light and dark sides are wonderful things, presents from God to be used during my life.

You`re the sought of person who would go give a lion a hug after it has eaten your friend. You wouldnt shoot it for being a man eater. Then you would get eaten too and complain that life is so unfair and that God isn`t real because of it. 

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XenoFish

Okay. If you say so.

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Guyver
9 hours ago, XenoFish said:

If it helps and harms none, then I've got no issues. Doesn't mean a person without god is without morals and self discipline. 

Of course you are right.  But, what I’m getting at is for some people who don’t have as much skill at setting boundaries for themselves or practicing discipline, the cultural and behavioral practices of the religion give them a framework to practice abstaining from things that could be harmful.  For example, take Baptists or Mormons as an example.  Baptist’s are known for being non-smokers or drinkers like Mormons, but they also avoid “secular” music like rock because it is the devils music.  They may not have sex outside of marriage, never use drugs, and many Mormons go as far as not drinking coffee, soft drinks, etc.

Rather than argue the health aspects of these things....I’m saying that religion helps some people modify their own behavior when they wouldn’t necessarily be able to do it themselves.

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XenoFish
31 minutes ago, Guyver said:

.I’m saying that religion helps some people modify their own behavior when they wouldn’t necessarily be able to do it themselves.

However, like everything there needs to be a balance. Some get out of wack on this, where they become overbearing control freaks or condescending holier than thou types. I don't disagree that the structured discipline can't help people. You're right it does help some and others not so much. A few I know are what I call good Christians. It's not an obsession to them. It's a way of living. I personally think whatever a person does on a religious or spiritual level is between them and their god. It should affect others. 

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Guyver
3 hours ago, XenoFish said:

However, like everything there needs to be a balance. Some get out of wack on this, where they become overbearing control freaks or condescending holier than thou types. I don't disagree that the structured discipline can't help people. You're right it does help some and others not so much. A few I know are what I call good Christians. It's not an obsession to them. It's a way of living. I personally think whatever a person does on a religious or spiritual level is between them and their god. It should affect others. 

I get it.....but the OP of this thread began by saying that he/she was Christian.  Yet, Christian is one word which describes a seemingly infinite variance of beliefs.  So, while there are some intense hell-fire turn or burn types, you have the opposite type of thing with the average Catholic practitioner - not priest....and some of them believe everyone eventually gets to heaven, there is no literal hell fire, and they would not impose their beliefs on you.

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