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If God Would Exist, The Devil Will Not!

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DieChecker
1 hour ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Nope, really  didn’t know that. Until later, when it was coming from other mouths, I was also hearing various other things from various other mouths. So, at that point, it was not ever considered as a factual truth. It was just something various families believed in. 
That is also including Jewish families Muslim families, and also come across a lot of other atheist families. Oh, as a child growing up in a secular family, with no going to church or reading from any kind of religious book, I grew up to what  I can see and not what I am told because of a belief system.

Do you understand what I am saying here? What you consider as a fact or as a common point of view , I don’t. That’s why I, I don’t see it as how you see it based on my own life experiences and viewpoints.

For a long time in the first part of my life, there was no existence or thought or belief of God and Christianity. And considering I saw no examples of it at that time, I can see why it’s not a true fact to me now. Because, there’s no examples of proof of it now.

Obviously I don't know how old you are, but people who grew up in the 60s, 70s, even 80s, all had overwhelming input from the TV, and it was culturally appropriate to assume everyone was Christian and everything about Christianity was common knowledge.

I understand many people grew up after that and didn't get that indoctrination (?). 

I too grew up in a nonreligious household, and we only had the 3 channels that came over the antenna. And the radio (before talk radio). And starting at 11, I think, I played D&D, and still do, so I was versed in polytheism, in a way, and pantheism, and also monotheism. I remember understanding that the Christian's God was all powerful and created everything, supposedly. 

Seems hard to me to believe that someone actually escaped christian indoctrination till they were fully adult. Completely escaped, even that God supposely created everything.

I don't require you accept any of it as a fact. I was responding to the OP, and not evangelizing. He asked for input and opinions so it seemed to me.

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DieChecker
1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Like what specifically for example from the Bible? 

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Satan

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In all three Abrahamic religions, Satan is identified as the entity (a serpent in the Genesis account) that tempted Eve to eat the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden and was thus the catalyst for the fall of humankind.

And thus is the source of every single evil mankind ever worked on. 

There are numerous encounters with Satan in the Bible... Job fir one... and Jesus speaks of him... Always as an Adversery, not as a coworker. 

 

 

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy
3 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Yes. That would be true. 

Even if people don't like the idea of God allowing evil, it is biblical that God created the Devil, and thus is ultimately responsible. Just as if a person's dog got loose and killed several children... The owner is responsible.

The owner of a dog is not omnipotent, so they could not know for certain that the dog would kill the children and the dog would be put down afterwards. God on the other hand is supposedly omnipotent, so should know what the devil will do, yet he doesn't prevent it not does he punish the devil.

Maybe evil things happen because some people dont care about the negative consequences of their action. No god or devil required. 

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DieChecker
1 hour ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Let’s look at that last line. I personally don’t think that last line is a respectable thought to use as proof of something. If you’re going to reference how God is impossible to prove and then impossible to disprove then you also must believe in the Muslim God,the Wiccan goddess,the force, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, whatever gods that was worshiped in Star Trek Deep Space 9. So, what you believe in must be unlimiting, because they too cannot be disapproved.

Why? My belief is based on personal experience, not facts that can be proven. Let the Wiccan, the Muslim, the Hindu... Let them come to me and tell me their beliefs, and ill consider them versus what I've experienced. 

If pepperoni is my favorite pizza, how can I prove that? If I can't, then must I love all pizza equally?

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I was also wondering but what you said and what I bolded. Are you saying about facts printed it in the Bible? As a bookseller for close to 20 years, I have come across so many various different Bibles with so many various ideals in it. Which one has the facts and which one does not?

Well almost all Bible have the same message. The various "editions" generally only reword the text. They dont intend to rewrite its meaning.

There are some that contain added "books", the Apocrypha, can be found in Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, i believe. And some more radical Bibles have pseudepigrapha "books", which are generally not accepted by the majority. There's also the Book of Mormon. All of these have in common 90+% of the text.

Also nearly all also state the things I said before. God created everything. God is all powerful. And the Devil is the bsd guy.

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Well I don’t know if this is the same beliefs system that you heard it from, but the person who told me this is a Presbyterian.

Are you seeing what’s coming from the Bible is fact or opinion? So what is it also generally excepted standard for Christianity, is it also just from Christians? What do you think other people would consider as?

Most Presbyterians believe in the Devil. It is a part of their doctrine. They simply don't talk about it, or ascribe him the power evangelicals and catholics do.

https://www.presbyterianmission.org/story/pt-0519-wpb/

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I wonder though, the reason why you can’t prove to others, is the fact that they don’t see it as facts. I don’t see it as fax, and you can see why I don’t because of how I grew up in what I have seen as proof. I also, can’t see how anyone not realize what they’re saying is not really a fact. And I say this, as a person in my own unique belief. I still firmly believe in what I believe, and I can see that it’s not necessarily seen as facts and objective. I have no problem with that.

Myself, i believe some if the Bible is fact, some I want (and so trust) to be fact, and some I think is just myth and storytelling. I believe every single person makes up their mind on how the Bible fits into each of those on their own.

Anything anyone believes is, to them, a fact. I love my wife... fact... because I believe it so. Jesus lived and taught in Galilee... fact... because I believe it so. If someone asked me if both were true, I'd tell them yes. 

Can science prove i love my wife? I'm not so sure. Chemistry varies minute to minute in the brain.

I'd again say I'm not attempting to form a logical, or scientific proof. Not trying to convince anyone. I'm refering to the doctrine of a religion the OP asked questions about.

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And I wonder, that you only tell people why you live the way you do to the people who actually make mention of that. The ones, who do admire your life. What about the ones that don’t care? Are you going to understandably let it be?

I am. I will.

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i’m sorry, what you think is a fact, I don’t. And I have enough proof in my whole life to see it as that. And that’s also including, seeing my own belief without actual objective facts. And that’s fine for me, because the way I see it it’s for me only. Which I always believe religion and beliefs systems are for. For teaching those who live in it and not for those around them.

You dont need to be sorry for me. Be sorry for yourself, if you believe, or don't, and it causes you distress. If not, then why be sorry at all? If I'm fine and you're fine?

The Gospels do call for Christians to share. So if asked, I will do so.

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DieChecker
6 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

The owner of a dog is not omnipotent, so they could not know for certain that the dog would kill the children and the dog would be put down afterwards. God on the other hand is supposedly omnipotent, so should know what the devil will do, yet he doesn't prevent it not does he punish the devil.

Maybe evil things happen because some people dont care about the negative consequences of their action. No god or devil required. 

To me it appears you're just considering God to be even more responsible then my example. To which I'd agree, to a point. With great evil, there is also always great good.

Humans do have free will, yet are tainted by the sins in Eden. We're just smarter animals, IMHO. Special, yet in many ways the same, or worse, then savage animals.

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Stubbly_Dooright
18 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Obviously I don't know how old you are, but people who grew up in the 60s, 70s, even 80s, all had overwhelming input from the TV, and it was culturally appropriate to assume everyone was Christian and everything about Christianity was common knowledge.

LOL

I actually did grew up around that time. And that input wasn’t really all that overwhelming, if I put another spin on it. And from my point of view  and those around me during this time, it wasn’t really that culturally appropriate to assume every person was one particular religion. In fact, growing up during this time and place, they were other religions too. So the thing is, they were all just put in an area where how people live like some families, going  camping in the summer, other families go skiing in the winter, and whatever life happens that are going on. It was some thing, that was left for each family, and not expected others to do. So, there was no indoctrination going on. I find it interesting, that you use the term, Indoctrination. Why do you use that term?

( by the way, I may not have been in the family that was religious but yeah I was in that family that camped in the summer and yes I was also in a family that skied in the winter)

24 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I understand many people grew up after that and didn't get that indoctrination (?). 

There you go again, using the term indoctrination. Where do you expect this indoctrination is going to come from? Because, I didn’t see it. And yes they were TV and movies that had various forms of religion in it but that was just as entertainment and what’s so forth. I never saw any form of indoctrination going on from that. And definitely, never from my schools and so forth.

Why would there be any form of a indoctrination , in a country where you’re free to believe or not believe anything you want. And if there is what you consider indoctrination going on with that be from all sorts of things?

28 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I too grew up in a nonreligious household, and we only had the 3 channels that came over the antenna. And the radio (before talk radio). And starting at 11, I think, I played D&D, and still do, so I was versed in polytheism, in a way, and pantheism, and also monotheism. I remember understanding that the Christian's God was all powerful and created everything, supposedly. 

If you did, where? Because you just said you played D&D. So did I and in many forms. Trust me, that is not the upmost education on polytheism. What  I did learn and still feel I don’t know at all of any form of polytheism is from college, and from lots of things I have read. And I do believe I detected no forms of indoctrination from that. ;)  
I also, don’t understand how you could come to see the Christian God is all powerful, when they were very forms of ideals, religions, and cultural ‘s, where they have their own ideas of what is powerful and what is to be obeyed.

Also on top of that, where there are beliefs about the powerfulness of their gods, there is also those who voice the disbeliefs in them. 
Where I saw somebody voice their feelings of their God, I also saw somebody who proved that that God doesn’t exist. 
Take me for existence, I may have  heard of God or gods or whatever, but I have a hard time believing in their power when I didn’t see it and have never seen it growing up.

35 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Seems hard to me to believe that someone actually escaped christian indoctrination till they were fully adult.

Well, it’s true. Because I and my siblings have. They may have been door knockers, but they were regarded as troublemakers. And we never answered their doors, because they didn’t have a right to do what they’re doing.

And  again, there you go with that word indoctrination. Who really has a right to indoctrinate somebody else?! Have you been indoctrinated into the Jewish faith? Have you been indoctrinated into the Muslim faith? Have you been indoctrinated into the Wiccan faith? Does that sound right to you? It should, that’s how you look at it with the Christian faith.

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Completely escaped, even that God supposely created everything.

If he created everything, why didn’t he show up and teach us that he did? You see, the common sense that is? Escapes you why, but the very thing you’re asking kind of proves the point as to why.

41 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I don't require you accept any of it as a fact. I was responding to the OP, and not evangelizing. He asked for input and opinions so it seemed to me.

Just so to be clear, is it all opinion you’re giving or are you saying some things as complete fact? Are you actually saying, everything about the Christian God is opinion only? If that’s true, then this can be all cleared up.

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Stubbly_Dooright
6 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Why? My belief is based on personal experience, not facts that can be proven. Let the Wiccan, the Muslim, the Hindu... Let them come to me and tell me their beliefs, and ill consider them versus what I've experienced. 

I think you’ve missed my point. It’s not about your personal experience, but what you pointed out that you can’t disapprove a particular belief. 
if you believe one thing because of your experiences, then it should only stay with you. I am not knocking it. But if you’re trying to tell someone to believe in what you believe because they can’t just prove it, then they should expect you to believe in everything else because you can’t disprove all of them either.

8 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Well almost all Bible have the same message. The various "editions" generally only reword the text. They dont intend to rewrite its meaning.

There are some that contain added "books", the Apocrypha, can be found in Catholic and Eastern Orthodox, i believe. And some more radical Bibles have pseudepigrapha "books", which are generally not accepted by the majority. There's also the Book of Mormon. All of these have in common 90+% of the text.

Also nearly all also state the things I said before. God created everything. God is all powerful. And the Devil is the bsd guy.

What are you don’t get, if the various Bibles have the same message, why still the bearing different Christian religions?

I would think, for all the different religions, their books have varying  different things in it too. 

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Stubbly_Dooright
11 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Most Presbyterians believe in the Devil. It is a part of their doctrine. They simply don't talk about it, or ascribe him the power evangelicals and catholics do.

And you might be right, but I do remember my experience. What I was told from a Presbyterian. 
 

12 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I'd again say I'm not attempting to form a logical, or scientific proof. Not trying to convince anyone. I'm refering to the doctrine of a religion the OP asked questions about.

Which, I don’t think you can have it come  across as a fact.

13 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

You dont need to be sorry for me. Be sorry for yourself, if you believe, or don't, and it causes you distress. If not, then why be sorry at all? If I'm fine and you're fine?

Again, you’re missing our misinterpreting what I’m saying. I am apologizing for being blunt with you that is all.

I feel to see, how you think it’s distressing me.

15 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

The Gospels do call for Christians to share. So if asked, I will do so.

I will never ask. So I hope those in your belief system respect that. In the recent past, some haven’t. 
Frankly, myself and my personal belief system considers proselytizers as arrogant. I don’t think anyone has a right to think they know better than others when they feel they have to share something for them.

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XenoFish

No ones opinion is fact. That's why religions are tricky. People treat their beliefs as facts. 

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DieChecker
11 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

LOL

I actually did grew up around that time. And that input wasn’t really all that overwhelming, if I put another spin on it. And from my point of view  and those around me during this time, it wasn’t really that culturally appropriate to assume every person was one particular religion. In fact, growing up during this time and place, they were other religions too. So the thing is, they were all just put in an area where how people live like some families, going  camping in the summer, other families go skiing in the winter, and whatever life happens that are going on. It was some thing, that was left for each family, and not expected others to do. So, there was no indoctrination going on. I find it interesting, that you use the term, Indoctrination. Why do you use that term?

( by the way, I may not have been in the family that was religious but yeah I was in that family that camped in the summer and yes I was also in a family that skied in the winter)

I mean indoctrination not like a evangelist on every corner, but in a pledge of allegiance kind of way. Subtle and kind of on the side, but pushed directly at you at times.

I get what you're saying. But I'd suggest that growing up in a multicultural, multireligious, community would be rare across the US, even today. Maybe in a few places in New York City, or San Francisco...

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There you go again, using the term indoctrination. Where do you expect this indoctrination is going to come from? Because, I didn’t see it. And yes they were TV and movies that had various forms of religion in it but that was just as entertainment and what’s so forth. I never saw any form of indoctrination going on from that. And definitely, never from my schools and so forth.

I'd suggest one of the more eloquent atheists, like Psyche, to explain the pervasive nature of religion in society. Basically they'll tell you it is everywhere. And though the indoctrination is subtle, it is also effective.

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Why would there be any form of a indoctrination , in a country where you’re free to believe or not believe anything you want. And if there is what you consider indoctrination going on with that be from all sorts of things?

 

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If you did, where? Because you just said you played D&D. So did I and in many forms. Trust me, that is not the upmost education on polytheism. What  I did learn and still feel I don’t know at all of any form of polytheism is from college, and from lots of things I have read. And I do believe I detected no forms of indoctrination from that.   
I also, don’t understand how you could come to see the Christian God is all powerful, when they were very forms of ideals, religions, and cultural ‘s, where they have their own ideas of what is powerful and what is to be obeyed.

Also on top of that, where there are beliefs about the powerfulness of their gods, there is also those who voice the disbeliefs in them. 
Where I saw somebody voice their feelings of their God, I also saw somebody who proved that that God doesn’t exist. 
Take me for existence, I may have  heard of God or gods or whatever, but I have a hard time believing in their power when I didn’t see it and have never seen it growing up.

D&D did open up my curiosity and I did read much on religions from our small town library. 

The idea of a all powerful God is a point I'm willing to discuss. I've entertained and written about here on UM that a lot of the descriptions in the Bible suggest God is NOT all powerful.

For example Adam and Eve hide from God after eating the firbidden fruit, and seemingly God doesn't see them. He calls for them to come out. There is many other examples. I am only coming from the base assumption of being all powerful as it is the Christian default doctrine.

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Well, it’s true. Because I and my siblings have. They may have been door knockers, but they were regarded as troublemakers. And we never answered their doors, because they didn’t have a right to do what they’re doing.

I agree troublemakers. I very much disliked the Southern Baptists that came to my Barracks in Georgia saying I'd go to Hell if I didn't go with them. And the one time I did, they demanded cash, or they weren't going to drive me back. So I walked back. 

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And again, there you go with that word indoctrination. Who really has a right to indoctrinate somebody else?! Have you been indoctrinated into the Jewish faith? Have you been indoctrinated into the Muslim faith? Have you been indoctrinated into the Wiccan faith? Does that sound right to you? It should, that’s how you look at it with the Christian faith.

No one has the right to indoctrinate others. Yet it has been done over and over. I can't say I've ever had the opportunity to ever discuss religion with a wiccan, Muslim, or Jew. 

I've lived all over the US, and served in the Army, and went to University twice. Yet never was exposed to many other religions.

According to national statistics, Muslims are less the 2%, Jews are less then 2%, Hindus, Buddhists and Wiccans are all between 0.5% and 1%. So the exposure never was there in the overwhelmingly "White" culture I've lived in. 

Where did you grow up that such a multi blend of religions congregated within a small area?

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If he created everything, why didn’t he show up and teach us that he did? You see, the common sense that is? Escapes you why, but the very thing you’re asking kind of proves the point as to why.

So do you mean right now? Like He'd show up at every homeroom in every high school and start talking?

Because Hid did already tell us everything. Over and over in the Old Testament. And than again through Jesus in the New Testament.

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Just so to be clear, is it all opinion you’re giving or are you saying some things as complete fact? Are you actually saying, everything about the Christian God is opinion only? If that’s true, then this can be all cleared up.

Assuming I'm speaking to the OP which comes from a religious perspective of an assumption of Gid being real, then yes, i am speaking to that as these are facts. Facts as presented by Christian doctrine. The OP is free to disregard these as facts, just as you are. 

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DieChecker
32 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I think you’ve missed my point. It’s not about your personal experience, but what you pointed out that you can’t disapprove a particular belief. 
if you believe one thing because of your experiences, then it should only stay with you. I am not knocking it. But if you’re trying to tell someone to believe in what you believe because they can’t just prove it, then they should expect you to believe in everything else because you can’t disprove all of them either.

Again, the OP asked and I posted a reply based on Christian doctrines. I missed the part where I was forcing, or demanding, people to believe me.

I said... According to Christian myth, and the Bible, XYZ are accepted as facts, and here's my opinion on that. I dont see that as forcing my belief on anyone. Or even requesting that they accept it. I was posting what any Christian would call common knowledge. 

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What are you don’t get, if the various Bibles have the same message, why still the bearing different Christian religions?

I would think, for all the different religions, their books have varying  different things in it too. 

I don't usually call the denominations different religions. With a few exceptions. Denominations are just ways for people to fine tune their belief system to something that they believe brings them closer to God.

This is the basis of what the Apostle Paul taught. In Acts, or Roman's, I believe. Which is shortened into "Anything is permitted in God ", such that if I want to believe Jesus died at 35, while someone else says 40. That does not matter in any real way to God, but if it brings both of us closer to God then both are permitted. Now that's not to say Murder, Theft, and such are OK, but that things that shouldn't matter... don't. 

If a Bible has tons of thee's and thy's, while another starts out with... "Dude... So there was this gnarly old sky meister...". If it carries the same teachings and messages... it doesn't matter the actual text.

Or shouldn't. Some denominations have gone as bad as the Pharisees, with love of rules over love of God.

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Stubbly_Dooright
1 minute ago, DieChecker said:

I mean indoctrination not like a evangelist on every corner, but in a pledge of allegiance kind of way. Subtle and kind of on the side, but pushed directly at you at times.

I get what you're saying. But I'd suggest that growing up in a multicultural, multireligious, community would be rare across the US, even today. Maybe in a few places in New York City, or San Francisco...

I know what you mean by indoctrination. And, in that exact manner you defined it as. And, I still feel that it wasn’t done in that manner here. 

And those type of cultures you consider rare, are not so rare from where I grew up. I saw it a lot growing up in the North East. 

3 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I'd suggest one of the more eloquent atheists, like Psyche, to explain the pervasive nature of religion in society. Basically they'll tell you it is everywhere. And though the indoctrination is subtle, it is also effective.

I respect Psyche a lot. And, I feel, he has a pretty good understanding of our American society, (for an Aussie), than quite a few fellow Americans in my opinion. I also, agree with him too. 

Now, talking about how you consider there being ‘indoctrination’ going on, and in complete utter disbelief that I never went through that, well, I fail to see how one can be ‘indoctrinated’ by others, who don’t have that right. Those who do, never got anywhere. But, where and when I grew up, that was a thing that was looked upon as wrong. Also consider my parents, who would prevent their children from being ‘indoctrinated’ if anyone tried. 

Indoctrination, I feel, is something that is going against what we have a right to do. To not be judged and pushed into something we don’t want. 

9 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

D&D did open up my curiosity and I did read much on religions from our small town library. 

The idea of a all powerful God is a point I'm willing to discuss. I've entertained and written about here on UM that a lot of the descriptions in the Bible suggest God is NOT all powerful.

For example Adam and Eve hide from God after eating the firbidden fruit, and seemingly God doesn't see them. He calls for them to come out. There is many other examples. I am only coming from the base assumption of being all powerful as it is the Christian default doctrine.

Again, I think you’re missing my point. Maybe, I should have said that I couldn’t understand from What you posted about your experiences, how you came to see that. I wasn’t talking on how you think he is seen as a powerful god. 

12 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I agree troublemakers. I very much disliked the Southern Baptists that came to my Barracks in Georgia saying I'd go to Hell if I didn't go with them. And the one time I did, they demanded cash, or they weren't going to drive me back. So I walked back. 

 

12 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

No one has the right to indoctrinate others. Yet it has been done over and over. I can't say I've ever had the opportunity to ever discuss religion with a wiccan, Muslim, or Jew. 

I've lived all over the US, and served in the Army, and went to University twice. Yet never was exposed to many other religions.

According to national statistics, Muslims are less the 2%, Jews are less then 2%, Hindus, Buddhists and Wiccans are all between 0.5% and 1%. So the exposure never was there in the overwhelmingly "White" culture I've lived in. 

Where did you grow up that such a multi blend of religions congregated within a small area?

As a spouse of a retired military individual, I have lived in varying places, and there were the varying cultures and religions. 

Plus, I think I conclude that what you see as indoctrination, I don’t. 

14 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

So do you mean right now? Like He'd show up at every homeroom in every high school and start talking?

Because Hid did already tell us everything. Over and over in the Old Testament. And than again through Jesus in the New Testament.

This just made me groan. Because, yes, I do mean that. And pointing out that he did, in the past, in a book only, is not the same as showing up now in person. You know, a book that I have never been exposed to. If he is what you say he is, then for me to believe him, he would common sense like, show up now. Other than that, I don’t see it as fact. 

17 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Assuming I'm speaking to the OP which comes from a religious perspective of an assumption of Gid being real, then yes, i am speaking to that as these are facts. Facts as presented by Christian doctrine. The OP is free to disregard these as facts, just as you are. 

And for good reason. Because, there is no way, (if I’m going to use my point of view on this) these could be seen a true objective facts. Is Christian doctrine considered a factual source? I have never seen it as a factual source. That is why, if we’re speaking for me, I can’t see this a facts. It’s because, of where it’s coming from. Until, a complete objective and provable source proves they are facts, then I will see them as such. 

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DieChecker
43 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Which, I don’t think you can have it come  across as a fact.

I think it is the word "fact" we're stuck on. How about this...

It is a fact that Christians believe...

  • God created the Universe.
  • God is all powerful. 
  • The Devil is evil and the enemy of humanity.

That's posed in the form of a fact. I stated it is what Christisns believe, not what is...

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I will never ask. So I hope those in your belief system respect that. In the recent past, some haven’t. 
Frankly, myself and my personal belief system considers proselytizers as arrogant. I don’t think anyone has a right to think they know better than others when they feel they have to share something for them.

Question: If you knew someone who was say, vegan, and they seemed happy, would you not investigate veganism to some level? Would you not ask them some questions. I believe it is human nature to ask...

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DieChecker
34 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

No ones opinion is fact. That's why religions are tricky. People treat their beliefs as facts. 

You are right. I think the disconnect was in how I phrased by post.

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Stubbly_Dooright
11 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Again, the OP asked and I posted a reply based on Christian doctrines. I missed the part where I was forcing, or demanding, people to believe me.

What was your point then, when brought up that you can’t disprove a belief (Christian God for example)

12 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I said... According to Christian myth, and the Bible, XYZ are accepted as facts, and here's my opinion on that. I dont see that as forcing my belief on anyone. Or even requesting that they accept it. I was posting what any Christian would call common knowledge. 

This is why, I can never accept this religion as true. What some consider as true, I don’t see it. Though, based on your opinion here, do you see them as facts or not?

 

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Stubbly_Dooright
9 minutes ago, DieChecker said:
58 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

 

I think it is the word "fact" we're stuck on. How about this...

It is a fact that Christians believe...

  • God created the Universe.
  • God is all powerful. 
  • The Devil is evil and the enemy of humanity.

That's posed in the form of a fact. I stated it is what Christisns believe, not what is...

I believe, this discussion came from your post #27: 

Quote

God created all. God is all powerful, all knowing and all seeing. God created angelic beings to do His bidding. The Devil/Satan is an angelic being. As the number two, its his job to take the hits and bad reputation. But ultimately he works for God.

The Devil does go about doing evil things, but such is his nature. Then God gets credit for fixing some of them, and the chaos left unfixed results in mankind getting to exert his own dominion of the Earth to fix things or not. Ultimately the short time on Earth is just testing for the afterlife. Its not what you did here, it is how you did it. Why you did it.

Where did you state that this is what Christians Would believe? If you did, I would agree with your post from the get go. 

And, I do see your reply to Xeno’s post #59

 

Edited by Stubbly_Dooright
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DieChecker
1 minute ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

What was your point then, when brought up that you can’t disprove a belief (Christian God for example)

Mainly toward the believer. That if someone believes, it is basically impossible to make them disbelieve. The individual has to come to the conclusion themself.

Quote

This is why, I can never accept this religion as true. What some consider as true, I don’t see it. Though, based on your opinion here, do you see them as facts or not?

I do, to a greater degree. See my other post on how I probably should have phrased my original post.

My intent was never to say, 100% this is true and everyone can not disagree. I meant to say... "This is what a mainline Christian versed to a degree in basic doctrine would regard as true (factual) in the area of this question."

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DieChecker
4 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I believe, this discussion came from your post #27: 

Where did you state that this is what Christians Would believe? If you did, I would agree with your post from the get go. 

And, I do see your reply to Xeno’s post #59

 

Realizing that I posted that. I posted this minutes latter...

17 hours ago, DieChecker said:

So are you saying God can not be all powerful, or the Devil would not exist?

Fact... God created the Devil (According to Christian Myth).

Fact... God is all powerful. (According to the Bible. And assuming He created everything.)

Deduction... The Devil can not beat God. Thus he either works for God, or God for some reason allows him to exist.

I'd agree as far as it is said the Devil is the "god" of the world. He's all the worst things in humanity that have never been driven out.

I'd argue there are things in society that are good. Charity, Selflessness, giving Hope, even providing things at a reasonable price is beneficial. 

It isn't society, but certain individuals in society that make it suck at times.

Where I specifically call out that this is based on Christian myth and the Bible.

I realized people might call me out on that. So I added this in my post to the OP.

Edited by DieChecker
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Stubbly_Dooright
1 minute ago, DieChecker said:

Mainly toward the believer. That if someone believes, it is basically impossible to make them disbelieve. The individual has to come to the conclusion themself.

Interesting. I have never seen that phrase used for that purpose. I usually see it as a talking point to make a disbeliever believe. 

3 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

I do, to a greater degree. See my other post on how I probably should have phrased my original post.

My intent was never to say, 100% this is true and everyone can not disagree. I meant to say... "This is what a mainline Christian versed to a degree in basic doctrine would regard as true (factual) in the area of this question."

I did. And I posted your original post to show it too. And, what I said there, I would have agreed with you 100%

 

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Stubbly_Dooright
1 minute ago, DieChecker said:

Realizing that I posted that. I posted this minutes latter...

Where I specifically call out that this is based on Christian myth and the Bible.

 

I was referring to an earlier post. 

IN which I think started it all.............(for me....................I’ll admit it) 

But, I think, I had a point. 

Edited by Stubbly_Dooright
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DieChecker
1 minute ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

I was referring to an earlier post. 

So... I should have just gone back to 27 and added a disclaimer?

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Stubbly_Dooright

Dammit, I need a drink!!!!

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Stubbly_Dooright
Just now, DieChecker said:

So... I should have just gone back to 27 and added a disclaimer?

Weeeeeeeeelll, that I what I am thinking. ;)  With an English degree, I can get very ...................... wordy sensitive. :devil:  

If you love me very you would have done that for me! :D  

JUST KIDDING! On that last line.....

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Stubbly_Dooright

I’m such a Diva!!! :gun:

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Stubbly_Dooright

So! @News

How, the Hell are ya?!?!? :D  

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