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If God Would Exist, The Devil Will Not!

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DebDandelion
21 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Interesting. I have never seen that phrase used for that purpose. I usually see it as a talking point to make a disbeliever believe. 

I did. And I posted your original post to show it too. And, what I said there, I would have agreed with you 100%

 

You guys are on a roll, so pardon my two cents. 

Opinion: when someone has come to the point of (hopefully independant thought) deciding religion, (let us use me) I find that it would be very difficult for anyone to sway me from what I believe, because I did come to my decision on my own. 

Now, when I meet someone that has a different belief than me I do not try to convince them to follow what I hold high. I listen, I discuss and I ponder and usually give them something to ponder about. It is not for me to convince them of anything, it is for me to love them, and treat them with respect and put my ego in my pocket cause there is no way that I, me, myself can bring someone to change their religion. 

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DebDandelion
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

No ones opinion is fact. That's why religions are tricky. People treat their beliefs as facts. 

And that is why I like you, cause there are little things me and you agree on! This however is a big thing (I like you even more) 

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XenoFish
2 minutes ago, DebDandelion said:

And that is why I like you, cause there are little things me and you agree on! This however is a big thing (I like you even more) 

I've steadily become agnostic and even indifferently agnostic towards a lot of things. Not just in regards to religion, but science as well.

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Stubbly_Dooright
2 minutes ago, DebDandelion said:

Now, when I meet someone that has a different belief than me I do not try to convince them to follow what I hold high. I listen, I discuss and I ponder and usually give them something to ponder about. It is not for me to convince them of anything, it is for me to love them, and treat them with respect and put my ego in my pocket cause there is no way that I, me, myself can bring someone to change their religion

Granted, you’re saying this in your opinion. Cool! B)

I am trying to understand your point here, when it comes to meeting someone of a different belief. When you say you give them something to ponder, do they welcome it? My point being, are you inviting them or are they inviting themselves or is this a consensual conversation on both sides?

I feel, someone giving someone else something to ponder, can have so many side effects. Or at the least, it might not be something worth pondering about from the other end. What if, they don’t think it’s ponderific? If, you know what I mean?

 

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DebDandelion
2 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

I've steadily become agnostic and even indifferently agnostic towards a lot of things. Not just in regards to religion, but science as well.

(Un) fortunately I am wide eyed and still fascinated by so many things. I enjoy myself when exploring (all things weird and wonderful) 

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XenoFish
4 minutes ago, DebDandelion said:

(Un) fortunately I am wide eyed and still fascinated by so many things. I enjoy myself when exploring (all things weird and wonderful) 

This is what I mean

agnostic_wilson.jpg?ssl=1

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DebDandelion
3 minutes ago, Stubbly_Dooright said:

Granted, you’re saying this in your opinion. Cool! B)

I am trying to understand your point here, when it comes to meeting someone of a different belief. When you say you give them something to ponder, do they welcome it? My point being, are you inviting them or are they inviting themselves or is this a consensual conversation on both sides?

*okay, so when striking up conversation religion doesn't always come up, but when the person prompts the topic I respond in kind. I do not blast people with my faith, I have issues with people doing that. My faith is mine, I live it, I breath it, I don't force it down anyone's throat. Does that answer your question? *

I feel, someone giving someone else something to ponder, can have so many side effects. Or at the least, it might not be something worth pondering about from the other end. What if, they don’t think it’s ponderific? If, you know what I mean?

*LOL, well, I have a friend that points out point blank if any topic I think is amazing is not so amazing by his standards, so I get what you mean. My reaction usually being" I just used up oxygen to tell you this ". So pondering thoughts depends on who you talk with. I don't take offense if it is said I didn't give them food for thought, like I said, it isn't up to me to change someone*

 

 

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DebDandelion
1 minute ago, XenoFish said:

This is what I mean

agnostic_wilson.jpg?ssl=1

I can accept that, then I have to say I also try to see things that way, just with my own flair! Thanx dude

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lightly

Interesting .      I think destruction and creation are two halves of a whole..  Ultimately, we can't have one without the other?Nature is not cruel, because cruelty requires intention and only man has intentions?   Life is born ...and Dies in nature ..  but only man can Murder?  Only man has free will .. We call it Goodness and Evil ?    

If there is a devil, and a God.. The devil hates God...not humanity?  The devil would only be able to hurt God through us.      ?

(Pardon the ?'s desert ? :P.  . I'm posing questions more than I am making statements !  ..we're talking about things that can not be KNOWN .

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XenoFish
18 minutes ago, lightly said:

Interesting .      I think destruction and creation are two halves of a whole..  Ultimately, we can't have one without the other?Nature is not cruel, because cruelty requires intention and only man has intentions?   Life is born ...and Dies in nature ..  but only man can Murder?  Only man has free will .. We call it Goodness and Evil ?    

If there is a devil, and a God.. The devil hates God...not humanity?  The devil would only be able to hurt God through us.      ?

(Pardon the ?'s desert ? :P.  . I'm posing questions more than I am making statements !  ..we're talking about things that can not be KNOWN .

Every act of creation is one of destruction. You can't make a chair without changing (destroying) a tree. 

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Liquid Gardens
3 hours ago, DieChecker said:

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Satan

And thus is the source of every single evil mankind ever worked on. 

There are numerous encounters with Satan in the Bible... Job fir one... and Jesus speaks of him... Always as an Adversery, not as a coworker. 

Although I'm not going to ascribe to the Bible the attribute of 'consistency', I'm not sure about the interpretation here.  We also have the complicating factor of are we going with what the Bible says, or instead with what are the common beliefs of Christians are concerning it - what the Bible actually says be 'damned', ha.

  • There seems to be some very reasonable arguments against Eden's serpent being Satan/the devil just relying on the Bible.  Found this pretty interesting article concerning that question (https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/bible-interpretation/how-the-serpent-became-satan/) but the gist is that the Bible itself nowhere equates them.  Some choice quotes from the article:
    • "Introduced as “the most clever of all of the beasts of the field that YHWH God had made,” the serpent in the Garden of Eden is portrayed as just that: a serpent. Satan does not make an appearance in Genesis 2–3, for the simple reason that when the story was written, the concept of the devil had not yet been invented. "
    • "So if there’s no Satan in the Hebrew Bible, where does the devil come into the details of Eden?

      The worldview of Jewish readers of Genesis 2–3 profoundly changed in the centuries since the story was first written. After the canon of the Hebrew Bible closed,1 beliefs in angels, demons and a final apocalyptic battle arose in a divided and turbulent Jewish community. In light of this impending end, many turned to a renewed understanding of the beginning, and the Garden of Eden was re-read—and re-written—to reflect the changing ideas of a changed world. Two separate things happened and then merged: Satan became the proper name of the devil, a supernatural power now seen to oppose God as the leader of demons and the forces of evil; and the serpent in the Garden of Eden came to be identified with him. While we begin to see the first idea occurring in texts two centuries before the New Testament, the second won’t happen until later; Eden’s serpent is not identified with Satan anywhere in the Hebrew Bible or New Testament."

    • "In the New Testament, Satan and his demons have the power to enter and possess people; this is what is said to have happened to Judas (Luke 22:3; John 13:27; cf. Mark 5:12–13; Luke 8:30–32). But when Paul re-tells the story of Adam and Eve, he places the blame on the humans (Romans 5:18; cf. 1 Corinthians 15:21–22) and not on fallen angels, or on the serpent as Satan. Still, the conflation begged to be made, and it will seem natural for later Christian authors—Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Cyprian, Irenaeus and Augustine, for example—to assume Satan’s association with Eden’s talking snake. Most famously, in the 17th century, John Milton elaborates Satan’s role in the Garden poetically, in great detail in Paradise Lost. But this connection is not forged anywhere in the Bible."

  • It seems odd to me to put 'the source of' all evil on the serpent; it didn't force Eve to disobey God, merely suggested it, and to me it's even questionable as to who was misleading A&E, God or the Serpent - depends on what one thinks 'you will surely die' means I think.  No serpent or satan brought into being this fallen world, that was God's doing and idea of just punishment, the serpent doesn't have that power.  Nor did the serpent have the power to bring sin into A&E and thus the world.
  • Job is a good example I think of how things have changed since then.  The article above talks about how another way of thinking of satan, in the OT at least, is like you said as 'adversary' but also 'accuser'.  That's exactly what Satan does in Job, accuses Job (through God) essentially of being righteous only because of God's more material blessings.  It is God who in response to the accusation brings up the idea of letting Satan take away everything Job has.  Satan is clearly doing what he was instructed to by God, so shouldn't God then be the source of the evil done to Job?

Agreed, in the NT things turn and Satan is more an evil being, possessing people and generally trying to disrupt the plan for salvation through Jesus.  This though runs through the implications of what you noted also, that god is the ultimate creator and omnipotent.  To the extent that is true, Satan's efforts to disrupt the plan for salvation were never going to succeed in my view, so I'm not sure how 'evil' those efforts can be considered to be.  Yes, possessing people is evil, it causes harm, but remember that our lower bar for God's evil is ordering bashing babies' heads which I'm not sure the evil of possession reaches, let alone the flood.

Actually on a separate note, I was thinking about whether or not, contrary to what I said above, that Satan's attempt to thwart the plan for salvation does count as evil if it had a chance to succeed.  If Jesus would have accepted the offer Satan made in his final temptations and gave up his role in Salvation, then that would I guess be evil and a pretty big one.  I'm not sure that idea applies though, and especially not from a 'common Christian understanding' point of view: what is more commonly praised is that 'God sent his only son to die for our sins' and not as often 'Jesus decided to sacrifice himself for our sins' in my experience.  Of course Jesus is usually also 'one' with God, but then Jesus asks God in Gethsemane if there's any chance 'the cup can pass him by' and he be spared, it's kinda a schizophrenic mess so tough to say anything definite.

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Stubbly_Dooright
2 hours ago, DebDandelion said:

*okay, so when striking up conversation religion doesn't always come up, but when the person prompts the topic I respond in kind. I do not blast people with my faith, I have issues with people doing that. My faith is mine, I live it, I breath it, I don't force it down anyone's throat. Does that answer your question? 

Yes it does. :D

and I feel the same way about my own faith. Thank you.

2 hours ago, DebDandelion said:

 

*LOL, well, I have a friend that points out point blank if any topic I think is amazing is not so amazing by his standards, so I get what you mean. My reaction usually being" I just used up oxygen to tell you this ". So pondering thoughts depends on who you talk with. I don't take offense if it is said I didn't give them food for thought, like I said, it isn't up to me to change someone*

OK, I see what you were saying. I like what you’re saying. Thank you again.

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Stubbly_Dooright
1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

Every act of creation is one of destruction. You can't make a chair without changing (destroying) a tree. 

The Genesis device, from Star Trek particularly ‘Star Trek: the wrath of Kahn’, it’s probably a good example of this. I remember, I think, there was a philosophical discussion in which that device could also be used as a weapon as well as a device to create life. 
 

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DieChecker
9 hours ago, XenoFish said:

This is what I mean

agnostic_wilson.jpg?ssl=1

Question: Would it be required to doubt ones own belief system in order to have a chance to honestly understand another?

If one is agnostic about religion X, are they really viewing the world through X. And if not, then is viewing the world by way of agnosticism about everything going to give a world view at all?

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DebDandelion
31 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Question: Would it be required to doubt ones own belief system in order to have a chance to honestly understand another?

If one is agnostic about religion X, are they really viewing the world through X. And if not, then is viewing the world by way of agnosticism about everything going to give a world view at all?

Personal opinion here on half of the question. 

I have never, will never and am not planning to doubt my own belief system. But I approach every single person in an open mind. I listen to what they (for this topic belief) say, I see similarities, I acknowledge differences and I do employ my brain to understand where they come from and how they believe. I don't have to agree with it to respect it, I don't have to doubt my own to allow acknowledgement and understanding of what they believe. So for me, this one I feel you don't have to doubt your own structure to allow you to understand another. 

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Mr Walker
On 10/7/2020 at 2:52 PM, News said:

If you think about the true image of god (created) all powerful! Then the devil would not have a chance to be...

Please, Please, contradict me with facts!

I do believe god exist in nature, and the devil rules in society. For everything in nature is a miracle, and everything in society is a fraud!

Do you agree with all the above, part or none?

0.jpg

it is very simple

That is a false dichotomy /conundrum. 

Many people have  explained why it is false, over the years.

God exists. "He"  allows, even encourages, humans to use their free will.

Thus everything we do is neither caused by the devil, nor by god, but by our own choices 

 Thus (in christian theology) the devil is simply a being who chose evil  and encourages others to make the same choice 

In this  belief system god COULD have made angels and humans incapable of free choice  and free will.

But this would have been a truly evil act,  given our self  aware nature.

It would be like creating a child who had no choice but to be perfect,and thus never had any choice in their thoughts or behaviours.

  The y could never grow, evolve, and improve, and the y could never BE good or evil, because both of those  require a conscious choice   

There is no evil or good in nature, simply because nature (outside of humanity)  cannot make such choices.  It can not BE good or evil, and thus cannot be accounted/judged as good or evil. 

 

Edited by Mr Walker
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Mr Walker
On 10/7/2020 at 8:32 PM, XenoFish said:

Why not just go with God is nature. No need to worship nature or start holy wars over nature. 

 Ah, but do you follow the sun or the moon? The earth or the sky?  What is human's proper role within the natural ecosystem ? Humans can start (holy) wars over anything 

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XenoFish
6 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Question: Would it be required to doubt ones own belief system in order to have a chance to honestly understand another?

If one is agnostic about religion X, are they really viewing the world through X. And if not, then is viewing the world by way of agnosticism about everything going to give a world view at all?

I'm skeptical about everything. Because I could be wrong on many things, however I need something solid in order to stand corrected.

General agnosticism is a neither neither state of mind. Where nothing is held with absolute certainty. 

I do not know with absolute certainty that God does/n't exist. Because I have no true measure for it. I am fairly certain that our concepts of god are human ideas. 

So I can't take a pure a/theist stance. Mostly due to the possibility of being wrong. I can only go with the evidence I have, yet still open to change. 

Basically I'm kinda useless around here. 

Edited by XenoFish
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Noteverythingisaconspiracy
2 hours ago, XenoFish said:

I'm skeptical about everything. Because I could be wrong on many things, however I need something solid in order to stand corrected.

General agnosticism is a neither neither state of mind. Where nothing is held with absolute certainty. 

I do not know with absolute certainty that God does/n't exist. Because I have no true measure for it. I am fairly certain that our concepts of god are human ideas. 

So I can't take a pure a/theist stance. Mostly due to the possibility of being wrong. I can only go with the evidence I have, yet still open to change. 

Basically I'm kinda useless around here. 

Your not useless, your honest.

My position is similar.

Do I believe there is no god/gods: Yes.

Do I know there is no god/gods: No.

Edited by Noteverythingisaconspiracy
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XenoFish
3 hours ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Your not useless, your honest.

My position is similar.

Do I believe there is no god/gods: Yes.

Do I know there is no god/gods: No.

It just seems strange to me now. The stance of pure certainty. With this thread it's all about speculation. If god exist, the devil will not! It's not a question. If god exist, the devil will not? This makes it something very different. More asking rather than proclaiming. 

As for myself I don't care all that much for being adamant about things. Especially things that constantly change. 

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Guyver
On 10/6/2020 at 9:22 PM, News said:

If you think about the true image of god (created) all powerful! Then the devil would not have a chance to be...

Please, Please, contradict me with facts!

I do believe god exist in nature, and the devil rules in society. For everything in nature is a miracle, and everything in society is a fraud!

Do you agree with all the above, part or none?

 

No, I don’t agree because your statement logically contradicts.  On the one hand you say if God exists, the devil does not.  I agree with that part.  But, you go on to say that God exists in nature but the devil rules society.  Unless we are the devil, your statement makes no sense.

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Stubbly_Dooright
7 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Basically I'm kinda useless around here. 

I liked your post, but I disagree with that line. You make great posts with thought provoking ideas. I find you very useful!!!

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lightly
1 hour ago, Guyver said:

No, I don’t agree because your statement logically contradicts.  On the one hand you say if God exists, the devil does not.  I agree with that part.  But, you go on to say that God exists in nature but the devil rules society.  Unless we are the devil, your statement makes no sense.

I find that a little confusing too....only the devil's involvement in society and none of God's.    I just have to say that if God exists in nature...God exists in us...because we are part of Nature.    .

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lightly
On October 7, 2020 at 12:22 AM, News said:

If you think about the true image of god 

0.jpg

          Sure, he's invisible and everything.... ..but that's a good picture of God.

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Raptor Witness
On 10/7/2020 at 5:17 AM, psyche101 said:

If god exists, explain Ozzy Osbourne.

This would make a great thread.

 

Edited by Raptor Witness

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