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Penrose: there was a universe before this one


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I was wondering the other day...if there  might be very small, even microscopic black holes at the center of anything with 'gravity'.   ???    That idea might be an explanation of how and why planets form.  ???   Larger black holes at the center of larger things...like stars and Galaxies ?

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1 hour ago, lightly said:

I was wondering the other day...if there  might be very small, even microscopic black holes at the center of anything with 'gravity'.   ???    That idea might be an explanation of how and why planets form.  ???   Larger black holes at the center of larger things...like stars and Galaxies ?

Interesting idea, but wouldn't even the smallest black hole be strong enough to suck everything in and just keep getting larger and more powerful as it absorbed more dust and rocks? Honest question. If some of our more Astro savvy members could explain this I would appreciate it.

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Inside every atom, it's a micro black hole. Anything that sucks, pulls is a kind of black hole.
We could still be inside a Big Bang. Since we are inside, we just couldn't see it, but we know it's expanding fast.
We could be in a black hole, we just couldn't see it, and another world / alien couldn't detect us. Each world is a black hole, therefore no alien found us.
Black hole bends light so strong that we have the feeling that our universe is infinite or it takes billions of light years to reach the edge of the universe; but it's just light that run inside a round loop, spinning like a snail shell.

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4 hours ago, Taun said:

Interesting idea, but wouldn't even the smallest black hole be strong enough to suck everything in and just keep getting larger and more powerful as it absorbed more dust and rocks? Honest question. If some of our more Astro savvy members could explain this I would appreciate it.

Howdy Taun,  I don't know exactly.. I'll ask the one at the center of our galaxy if it is getting larger and more powerful .. .  ..  .. .    .    Hmm,   It appears to be too busy to answer right now.  

      If so,   I'd guess that would be a Very slow process?   ...it hasn't sucked this rock in yet .  

...hehe, yup.. AstroHarte could probably tell us.  :P

Edited by lightly
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4 hours ago, FlyingAngel said:

Inside every atom, it's a micro black hole. Anything that sucks, pulls is a kind of black hole.
We could still be inside a Big Bang. Since we are inside, we just couldn't see it, but we know it's expanding fast.
We could be in a black hole, we just couldn't see it, and another world / alien couldn't detect us. Each world is a black hole, therefore no alien found us.
Black hole bends light so strong that we have the feeling that our universe is infinite or it takes billions of light years to reach the edge of the universe; but it's just light that run inside a round loop, spinning like a snail shell.

I like that ^       I always end up thinking about a circle when i think about the universe.   Is a circle  finite or infinite?  I dunno.  It's just fun to think about.

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Quote

...and if true, could help to prove that the universe, far from arriving from nothing and disappearing into nothing, will cycle on (and has cycled on) for all eternity.

But, why?

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The Big Bang was not the beginning. There was something before the Big Bang and that something is what we will have in our future.

but  I don't think there is another universe there 'Hawking describes,  but more like a heaven :) 

I agree why there are so many black holes, one in our galaxy that sucks our awareness back in .People that have NDE`s say they feel like going through a black hole. One women said she felt like a sweeper was sucking her in a black hole and had no fear   

Edited by docyabut2
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9 hours ago, Taun said:

Interesting idea, but wouldn't even the smallest black hole be strong enough to suck everything in and just keep getting larger and more powerful as it absorbed more dust and rocks? Honest question. If some of our more Astro savvy members could explain this I would appreciate it.

Just because it's a black hole it doesn't mean it has a strong gravitational pull. A black hole the weight of the Earth that's 6371km from you will pull you with the same force as the earth is pulling you now. The strength of the force is determined by the mass and your distance from it, that's all. Beyond that how dense or small it is makes no difference. So to answer your question, no, a small black hole will not "suck everything in". It will just float in space like a particle would.

To dumb it down as much as possible, imagine a carbon atom with its nucleus of 6 protons and 6 neutrons and the electrons "circling" around it. If the nucleus were to collapse and form a black hole, it would not "suck in" the electrons, however close they are. This works on all scales. If the sun were massive enough and collapsed into a black hole (for simplicity without a supernova-explosion) it would not suck in the planets. The planets would carry on in their orbits unchanged. Why? Because the mass of the Sun didn't change and neither did the planets' distance or speed in the orbit. 

To sum it up, just because an object becomes denser does not increase its gravitational pull. A black hole the mass of the Earth would only "keep getting larger and more powerful", as you say, at the same speed as the Earth itself in its current form is, which is about 40,000 tonnes a year. This depends on the environment of course - how much stuff is around to hoover up? The only significant difference between the Erath and an Earth-mass black hole would be the fact that the Earth can (and does) lose mass due to things like radiation, gases escaping the atmosphere, and the occasional collision with other objects, which might also break it apart one day - things that may not happen when the object is a black hole. For that reason a black hole may only gain in mass, and never lose any (ignore Hawking-radiation for this discussion).

Does that make sense?

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9 hours ago, Jon the frog said:

We are so ****** and irrelevant in the universe...

compared to who/what?

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5 hours ago, Rolci said:

Just because it's a black hole it doesn't mean it has a strong gravitational pull. A black hole the weight of the Earth that's 6371km from you will pull you with the same force as the earth is pulling you now. The strength of the force is determined by the mass and your distance from it, that's all. Beyond that how dense or small it is makes no difference. So to answer your question, no, a small black hole will not "suck everything in". It will just float in space like a particle would.

Does that make sense?

The only difference is the Sun emit its light force and energy to external world and eventually lose its power. A black hole will just keep getting stronger and stronger (only when he eats external energy), therefore its gravitational force. So one day the Earth will also be eaten, yeah.

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24 minutes ago, FlyingAngel said:

The only difference is the Sun emit its light force and energy to external world and eventually lose its power. A black hole will just keep getting stronger and stronger (only when he eats external energy), therefore its gravitational force. So one day the Earth will also be eaten, yeah.

You said above, only when he eats external energy. My question is why do you call it He?:)

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7 hours ago, Rolci said:

Just because it's a black hole it doesn't mean it has a strong gravitational pull. A black hole the weight of the Earth that's 6371km from you will pull you with the same force as the earth is pulling you now. The strength of the force is determined by the mass and your distance from it, that's all. Beyond that how dense or small it is makes no difference. So to answer your question, no, a small black hole will not "suck everything in". It will just float in space like a particle would.

That makes perfect sense: thank you for such a clear explanation.  IMO a lot of the confusion around black holes is their name, and how physicists attempt to describe them to non-physicists.  A black hole is not a "hole", and the model of a mass distorting a 2D surface is inadequate to visualise the true picture.

Things We Don't Know: Mapping spacetime around supermassive black holes

When I am World President (for Life) one of my declarations will be to rename black holes as black spheres, to emphasise their 3D-ness.  And I will appoint someone clever and articulate to come up with a better model than the one above.  Maybe using a 3D computer simulation, or string or something.

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17 hours ago, Jon the frog said:

We are so ****** and irrelevant in the universe...

I wouldn't say that. We are all so small but never devalue yourself.

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18 hours ago, lightly said:

I was wondering the other day...if there  might be very small, even microscopic black holes at the center of anything with 'gravity'.   ???  

Everything that has a mass has gravity, even potatoes. If we now take the black holes at the center of anything hypothesis into consideration, each potato (must) have either one or several micro black wholes in it as the offspring of 1 potato is >1. So there are at leat 2 questions: what force make a micro black whole to divide itself and/or what force make a micro black whole cluster so separate? As we didnt monitored such behaviour on the macro scale its likely it will not happen at micro scale.

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13 hours ago, Rolci said:

Just because it's a black hole it doesn't mean it has a strong gravitational pull.

 

Does that make sense?

Thanks for your explanation! The only question I have about it is your opening line. Isn't the very definition of a "Black Hole" an object that is so gravitationaly powerful that even light (photons) cannot escape it's gravity? Hence it's name? Perhaps that is what "Dark Matter" actually is? (Or am I opening a new can of worms?) Granted a "low mass" black hole would have a correspondingly smaller area of effect - but still be extremely strong. Unless I'm confused (always a possibility :))

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What I wanna know is, if there's one, why not two? Or ten? Or a thousand? Or ten thousand? 

Will there be another one after this one? 

If so... 

~

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18 hours ago, Rolci said:

 

To dumb it down as much as possible, 

Much appreciated Rolci..    All Very interesting !    ....but maybe still not dumb enough for me to fully grasp  ;)

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On October 10, 2020 at 3:12 AM, toast said:

Everything that has a mass has gravity, even potatoes. 

 

      I love a mass of potatoes with gravyti 

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2 hours ago, lightly said:

 

      I love a mass of potatoes with gravyti 

:yes::tu:

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I was just reading about some of the ideas of  (physicist). .Leonard Susskind .   It was about how black holes Grow  in mass and 'complexity'  and not in Physical Size.   And that they, somehow, expand Inwardly !   Like our Universe does !   Our universe doesn't expand outwardly. . Into some other 'space'.   .(because there Is no 'other' space). .It expands at Every point  Within Itself !        :w00t:

                 

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On 10/10/2020 at 12:57 AM, FlyingAngel said:

The only difference is the Sun emit its light force and energy to external world and eventually lose its power. A black hole will just keep getting stronger and stronger (only when he eats external energy), therefore its gravitational force. So one day the Earth will also be eaten, yeah.

Nope. Black holes slowly evaporate through hawking radiation 

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