Virgin Mary chalk drawing reappears 13 yrs on

[Mr Walker]

52 minutes ago, eight bits said:

What has Psyche to do with the topic of this thread? A chalk drawing of a popular subject was found just where somebody else had drawn the same subject in chalk 13 years before.

Psyche didn't do it. He has an alibi. Somebody else drew the thing. Big whoop.

 

papageorge said miracles happen.

Psyche said they did not.

Some of the words he used for THIS example included; incredible,  extremely silly.  such a ridiculous idea.

Given the definition of miracle, papa is right, and psyche is wrong.

Miracles happen every minute, around the world.  These are not necessarily divine, and certainly are not limited to the christian divinity.

Often they are given a religious interpretation by a religious beneficiary 

Was this  example a miracle? Probably not, but the point is that it could have been,  because miracles do happen. NOT that it could not have been, because miracles do not occur 

I notice you logically,  correctly base you choice on probability. Psyche says it is simply impossible  (not improbable)  because he knows that miracles don't occur and gods don't exist  (two separate  issues but, given tha t many see miracles as divine, an understandable conflation )  

You don't go anywhere near that far, and i happen to agree with you.  It is highly improbable (but not impossible)  that this was a genuine miracle)  I've seen stranger (ie less probable) things happen 

Edited October 17, 2020 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Please outline one instance of something you can prove or demonstrate is BS, coming from  my posts.

You might not like (or believe)  some of my claims or experiences or views That doesn't make them untruthful and certainly doesn't make them BS  You are required to demonstrate that i am lying or BSting  if you want to make such a claim. 

 8 bits When you've stopped laughing, see if YOU can give an example of something i have posted which can be proven to be a lie or BS   

[+razman]

Geez ,it reappeared ? that ought to fix things in the world , that 'll show us.

 

Edited October 17, 2020 by razman

[eight bits]

3 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

papageorge said miracles happen.

Psyche said they did not.

Psyche and papageorge disagree. Stop the internet.

I don't doubt that each poster's views on miracles in general are reflected in their reactions to the current topic in particular. That doesn't change that the topic is a specific chalk drawing and its co-location with an earlier chalk drawing. If even you can agree that as "miracles" go, this one doesn't budge, then what's the point in renewing your on-going peeing contest with Psyche?

I was thinking the other day about back when we had a poster here on UM who'd seen a child's broken face spontaneously heal before her very eyes. (Apparently it's a "thing," too; a nurse friend of mine IRL told me she'd encountered a similar anecdote from a Christian booster.)

Now that's something to discuss. Those were the days.

Quote

 8 bits When you've stopped laughing, see if YOU can give an example of something i have posted which can be proven to be a lie or BS   

I think the whale fiasco, already posted, covers the point neatly. And as Jay so often reminds you, there actually is a thread where your B ... best adventures are on-topic. As opposed to this thread, where they aren't.

 

Edited October 17, 2020 by eight bits

[Rlyeh]

On 10/16/2020 at 11:41 AM, papageorge1 said:

Stop bickering.  Closed-mindedness by certain members  is the enemy of reason.

You ARE the enemy of reason.

[Rlyeh]

On 10/16/2020 at 6:38 PM, Mr Walker said:

it remains a miracle until the reasons why/how it did that  can be proven or at least logically explained   

Pretty sure that's an argument from ignorance.

[danydandan]

28 minutes ago, Rlyeh said:

Pretty sure that's an argument from ignorance.

Multiple logical fallacies in MrWalkers statement, as per usual.

Hasty Conclusion, Appeal to Ignorance and, I believe a good ole, Casual Fallacy. Probably more too.

[XenoFish]

4 hours ago, eight bits said:

[Insert name here] and papageorge disagree.

That's the usual. 

 

[papageorge1]

1 hour ago, Rlyeh said:

You ARE the enemy of reason.

Shame. Non-substantive attack posts ARE the enemy of this forum (per mods).

[TashaMarie]

Its cool that the drawing has reappeared or at least appears more vivid than it has in previous years but I do not think its a miracle.  If they want to send a miracle how about eliminating childhood illnesses that kill an obscene amount of children each year that would be a nice start for me.

[csspwns]

12 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

papageorge said miracles happen.

Psyche said they did not.

Some of the words he used for THIS example included; incredible,  extremely silly.  such a ridiculous idea.

Given the definition of miracle, papa is right, and psyche is wrong.

Miracles happen every minute, around the world.  These are not necessarily divine, and certainly are not limited to the christian divinity.

Often they are given a religious interpretation by a religious beneficiary 

Was this  example a miracle? Probably not, but the point is that it could have been,  because miracles do happen. NOT that it could not have been, because miracles do not occur 

I notice you logically,  correctly base you choice on probability. Psyche says it is simply impossible  (not improbable)  because he knows that miracles don't occur and gods don't exist  (two separate  issues but, given tha t many see miracles as divine, an understandable conflation )  

You don't go anywhere near that far, and i happen to agree with you.  It is highly improbable (but not impossible)  that this was a genuine miracle)  I've seen stranger (ie less probable) things happen 

Probability and medical miracles definitely do happen because they are POSSIBLE but just have low odds of happening mostly due to a multitude of factors going right at the same time. Divine miracles on the other hand...can you show a SINGLE instance or case that can be considered a divine miracle beyond reasonable doubt? In the old days without recordings, there were claims of grand scale divine miraculous events happening in pretty much all religions. However now that we have the ability to record events, divine miracles have become relegated to the scale of a chalk icon smacked on a parking lot. Don't you find that weird? Where are the modern day miraculous events that are truly unexplainable, outside the realm of possiblity and could only be explained by the divine?

Edited October 17, 2020 by csspwns

[Mr Walker]

12 hours ago, eight bits said:

Psyche and papageorge disagree. Stop the internet.

I don't doubt that each poster's views on miracles in general are reflected in their reactions to the current topic in particular. That doesn't change that the topic is a specific chalk drawing and its co-location with an earlier chalk drawing. If even you can agree that as "miracles" go, this one doesn't budge, then what's the point in renewing your on-going peeing contest with Psyche?

I was thinking the other day about back when we had a poster here on UM who'd seen a child's broken face spontaneously heal before her very eyes. (Apparently it's a "thing," too; a nurse friend of mine IRL told me she'd encountered a similar anecdote from a Christian booster.)

Now that's something to discuss. Those were the days.

I think the whale fiasco, already posted, covers the point neatly. And as Jay so often reminds you, there actually is a thread where your B ... best adventures are on-topic. As opposed to this thread, where they aren't.

 

With the whale,  I was neither in  known /certain error, nor lying

It is interesting that,  after tha t acrimonious debate, and me being proven correct,  against all the accusations ranged against me,  that all  you and a few others take from  it is that, after almost 50 years  i wasn't sure if the whale escaped by itself or was helped 

No one else is any more certain than me either.

Habitat's contact said tha t divers helped the whale escape. I saw on the news the whale swimming over the pontoon surround of the enclosure 

So either story remains possibly true/false.   Indeed both are simultaneously possible ie the divers enabled the whale to get free but it did so by itself  

The big picture is tha t, despite vehement denials that this ever happened,  and accusations that, (for some unknown reason) i was lying, i was correct 

So   you have nothing else (no evidences )  to justify an accusation  of lying or BSing?  

[Mr Walker]

2 hours ago, csspwns said:

Probability and medical miracles definitely do happen because they are POSSIBLE but just have low odds of happening mostly due to a multitude of factors going right at the same time. Divine miracles on the other hand...can you show a SINGLE instance or case that can be considered a divine miracle beyond reasonable doubt? In the old days without recordings, there were claims of grand scale divine miraculous events happening in pretty much all religions. However now that we have the ability to record events, divine miracles have become relegated to the scale of a chalk icon smacked on a parking lot. Don't you find that weird? Where are the modern day miraculous events that are truly unexplainable, outside the realm of possiblity and could only be explained by the divine?

If something happens then self  evidently it was possible 

it becomes a miracle when known science and evidences cannot explain how or why it was possible and occurred  Future advances in technology and science might allow us to explain what now seems miraculous and even replicate it ourlseves but for now such things are miracles 

You have to make up your own mind  what constitutes reasonable doubt 

Ive experienced  dozens of  witnessed physical miracles in my life which defy scientific  explanation Sometimes the y might be explained by totally weird /improbable factors but this means you  chose to believe the weird and improbable over the miraculous 

I was involved in a big bushfire which destroyed out  house 

I  (and my wife) was saved by  miraculous intervention 

A book was published of the fires and peoples accounts (mine wasn't in it) MANY of the survivors described the presence and protective power of a "god"  which intervened to save their lives 

The question then is, why did 6 people perish including young children and an elderly couple when others like us were saved by "god's " intervention?

I dont know the answer to that but i do know tha t our lives were saved by a direct warning from  "god" and its protective empowering presence over us, as we fled through the fire and dense smoke without injury I am used to gods voice and presence.

i heard, acted on, and obeyed its warnings and instructions and reassurances.

Perhaps some of those who died either couldn't hear god or maybe, in their panic, didn't listen to  or follow its  advice   

[Dejarma]

3 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

it becomes a miracle when known science and evidences cannot explain how or why it was possible and occurred

what occurred? = a story occurred, nothing more.. science will not spend time, effort etc on a story

[psyche101]

On 10/16/2020 at 6:08 PM, Mr Walker said:

lol  My credibility is not the issue 

Yes if is. I am not interested in lowering myself to your standard we are done. I have conversed quite a lot with you, and I see no redeeming features or any possibility of future productive discussion. You are just a waste of my time. 

[eight bits]

8 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

So   you have nothing else (no evidences )  to justify an accusation  of lying or BSing?  

Your participation in the discussion of the whale you dreamt compared with the real whale took place here, on the open forum.

With your other tales, you often muse that if only we'd witnessed what you'd witnessed, then we'd agree with you. Well, this time, we were all gathered in the same place. We all saw what you posted from the initial BS about something physically impossible, through your protracted (and not especially polite on your part) interaction with - horror of horrors - somebody who actually knew what they were talking about, until your final trimming of your story back down to the nothingburger it always was. Followed, then and now, with the false claim that that was your story all along.

OK, the experiment's been done. We all saw the same thing, and we disagree.

Of the many other bullshy Walker performances that I've witnessed here online, the one that I think is closest to the topic of the thread is when you miraculously looked both ways at an ungated railroad crossing and thereby noticed an oncoming train. Thus divinely informed of the peril, you prudently let the train have the right of way. Truly the equal of a chalk portrait of the Virgin - and in the same place as one was drawn years ago!

My favorite is the radio whose condensers-capacitors had stored just enough juice to receive an urgent broadcast warning. That's a good story, it doesn't need embellishment, but you lard it up anyway. Of course.

Statistics came up recently. You have at best only the foggiest notion of how "horse-race" polls work, but you declared victory about that, too. Go back ten years or so, and I was explaining the elementary probabilities of playing cards to you, in the context of your claim that you could predict the cards better than chance. (I haven't heard that one in a while, an oldie but goodie).

Then there's the only consistently interesting part of your life, your dreams. You're a frequent lucid dreamer. That's something - many people aspire to dream lucidly. But you don't do anything interesting with that skill (just what's usual in that community: flying and unattainablie-in-real-life sex partners). And it has emerged recently that you plainly don't know when you're asleep and when you're awake (not that anybody is 100% about that), so you sometimes confuse your ordinary (non-lucid) dreams with waking reality.

That will do. The whale story, already posted, does neatly cover the point IMO. Like any one story, however, it cannot do justice to the sheer volume of BS you've served up in a long and distinguished posting career.

Whether you are lying or not doesn't interest me. I could be persuaded. Regardless, you are unreliable. You offer some entertainment and easy target practice ('let's see how many different fallacies we can identify in that Walker post').

Accept your role in the community. And don't look at us - you're the one who's carved out this niche for yourself.

 

Edited October 18, 2020 by eight bits

[TashaMarie]

9 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I was involved in a big bushfire which destroyed out  house 

I  (and my wife) was saved by  miraculous intervention 

A book was published of the fires and peoples accounts (mine wasn't in it) MANY of the survivors described the presence and protective power of a "god"  which intervened to save their lives 

The question then is, why did 6 people perish including young children and an elderly couple when others like us were saved by "god's " intervention?

I dont know the answer to that but i do know tha t our lives were saved by a direct warning from  "god" and its protective empowering presence over us, as we fled through the fire and dense smoke without injury I am used to gods voice and presence.

i heard, acted on, and obeyed its warnings and instructions and reassurances.

Perhaps some of those who died either couldn't hear god or maybe, in their panic, didn't listen to  or follow its  advice   

So for now I am putting aside my sceptic nature and asking if god saved you from the fire allowing you live while allowing others died.  What have you done since to prove that you were worth this miracle?  How have you used it to better the world? 

[+Liquid Gardens]

On 10/17/2020 at 4:02 AM, Mr Walker said:

i got one detail wrong

Agreed, and thus you admit you have already been provided what you requested:  "give me ONE statement i have ever made which you can PROVE is untrue".  Your spin on your mistake and usual self-promoting hand-waving is irrelevant, the above was the only thing at issue.

[jmccr8]

9 hours ago, TashaMarie said:

So for now I am putting aside my sceptic nature and asking if god saved you from the fire allowing you live while allowing others died.  What have you done since to prove that you were worth this miracle?  How have you used it to better the world? 

Hi TashaMarie

Well he did join the forum so that he could teach us how to live a wonderful life using himself as a barometer.

jmccr8

[Mr Walker]

11 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Agreed, and thus you admit you have already been provided what you requested:  "give me ONE statement i have ever made which you can PROVE is untrue".  Your spin on your mistake and usual self-promoting hand-waving is irrelevant, the above was the only thing at issue.

No I dont admit any such thing.

that is your false interpretation of that instance.

I guess that, after i won tha t debate so convincingly and embarrassed so many posters    some  people had to try and find something to justify their attitude towards me 

Even today no one can prove   for sure what  exactly happened  I reported what i observed and what i remembered 

So this does not prove that anything i said was untrue, because the truth is not known.

it certainly does not prove i was lying or being deceptive 

But  just for argument's sake, lets say i accept your pov 

That's all anyone has to go on to argue i am lying deceptive etc after 15 years of posting and 33000 posts ?

Gotta spend some time rolling on my carpet   

 

Edited October 19, 2020 by Mr Walker

[Mr Walker]

19 hours ago, eight bits said:

Your participation in the discussion of the whale you dreamt compared with the real whale took place here, on the open forum.

With your other tales, you often muse that if only we'd witnessed what you'd witnessed, then we'd agree with you. Well, this time, we were all gathered in the same place. We all saw what you posted from the initial BS about something physically impossible, through your protracted (and not especially polite on your part) interaction with - horror of horrors - somebody who actually knew what they were talking about, until your final trimming of your story back down to the nothingburger it always was. Followed, then and now, with the false claim that that was your story all along.

OK, the experiment's been done. We all saw the same thing, and we disagree.

Of the many other bullshy Walker performances that I've witnessed here online, the one that I think is closest to the topic of the thread is when you miraculously looked both ways at an ungated railroad crossing and thereby noticed an oncoming train. Thus divinely informed of the peril, you prudently let the train have the right of way. Truly the equal of a chalk portrait of the Virgin - and in the same place as one was drawn years ago!

My favorite is the radio whose condensers-capacitors had stored just enough juice to receive an urgent broadcast warning. That's a good story, it doesn't need embellishment, but you lard it up anyway. Of course.

Statistics came up recently. You have at best only the foggiest notion of how "horse-race" polls work, but you declared victory about that, too. Go back ten years or so, and I was explaining the elementary probabilities of playing cards to you, in the context of your claim that you could predict the cards better than chance. (I haven't heard that one in a while, an oldie but goodie).

Then there's the only consistently interesting part of your life, your dreams. You're a frequent lucid dreamer. That's something - many people aspire to dream lucidly. But you don't do anything interesting with that skill (just what's usual in that community: flying and unattainablie-in-real-life sex partners). And it has emerged recently that you plainly don't know when you're asleep and when you're awake (not that anybody is 100% about that), so you sometimes confuse your ordinary (non-lucid) dreams with waking reality.

That will do. The whale story, already posted, does neatly cover the point IMO. Like any one story, however, it cannot do justice to the sheer volume of BS you've served up in a long and distinguished posting career.

Whether you are lying or not doesn't interest me. I could be persuaded. Regardless, you are unreliable. You offer some entertainment and easy target practice ('let's see how many different fallacies we can identify in that Walker post').

Accept your role in the community. And don't look at us - you're the one who's carved out this niche for yourself.

 

see my post above.

I have an excellent memory and once had an eidetic memory BUT, given that  i wrote two posts, one about 30 years after the event, and the other  some 40 years after, it is not surprising i remembered two different things.

Indeed even today both/either remain possible.   If i had wanted to , I could have gone back and checked my original story and told it exactly the  same.

But that wasn't the point, and it wasn't the debate. The argument was, that i made the whole thing up, and lied about it, because ( according to some, no whale  had ever been caught in such a tuna pen)  Only AFTER I was proven correct did the difference in the accounts become a point where i could be criticised   

I didn't even bother proving it  was true.

Habitat took tha t up himself.

I KNEW i was telling the truth and that's all tha t mattered to me  Some posters must have been quite embarrassed by their previous attacks on my character and truthfulness,  and i think some seek to alleviate that embarrassment by making an issue of the two different memories of the event  Right now i couldn't tell you which one (if either)  was correct and no one else could either.

Quite possibly the truth is an amalgam of the two. ie the whale  got out of the pen on its own steam, after the divers jury rigged the pontoons  so that   it could do so  What i saw and the footage at the time was the whale  "breaching"  over the pontoon and escaping. 

ps you are wrong about that  radio 

That radio did not have the abilty to do that and having used it for  many years it never had  

Secondly such a stored charge could not have run the radio for the time it took for the announcement of the approaching bushfire to be read out  A radio capacitor discharges in seconds(  if the radio has one)   This announcement went on for much longer than a few seconds 

You simply dont want, or are unable, to accept what actually  happened  i was told by a voice in my mind to turn the radio on  When i did, an ABC announcer read a bulletin   saying  that the efire front had changed direction and was now approaching our house from  the south  There had been no power for some hours  because the  power lines were all on the ground,  and tha t radio did NOT have a stored charge in its capacitors. Neither did it have any batteries in it  

Your problem, as with my story about the pillar of light,  is that you are compelled to offer "rational"  explanations which simply are not possible or true  for either occasion This doesn't mean there are not natural/ rational explanations, but after many years i haven't been able to find any which fit the facts. 

eg you argue that my hospital visitor must have got back past me without myself or the nurses seeing him.

But that  was  physically impossible, unless he was in stealth mode and invisible.  It didn't happen, yet he disappeared of a small isolated balcony 5 floors above the botanic gardens  Maybe he was tarzan in disguise   

 

Edited October 19, 2020 by Mr Walker

[eight bits]

@Mr Walker

You're not the topic. Take it to Jay's thread or drop it.

You and I are done here.

[+Liquid Gardens]

9 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

So this does not prove that anything i said was untrue, because the truth is not known.

Why am I not surprised that you don't quite understand the law of non-contradiction either.

9 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Gotta spend some time rolling on my carpet   

Yes, that's a good dog.

[Mr Walker]

On 10/18/2020 at 11:54 AM, Dejarma said:

what occurred? = a story occurred, nothing more.. science will not spend time, effort etc on a story

If true tha t would be a failing of science But of course it is NOT true.

Almost every scientific advance and discovery begins with a single person's  experience  observation thought etc. 

[Mr Walker]

17 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Why am I not surprised that you don't quite understand the law of non-contradiction either.

Yes, that's a good dog.

The law of contradiction does not apply here.

First there were two separate memories from 30-40 years ago.

Second, as i explained,  no one knows which( if either) occurred so it is not a defined  either /or case.

Finally,  I think it quite likely that it was a combination of both. Ie i observed the whale get free by jumping over the ring round the pontoon, but it was able to do this because of (unseen to m e) work from divers ( The possible  intervention of divers is  based solely on the story told by the bloke who confirmed that this happened and is thus based on HIS knowledge memory of an event 40 years ago ) No one has been able to find a single media report /description, which might make it any clearer