There was no advanced ancient civilization

[cormac mac airt]

7 minutes ago, Gingitsune said:

Hum... I guess it depends. Ian Logan don't list a mt-haplogroup L, FTDNA's public database don't mention an L either, they name the haplogroup RSRS even though it's under the "L" page. I don't remember even reading about "L" standing along, there's always a digit after. But maybe it's just my memory playing me tricks...

Haplogroup L, specifically, is Mitochondrial Eve, every lineage descends from that. LO and L1-6 splitting from L at about the same time. L0 then becomes ancestral to groups within Africa whereas L1-6 becomes ancestral to both other groups within Africa and those that migrated outside of, and descended from, same. 
 

cormac

Edited March 1, 2021 by cormac mac airt

[cormac mac airt]

Here's what FTDNA says about Haplogroup L0: 

Quote

Haplogroup L0

Haplogroup L0 is believed to have originated in sub-Saharan Africa 140,000 to 150,000 years ago and is the minor of the two branches surviving from maternal Eve. While a fraction of the human species left Africa, your ancestors remained. Migrating throughout the continent for more than 100,000 years, they transformed their lifestyle from Hunter-Gatherers to Agriculturalists 3,000 years ago. Today, around 25% of the Southeast African population belong to haplogroup L0.

The majority line is L1-6. 

As to the loss of long body hair in humans and subsequent change in skin tone: 

circa 1.2 My BP:

with loss of long body hair dark skin evolved in humans

(http://www.xmission.com/~wooding/pdfs/rogers_mc1r04.pdf) cormac

Edited March 1, 2021 by cormac mac airt

[ShadowSot]

These are the sorts of discussions I come here for, sure did miss them. 

[Hanslune]

10 hours ago, Gingitsune said:

The genetic mutations for white skin, either the ones among Europeans, Asians or Amerindians, seem to be not so old, 50,000 years at most. It became more distributed as humans went North and adopted farming (a diet less rich in vitamine D). People like Inuits manage without a Scandinavian white skin as they eat a lot of animals, they get 100% of their vitamine D for their food.

As for why hairless, I would guess Sapiens were passing a lot of time close to water, swimming.

Is that a sideways mention of aquatic ape theory?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquatic_ape_hypothesis

[cormac mac airt]

35 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Is that a sideways mention of aquatic ape theory?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquatic_ape_hypothesis

Wouldn’t matter considering that since humans lost their long hair circa 1.2 million years ago that predates even the Sapiens species. 
 

cormac

[Hanslune]

https://www.zmescience.com/science/archaeology/turkey-unknown-kingdom-04022021/

Archaeologists in Turkey have discovered a major, previously unknown kingdom

One of those pesky mounds - but not old enough...

[Nobu]

On 3/1/2021 at 12:49 AM, cormac mac airt said:

Here's what FTDNA says about Haplogroup L0: 

The majority line is L1-6. 

As to the loss of long body hair in humans and subsequent change in skin tone: 

circa 1.2 My BP:

with loss of long body hair dark skin evolved in humans

(http://www.xmission.com/~wooding/pdfs/rogers_mc1r04.pdf) cormac

Good answers, guys.... 

What sort of genetic pressures would favor the expression of these genes? i.e. Cave dwelling?

Simple non-essential genetic mutations?

Some sort of cascade effect of a genetic change in another gene? Just stuff I think about a lot. Seemed a good thread to post thoughts in.

 

[Harte]

Could have started due to sexual attraction.

Same way breasts and lips got their shapes.

Harte

[cormac mac airt]

17 hours ago, Nobu said:

Good answers, guys.... 

What sort of genetic pressures would favor the expression of these genes? i.e. Cave dwelling? Simple non-essential genetic mutations?

Some sort of cascade effect of a genetic change in another gene? Just stuff I think about a lot. Seemed a good thread to post thoughts in.

 

No, this isn't Bedrock.   Pressures that would have been associated with loss of body hair would have been bipedalism and the need NOT to overheat while walking upright through savannah's and forests, etc., something of which long body hair would have made intolerable. It should also be noted that 1.2 Mya is a MINIMUM for the loss of human body hair and may actually date in excess of 2 million years. In any case it has nothing to do with the advent of Anatomically Modern Humans. 

cormac

[Harte]

In a way, it did.

It opened up more possibilities for sexual cues.

I mean, evolution is pretty much ALL about reproduction, when you think about it.

Even the most fabulously advantageous traits won't enter the gene pool unless they enter the gene pool.

Harte

[jaylemurph]

3 hours ago, Harte said:

Even the most fabulously advantageous traits won't enter the gene pool unless they enter the gene pool.

A lot of fabulous doesn't make it into the gene pool.

Funny, that.

--Jaylemurph

[Abramelin]

Frank Waters, "Book of the Hopi", chapter 3: "Kuskurza: The Third World".

Anyone believing in 'advanced ancient civilizations' will not sleep for days after reading that chapter, heh.

[Kenemet]

2 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Frank Waters, "Book of the Hopi", chapter 3: "Kuskurza: The Third World".

Anyone believing in 'advanced ancient civilizations' will not sleep for days after reading that chapter, heh.

Anthropologists, on the other hand, get a very nice sleep after it.

It was a fairly unique story; I don't recall anything similar in other major mythologies.

 

Note that I'm seeing several versions of this,  Some of them are clearly very recent (particularly the ones that mention "cities")

[Piney]

3 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Frank Waters, "Book of the Hopi", chapter 3: "Kuskurza: The Third World".

Anyone believing in 'advanced ancient civilizations' will not sleep for days after reading that chapter, heh.

Waters made a lot of stuff up. 

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=5233.0

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/did-the-hopi-predict-the-end-of-the-world

[Abramelin]

11 hours ago, Piney said:

Waters made a lot of stuff up. 

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=5233.0

http://www.jasoncolavito.com/blog/did-the-hopi-predict-the-end-of-the-world

I know. It was more like having a bit of fun.

Another critique on a Wiki discussion page:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Hopi_mythology#Frank_Waters'_"Book_of_the_Hopi"_is_not_a_reliable_source

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

22 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Frank Waters, "Book of the Hopi", chapter 3: "Kuskurza: The Third World".

Anyone believing in 'advanced ancient civilizations' will not sleep for days after reading that chapter, heh.

never mind 

Edited March 15, 2021 by Earl.Of.Trumps

[Kenemet]

2 minutes ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

THANKS FOR THE HEADS UP. I just checked. A download is available for "borrowing". So cool. I find the Hopi most fascinating.
A 'friend of a friend' claims that - in speaking with other Indians, he has found that other Indians find the Hopi to be most respectable. Head in the clouds, non-materialistic. 

Plus they have predictions they made based on information they claim was given to them by Aliens. Can't wait to read it.

Uhm... probably not "other Indians find the Hopi to be most respectable."  Each Native American group has its own wisdom and wisdom keepers.  Historically no group looked up to any other one, though they did on occasion look down on other groups and gave them ...unkind... nicknames.

In the second part, he's possibly talking about the Blue Star Kachina prophecy, which is a modern one and dates to the early 1900's when the tribe was divided about whether they should keep their traditional ways or modernize.  This was one of the stories from that discussion.  It's been retold on the Internet in recent years and seems to change with every retelling.  (either that, or he's talking about the five worlds -- the third world tale referenced here is one of those --which most certainly was NOT alien intervention.  The Hopi tend to be rather annoyed over Whites changing stories of their deities and creation into another 'alien' myth.)

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

3 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

Uhm... probably not "other Indians find the Hopi to be most respectable."  Each Native American group has its own wisdom and wisdom keepers.  Historically no group looked up to any other one, though they did on occasion look down on other groups and gave them ...unkind... nicknames.

In the second part, he's possibly talking about the Blue Star Kachina prophecy, which is a modern one and dates to the early 1900's when the tribe was divided about whether they should keep their traditional ways or modernize.  This was one of the stories from that discussion.  It's been retold on the Internet in recent years and seems to change with every retelling.  (either that, or he's talking about the five worlds -- the third world tale referenced here is one of those --which most certainly was NOT alien intervention.  The Hopi tend to be rather annoyed over Whites changing stories of their deities and creation into another 'alien' myth.)

I saw what Abramelin and Piney had to say after Abramelin's earlier post so I decided to get rid of this post. You grabbed it before I got that done. This is no problem!

My friend was surely talking to a limited number of people. I know that is not a reliable methodology but.. lol

Blue Star Kachina sounds very familiar. Yes. The 5 worlds and we are in the 4th world now, as I understood it.,, soon to end with our final destruction.
Never said it was an Alien intervention, I said they learned about it all from the Aliens. I'd still like to read up on them and their beliefs. 
We'll see what @Piney has on the Hopi.

[Piney]

1 hour ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

I saw what Abramelin and Piney had to say after Abramelin's earlier post so I decided to get rid of this post. You grabbed it before I got that done. This is no problem!

We'll see what @Piney has on the Hopi.

I posted a link from Dr. Al Carrol, a Apache who calls out fraud. @Kenemet pretty much said what I would of.

Here's the link again. 

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=5233.0

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

4 hours ago, Piney said:

I posted a link from Dr. Al Carrol, a Apache who calls out fraud. @Kenemet pretty much said what I would of.

Here's the link again. 

http://www.newagefraud.org/smf/index.php?topic=5233.0

That's a good read, Piney, thanks. 

[Kenemet]

8 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

Never said it was an Alien intervention, I said they learned about it all from the Aliens. 

Ohboy.  Them's fighting words if you say it in front of any Native American knowledge keeper.

It is seriously offensive, as @Piney can confirm...in fact, it would be seriously offensive to any Abroiginal or any other native culture.  It echoes colonialism, where anyone who doesn't have a full set of ancestors from Europe is too backward and stupid to invent spirituality or anything else.

They did not "learn" anything from aliens.  Trust me on this one.

[Piney]

3 hours ago, Kenemet said:

They did not "learn" anything from aliens.  Trust me on this one.

Me um haff to fix Great White Anthro Woman's words. Grey Sky People teach we um to beat rocks and make sharp.

They um used bum stick to um teach rock beating to we Red People. Made um many Red People um's bum sore. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Piney
**** Atlantis

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

3 hours ago, Kenemet said:

Ohboy.  Them's fighting words if you say it in front of any Native American knowledge keeper.

Hmm, I would have guessed that they would be happy to host knowledge no other human can get. Zure

3 hours ago, Kenemet said:

It is seriously offensive, as @Piney can confirm...in fact, it would be seriously offensive to any Abroiginal or any other native culture.  It echoes colonialism, where anyone who doesn't have a full set of ancestors from Europe is too backward and stupid to invent spirituality or anything else.

They did not "learn" anything from aliens.  Trust me on this one.

Surely.

@Piney was here earlier.  He must have missed it

[Piney]

2 hours ago, Earl.Of.Trumps said:

@Piney was here earlier.  He must have missed it

I did. 

[jaylemurph]

They tell me that when They looked in on the First Nations folks, they seemed to be doing perfectly well and didn’t need any divine intervention. 

Now, those half-wit Egyptians, though...

—Jaylemurph