There was no advanced ancient civilization

[Thanos5150]

10 hours ago, Hanslune said:

The oldest known stone tools are 3.3 million years old.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-32804177

 

Monkey 'tools' raise questions over human archaeological record.

Quote

 

In January, archaeologist Tomos Proffitt was examining a set of stone artefacts brought to him by his colleague Michael Haslam. Some of the quartz pieces looked like sharpened stone tools made by human relatives in eastern Africa, some 2–3 million years ago.

But Haslam told Proffitt that the artefacts had been made in the previous two years by capuchin monkeys in Brazil. “I was pretty gobsmacked,” Proffitt says. “I did my PhD looking at hominin stone tools. I’ve learnt how to make these things. I was looking at this material, and it looked like it had been made by humans.”....

About half of the flakes made by the capuchins bore the hallmarks of Oldowan tools called choppers, says Proffitt. One set of flakes seemed to have been broken off of the same hammer stone in succession, “something that’s only ever been associated with humans”, says Proffit. Yet he emphasizes that the monkeys make the fragments unintentionally and “at no point do they use these flakes. They’re just hitting stones together”.

 

Chimps Learned Tool Use Long Ago Without Human Help.

Quote

 

The handheld hammers were found at a chimpanzee settlement in the Ivory Coast and date back 4,300 years. Chimpanzees have been observed using similar tools for the past few centuries, but scientists assumed the intelligent apes were simply copying local people cutting open fruit nearby....

Though there were no chimpanzee remains at the settlement, testing by archaeologists revealed the tool-laden camp was most likely used by the Great Ape. The stones were much bigger than anything a human could use comfortably and bore the residue of nuts that modern chimpanzees like to snack on.

 

 

[Oniomancer]

10 hours ago, Hanslune said:

The problem is certain things you cannot recycle like the hole left when you mine something (rocks or metal) if you do anything to put more chemicals - from burning, construction, farming domestication, etc these can be found in sedimentation and in large doses in ice cores (we have detected the residue of Roman lead smelting in Greenland ice cores.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/05/rise-and-fall-roman-empire-exposed-greenland-ice-samples

https://www.jstor.org/stable/529452?seq=1

Any modification of ground is often retained for millions of years this includes fire pits, driving a stake into ground, arranging rocks for a foundation, making stone tools (they last millions of years), etc.

The oldest known stone tools are 3.3 million years old.

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-32804177

As I was pointing out elsewhere, we've got all these pre-clovis, clovis and post-clovis sites intact all over the continent but nary a trace of anything more advanced anywhere. Same for the other continents. Was this ancient civilization the opposite of thalassophobes? And  what about all those prehistoric glacial lakes? Seems like dandy shorefront property.

How do we even know how much of the continental shelf would've been habitable? Ask Piney about the south Jersey coast.

[Thanos5150]

On 11/23/2020 at 2:02 PM, Hanslune said:

That has been modified. More recently, thermoluminescence dating of heated flints in a deposit beneath that which contained the spears suggested that the spears were between 337,000 and 300,000 years old

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schöningen_spears

The age of the Lower Paleolithic occupation at Schoningen

Quote

Thermoluminescence (TL) data are presented for eight samples of heated flint collected at the archaeological site of Schöningen 13/I-1 (Cycle I), for which a Holsteinian age is suggested by palynology of stratigraphically similar positions within a cyclic sedimentological model for the Quaternary sequence of Schöningen. Although the fire responsible for the zeroing of the TL-signal cannot be unequivocally attributed to human activities, any time difference between a natural fire and the human occupation is negligible for a site of this antiquity. The weighted mean age of 321 ± 16 ka places the last heating of the flints nominally in the age range of Marine Isotope Stages (MIS) 10 to 8. By inference this data would suggest an attribution of the Holsteinian to MIS 9 and may also serve as a maximum age estimate for the spear site of Schöningen 13/II-4 (Cycle II). Considering the chronometric data available and following an alternative sedimentological model the age of these two sites at Schöningen can be considered as belonging to the same climatic cycle. This suggests an attribution to MIS 9, and by inference provides an age estimate of 337-300 ka for the oldest spears in human history.

On the evidence for human use and control of fire at Schöningen

Quote

Many researchers view purported hearths, burnt wooden implements, and heated flints from Schöningen as providing the best evidence for the control of fire in the Lower Paleolithic of Northern Europe. Here we present results of a multianalytical study of the purported hearths along with a critical examination of other possible evidence of human use or control of fire at Schöningen. We conclude that the analyzed features and artifacts present no convincing evidence for human use or control of fire.

From the Wikipedia link:

Quote

Archaeologists at the University of Tübingen have questioned some of the initial interpretations of the site.[17] Isotope analysis and wear patterns on the horses' teeth show a wide variety of habitat and diet amongst the animals, indicating that the faunal assemblage accumulated in many small events, rather than one large slaughter. Sediment analysis shows that the red colour previously thought to be a result of hearths and burning are actually iron compounds forming as the lake levels dropped in recent times. Lake algae, sponges, and small crustaceans found in the sediments show that the spears were never on dry land and that the deposit has always been submerged. These data suggest that instead of representing a big hunting event, the spears suggest less social complexity than originally suggested. They also suggest that the horses were hunted in shallow water rather than at the lake edge.

 

[Hanslune]

9 hours ago, RoofGardener said:

Pfffft.. doesn't even have central heating. 

In Egypt that's not usually needed* however central air IS

 

* it can get chilly in Egypt down into the 50's and it even occasionally snows. Generally it is warm, very warm.

Quote

Egypt's capital Cairo witnessed extremely rare snowfall (mostly graupel) on Friday December 13, 2013 that the local media claimed to be the first in 112 years and night temperature was expected to drop as low as 2 °C (36 °F). Snow also fell heavily on Sinai mountains

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContentP/1/89025/Egypt/Winter-brings-snow-to-Cairo.aspx

[Geomy]

On 10/15/2020 at 10:21 AM, jethrofloyd said:

That is simply not possible. But some rare and sudden flashes of the human mind and technological developments have happened in the past.

 

Baghdad Battery

 

 

The Antikythera mechanism

 

What is this thing made of?

A word on aliens. There can be no such thing as some imagine. What would be their purpose designing us?

Well, to continue living as themselves right, to recreate their own everything , in their image, in an effort to continue living as themselves.

 Therefore,  we ARE them and they ARE us.

We are the aliens that created us. Ain't that something?

 

If they came here and populated this perfectly adapted to us planet, there would be evidence of... hang on.. there is, us. And we would continue to see it happening. Right.

 Another thing. Extended space travel to other worlds, if ever possible, is a waste of time. By whatever means we got here, and we are here, we would already be on other worlds.

 Looking at Earth some 20 billion years from now, wondering if there is life here.

 Kinda lonely isnt it?

 Make the most of our beautiful world. That's why we here.

[DaveAzi]

On 10/15/2020 at 9:09 AM, janesix said:

I have read much of Graham Hancock and the like, and was convinced there had to have been advanced civilizations before us. 

But over the last year or so, I've come to realize this probably isn't true. 

There is simply no evidence for it.

We find the remains of hunter/gatherers back through time, but zero evidence of an advanced culture. Sadly, the time has come for me to give up on this idea. And figure out WHY we have only just recently been able to advance.

Graham Hancock has made million$ by selling book sand being on TV.

[Hanslune]

10 minutes ago, DaveAzi said:

Graham Hancock has made million$ by selling book sand being on TV.

Which is why he keeps putting out books and moving where the 'invisible civilization' is he started with Antarctica and in his last had it in North America....I kinda wonder where he will stick it next. I vote for Greenland or the old 'molemen dodge'...or did he already do that one before? Underworld?

[Hyperionxvii]

On 1/29/2021 at 6:07 PM, Hanslune said:

Which is why he keeps putting out books and moving where the 'invisible civilization' is he started with Antarctica and in his last had it in North America....I kinda wonder where he will stick it next. I vote for Greenland or the old 'molemen dodge'...or did he already do that one before? Underworld?

There is definitely a lot of money in getting people to believe in what they apparently want to believe in. 

When I was a youngster, not even a tween yet, Von Daniken really got the best of me. I had every book he ever wrote. I was hooked. Or as I would later come to know it, 'bamboozled', 'hornswaggled', taken for a ride, played for a fool. I took it really hard, I mean I was just a kid. So is it good to be a skeptic? You're darn right it is. Having an open mind is one thing. Being naive when the evidence is screaming at you that something is not right, is another thing. 

[Hyperionxvii]

So, what happened with me and my obsession with Von Daniken, is that I read his books, but I'd read everything I could get my hands on about science anything, all fields, archeology included. 

One day I read an article claiming that Von Daniken had hired some local artisans in Peru to paint on pottery and claim it was from ancient sites, including pottery with pictures that looked to portray what appeared to be dinosaurs.

At first I was angry, who is this person claiming that the great Von Daniken would do such a thing? So I persisted and eventually had to admit, that not only would he do such a thing, but that he did. So, that day, the chariots of the gods came crashing down. I know it sounds silly, but I was devastated over that.

I eventually got over it. I mean I still believe in faeries and hobgoblins and all that, I was some out back list night, I think, but this ancient astronaut stuff is all just so much phooey! 

 

 

[Hanslune]

3 hours ago, Hyperionxvii said:

So, what happened with me and my obsession with Von Daniken, is that I read his books, but I'd read everything I could get my hands on about science anything, all fields, archeology included. 

One day I read an article claiming that Von Daniken had hired some local artisans in Peru to paint on pottery and claim it was from ancient sites, including pottery with pictures that looked to portray what appeared to be dinosaurs.

At first I was angry, who is this person claiming that the great Von Daniken would do such a thing? So I persisted and eventually had to admit, that not only would he do such a thing, but that he did. So, that day, the chariots of the gods came crashing down. I know it sounds silly, but I was devastated over that.

I eventually got over it. I mean I still believe in faeries and hobgoblins and all that, I was some out back list night, I think, but this ancient astronaut stuff is all just so much phooey! 

 

 

I believe you may be referring too the Ica stone which were carved not painted

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ica_stones

 

Quote

""In 1973, during an interview with Erich von Däniken, Uschuya stated he had faked the stones that he had sold. In 1975 Uschuya and another farmer named Irma Gutierrez de Aparcana confirmed that they had forged the stones they gave to Cabrera by copying the images from comic books, text books and magazines.Later, Uschuya recanted the forging story during an interview with a German journalist, saying that he had claimed they were a hoax to avoid imprisonment for selling archaeological artifacts.

In 1977, during the BBC documentary Pathway to the Gods, Uschuya produced an Ica stone with a dentist's drill and claimed to have produced a fake patina by baking the stone in cow dung. That same year, another BBC documentary was released with a skeptical analysis of Cabrera's stones, and the new-found attention to the phenomenon prompted Peruvian authorities to arrest Uschuya, as Peruvian law prohibits the sale of archaeological discoveries. Uschuya recanted his claim that he had found them and instead admitted they were hoaxes, saying "Making these stones is easier than farming the land." He engraved the stones using images in books and magazines as examples and knives, chisels and a dental drill. He also said that he had not made all the stones. He was not punished, and continued to sell similar stones to tourists as trinkets. The stones continued to be made and carved by other artists as forgeries of the original forgeries""

...or are you referring to something else that my spongy brain is forgetting?

 

 

[Hyperionxvii]

2 hours ago, Hanslune said:

I believe you may be referring too the Ica stone which were carved not painted

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ica_stones

...or are you referring to something else that my spongy brain is forgetting?

 

Yep, that was it.

[Windowpane]

7 hours ago, Hyperionxvii said:

One day I read an article claiming that Von Daniken had hired some local artisans in Peru to paint on pottery and claim it was from ancient sites, including pottery with pictures that looked to portray what appeared to be dinosaurs.

 

These were probably the Ica stones - von Daniken is mentioned about half-way through the Wiki.

[Abramelin]

Javier Cabrera

In 1991 I met Javier Cabrera in his little museum in Ica.

The guy was formally dressed in something militairy, when I met him.

I said hello, and asked him if it was oké to wander around in his museum.

It was oké, and I started wandering...

I noticed there were many engraved stones not showing up in the books by Charroux and Von Däniken, and started studying them from up very close.

Apparently Cabrera noticed that, and asked me after my profession. Well, at the time I had been a lab assistent or chemical analyst in a Kodak laboratory here in the Netherlands for 10 years. I told him, and he fell silent.

At the end of my tour through the museum I asked him if I could make a photo of him. "Of course" he said, and I took the picture. Afterwards I discovered the picture had failed. Sigh.

When I was about to leave he asked me if I was willing to buy his book about the stones. And of course I said yes, although I was convinced either he, and/or those he got the stones from, were 100% frauds.

He signed a copy of his book, I paid, said something like Hasta la vista, shook his hand, and left.

I have made a copy of the page he signed on (and where he had also added a nice remark to me), and if anyone likes to see it, I will try to find it and post it.

[Abramelin]

Oké, here's the photo of the signed page:

(see below: posting pics on this site using a phone is a pain)

Oh, and here a photo of a potter I made when I visited his pottery shop a day later. He was proud, very proud of his Incan heritage, and created pottery in the Incan style. At some point I told this guy I had visited Cabrera the day before. And after what I said, he almost exploded, he was fuming, and yelled at me that Cabrera was an idiot who had been had by his fellow country men who just wanted to earn a bit of money. I thought I'd better buy something from this guy before things got bad, and so I did.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Abramelin

[Ell]

A high technology / sophisticated science hunter / gatherer species would leave almost no technological remains. I do not expect our homo species to have had such a civilization, but the Denisovans' might have been one.

Edited February 12, 2021 by Ell
grammar correction

[Tatetopa]

3 hours ago, Ell said:

A high technology / sophisticated science hunter / gatherer species would leave almost no technological remains. I do not expect our homo species to have had such a civilization, but the Denisovans' might have been one.

I believe you will find Denisovan  genetic material in both Neanderthal and Home Sapiens DNA.

 

On 2/2/2021 at 5:52 PM, Hyperionxvii said:

When I was a youngster, not even a tween yet, Von Daniken really got the best of me.

Me too.  I had an uncle who had George Adamski books as well.

My prosaic and unscholarly  theory about our affliction as teens and pre-teens has to do with the human condition.

Many of us reach an age at which we are aware of our parents foibles and short comings  and do not want to grow up like them.  In fact, some of us can't even understand how we could be related to these people.  We want to be the children of rich people who had to leave us for some mysterious reason but love us and will come back to give us our rightful heritage, or maybe it is  fairies, or aliens. that are our true parents.

When we grow a little older, we expand that incomprehension from our parents to the whole human race.  We must be related to something better right?  It could be benevolent aliens or an ancient civilization, anything to lift us out of the mundane day to day reality. of being human.  Some people grow up questioning and use logic as a guide for inquiry. Maybe for some it is too disappointing to ever let go of  even the most illogical possibilities.

The mundane can turn out to be pretty wonderful, mysterious a lot more complex and full of potential than we realized at 13.  

 

[jaylemurph]

9 hours ago, Ell said:

A high technology / sophisticated science hunter / gatherer species would leave almost no technological remains. I do not expect our homo species to have had such a civilization, but the Denisovans' might have been one.

Well, we wouldn't know for sure, as one has never existed to measure its remains, but nothing about our own technology seems to support such a statement.

--Jaylemurph

[ShadowSot]

2 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

Well, we wouldn't know for sure, as one has never existed to measure its remains, but nothing about our own technology seems to support such a statement.

--Jaylemurph

Well, what if they could fly? You can't prove they didn't! 

[Harte]

They were an elephant civilization.

The kind of elephant that doesn't leave a footprint.

I saw an old documentary about elephants flying.

Harte

[jaylemurph]

21 minutes ago, Harte said:

They were an elephant civilization.

The kind of elephant that doesn't leave a footprint.

I saw an old documentary about elephants flying.

Harte

Umbrellas don’t even begin to offer protection from the results of flying elephants. 

—Jaylemurph 

[qxcontinuum]

On 10/15/2020 at 12:42 PM, papageorge1 said:

There aren't many mummies to go on. And mysterious ones like some I've head of from South America suggesting advanced non-human humanoid-alien like species get tangled in controversy.

If you're referring to the missing links I'd call them failed experiments. The monkey has not just become man without some help...

[Trelane]

9 minutes ago, qxcontinuum said:

If you're referring to the missing links I'd call them failed experiments. The monkey has not just become man without some help...

While others, including those who've investigated those claims call them hoaxes.

 

[papageorge1]

46 minutes ago, qxcontinuum said:

If you're referring to the missing links I'd call them failed experiments. The monkey has not just become man without some help...

Here is the latest on the mummies I was referring to. It appears to me that we indeed have something real and unknown to science.

Nazca Mummy Update

Key excerpt: 

Our initially published footage of the mummies spurred controversy online and within the scientific community, encouraging a deeper investigation. Now, after seeking a multitude of independent scientists and universities to analyze these bodies, we’ve come to believe they are unlike anything ever cataloged in the fossil records.

[cormac mac airt]

1 hour ago, qxcontinuum said:

If you're referring to the missing links I'd call them failed experiments. The monkey has not just become man without some help...

No crap Sherlock since monkeys NEVER became human to begin with. 

cormac

[jmccr8]

51 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Here is the latest on the mummies I was referring to. It appears to me that we indeed have something real and unknown to science.

Nazca Mummy Update

Key excerpt: 

Our initially published footage of the mummies spurred controversy online and within the scientific community, encouraging a deeper investigation. Now, after seeking a multitude of independent scientists and universities to analyze these bodies, we’ve come to believe they are unlike anything ever cataloged in the fossil records.

Hi Papa

You have posted this many times in many threads and have had some very critical response from this and I would advise to not pursue this again nor do I need you to justify in a response to me on this matter.

jmccr8