Atlantis Explained!

[Hanslune]

25 minutes ago, Swede said:

Not to mention the distinct lack of orichalcum in the Florida archaeological record (!).

.

Heck that stuff? You can get a bucket of it at the local DQ (Dairy Queen fast food restaurant).

Hmmm, fired orichalcum with chili and a side of tater tots. Ask Harte he'll tellya.

Edited October 19, 2020 by Hanslune

[Trelane]

22 hours ago, Rojack said:

You seem to want me to provide enough  archaeological material to prove my theory. That is not going to happen. This is only a theory up for discussion.

No, I wouldn't presume you to do that. Your theory centers around the fact that you are trying to prove a fictional place is real.

Edited October 19, 2020 by Trelane

[Hanslune]

29 minutes ago, Trelane said:

No, I wouldn't presume you to do that. Your theory centers around the fact that you are trying to prove a fictional place is real.

People who believe that ancient civilizations had advance technology, were helped by aliens, were assisted by Atlantis, etc all don't want to talk about that pesky evidence of or lack therein of archaeological proof.

I remember a fellow he painstakingly 'discovered and proved' that Atlantis was really located in South America in-between the Uruguay and Paraguay rivers. He flatly refuse to discuss or consider the fact no ruins or archaeological evidence of any kind (except for Native Americas) was present, his phasing sticks to me still in tone (paraphrased), 'I have proved it using logic and what Plato said once i corrected his mistakes why would I care if you cannot find archaeological evidence?

 

Gotta love it

[jaylemurph]

1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

People who believe that ancient civilizations had advance technology, were helped by aliens, were assisted by Atlantis, etc all don't want to talk about that pesky evidence of or lack therein of archaeological proof.

I remember a fellow he painstakingly 'discovered and proved' that Atlantis was really located in South America in-between the Uruguay and Paraguay rivers. He flatly refuse to discuss or consider the fact no ruins or archaeological evidence of any kind (except for Native Americas) was present, his phasing sticks to me still in tone (paraphrased), 'I have proved it using logic and what Plato said once i corrected his mistakes why would I care if you cannot find archaeological evidence?

 

Gotta love it

Dude opened a Sitchin thread. He’s beyond reason.

—Jaylemurph 

[jethrofloyd]

Atlantis is nothing more than Plato's early version of Jules Verne's The Mysterious Island novel. Both are nice science-fiction works.

[Hanslune]

6 hours ago, jethrofloyd said:

Atlantis is nothing more than Plato's early version of Jules Verne's The Mysterious Island novel. Both are nice science-fiction works.

JVMI was far better Plato's version lol

[atalante]

On 10/18/2020 at 7:10 PM, Hanslune said:

Yes they do with great fervent fear and caginess. Without the Gods in it Atlantis doesn't exist.

Atalante how do you deal with the non-existence Greek Gods in your Atlantis ideas?

 

The storyline in Plato's Critias dialogue is an adaptation (and expansion) of the Hesiodic "Catalogue of Women" - but Plato's dialogue is told by a Critias character who acts as a rhapsode, while adding some narration about (Atlantean) times BEFORE mythical Deucalion.

 

This Hesiodic framework for Plato's Critias dialogue is summarized in the "Conclusions" section (pages 217-218) of the following essay by Andrea Capra, which is titled "Plato's Hesiod and the Will of Zeus".

https://www.academia.edu/6870504/Plato_s_Hesiod_and_the_Will_of_Zeus_Philosophical_Rhapsody_in_the_Timaeus_and_the_Critias

 

Manuscripts of the Catalogue of Women were popular up to Roman times, but were not recopied in Medieval times.  Only about a third of the the material in the Catalogue of Women has survived in fragments.  Fragments from this Catalogue have been found in more than 50 different ancient manuscripts.

 

Some women in the Catalogue of Women had mated with Greek gods.  Thus it is not surprising that Plato's Critias character says a human woman (Cleito) mated with Poseidon to start the tribes of Atlantis.

 

Solon (in Tim 21e-22a) started his conversation with an Egyptian priest by covering genealogical material similar to the Catalogue of Women (i,e Solon talked about the Greek descendents of Pyrrha and Deucalion).  Moreover, the "ending" of the Critias dialogue (where Zeus is discussing Zeus's "will" to an assembly of the Greek gods) resembles what is still known about the ending of the Catalogue of Women.   Plato himself believed that some cyclic destructions of humanity had occurred in the past.

 

 

 

Wikipedia has tabulated the era that was discussed in the Catalogue of Women :  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalogue_of_Women

Relations between the progenitors of Greek tribes that are discussed in the Catalogue of Women are as follows:

Deucalion   Pyrrha   Zeus[32]                                                                               (stones)                                                                                                                                                                     Hellen (hellenes)                 Thyia       Pandora   Protogeneia   leleges                                                                                                                                   Dorus (dorians)           Xuthus     Aeolus (aeolians)   Magnes (magnetes)   Macedon (macedones)   Graecus (graeci)   Aethlius                                                                                             Aegimius       Achaeus (achaeans)   Ion (ionians)                                 Endymion                                                                                       Dymas (dymanes)   Pamphylus (pamphyli)                                                 Aetolus (aetolians)

The genealogical relation between Greek tribes within the family of Deucalion in the Catalogue[33]

 

 

[Hanslune]

8 minutes ago, atalante said:

 

The storyline ......deleted

 

 

Nice, but you didn't answer the question: here it is again: Atalante how do you deal with the non-existence Greek Gods in your Atlantis ideas?

How does having nonexistance god being treated as real effect the believablity of Plato's story?

Edited October 20, 2020 by Hanslune

[Abramelin]

13 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Nice, but you didn't answer the question: here it is again: Atalante how do you deal with the non-existence Greek Gods in your Atlantis ideas?

How does having nonexistance god being treated as real effect the believablity of Plato's story?

When someone says that the Corona virus pandemic was an act of God, does that then mean there was no pandemic?

[Hanslune]

1 minute ago, Abramelin said:

When someone says that the Corona virus pandemic was an act of God, does that then mean there was no pandemic?

There is a pandemic of course, we know that. The question is does having fake Gods doing thing in a story - that some believe is real -add or detract from it believably. I had wondered how the hard core Atlantis believers handle that crunchy piece of detail in the story.

[Abramelin]

Back then they fabricated gods to explain things they did not understand. Well, people still do, but with only one angry god

I think most Atlantis believers know that, and so have no problems with it.

 

[Hanslune]

2 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Back then they fabricated gods to explain things they did not understand. Well, people still do, but with only one angry god

I think most Atlantis believers know that, and so have no problems with it.

 

Yes I agree whole heartily and it points to their (Plato etc.) believing thing that where wholly wrong and impossible, that is if the story was real, if not he was just using customary wording common to the time.

[atalante]

2 hours ago, Hanslune said:

Nice, but you didn't answer the question: here it is again: Atalante how do you deal with the non-existence Greek Gods in your Atlantis ideas?

How does having nonexistance god being treated as real effect the believablity of Plato's story?

Early readers of the Critias dialogue were expected to recognize that the Critias character has (in effect) Euhemerized the deity Atlas-the-Titan, converting the deity into a human "warlord-Atlas".    

Perhaps that bothers modern atheists more than it did Plato's original audience.  

In the opening part of the Timaeus dialogue, Plato indicated that:  1) a 4th person was missing from the Atlantis dinner party (i.e. the historian Thucydides was missing, a writer who minimized the power of gods to act in past human events) - and 2) that Critias needed to carry on in the Atlantis dialogues as the missing 4th person would have done.  

[Hanslune]

3 hours ago, atalante said:

Early readers of the Critias dialogue were expected to recognize that the Critias character has (in effect) Euhemerized the deity Atlas-the-Titan, converting the deity into a human "warlord-Atlas".    

Perhaps that bothers modern atheists more than it did Plato's original audience.  

In the opening part of the Timaeus dialogue, Plato indicated that:  1) a 4th person was missing from the Atlantis dinner party (i.e. the historian Thucydides was missing, a writer who minimized the power of gods to act in past human events) - and 2) that Critias needed to carry on in the Atlantis dialogues as the missing 4th person would have done.  

I'll take that as meaning you consider that Plato in writing his story followed custom and invoked gods and that fake part of story doesn't cause you any doubts about the reality of the story? Is that what you meant to say or something else?

[docyabut2]

https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/2500-year-old-city-buried-under-flood-sediment-may-belong-lost-civilization-020521

I believe this 2,500-year-old city buried under flood sediment may belong to lost civilization in Spain was Atlantis

gee look at the rings

[atalante]

15 hours ago, Hanslune said:

I'll take that as meaning you consider that Plato in writing his story followed custom and invoked gods and that fake part of story doesn't cause you any doubts about the reality of the story? Is that what you meant to say or something else?

Yes, Plato was following a custom of his era, about invoking various gods.  

 

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

1 hour ago, atalante said:

Yes, Plato was following a custom of his era, about invoking various gods.  

 

If one part of the story isn't true, in this case the gods, surely the rest of the story should be treated with caution. So how do you evaluate which parts are true and which part are just "custom of his era" ?

[docyabut2]

6 hours ago, atalante said:

Yes, Plato was following a custom of his era, about invoking various gods.  

 

You are so right about the Plato `s era,  but the  2,500-year-old city buried under flood sediment may belong to lost civilization in Spain was Atlantis around 450bc

Atlantis written by Plato 360 bc

[Abramelin]

2 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

You are so right about the Plato `s era,  but the  2,500-year-old city buried under flood sediment may belong to lost civilization in Spain was Atlantis around 450bc

Atlantis written by Plato 360 bc

So Atlantis went down 90 years before Plato, instead of 9000 years?

[docyabut2]

1 minute ago, Abramelin said:

So Atlantis went down 90 years before Plato, instead of 9000 years?

yes:)

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

2 hours ago, Abramelin said:

So Atlantis went down 90 years before Plato, instead of 9000 years?

I was about to ask her the same question, but then I remembered that reasoning with her is like a broken pencil... pointless.

[Kenemet]

On 10/18/2020 at 8:41 PM, Hanslune said:

There you go using rationality again. If you look at Florida and extend a line from it eastward it intersects Morocco which has the Atlas mountains and, er, ah, isn't that close enough! I mean that's just a short 7,000 kilometers away...close?

It flounced there.  

So it is written, so let it be done.

[Rojack]

Since “Atlantis” has been classified as a myth, most educated and many not so educated people accept the  myth classification as a fact of life. If you are college educated and believe Atlantis is based a true story, reply to this forum with a brief explanation of why you believe.

[atalante]

On 10/21/2020 at 9:48 AM, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

If one part of the story isn't true, in this case the gods, surely the rest of the story should be treated with caution. So how do you evaluate which parts are true and which part are just "custom of his era" ?

The key "truth" about the Timaeus dialogue is presented at the very beginning of the Timaeus dialogue (Tim 17a-20c).  i.e. Socrates claims (in a somewhat cryptic way) that he has presented a partial-sequel to the Republic dialogue on the previous day - but tied to a specific pre-condition that the attendees of the Atlantis dinner party must pay Socrates back now, by explaining how experienced political and military leaders (such as the attendees of this dinner party) would conduct a just war for Socrates's ideal state. 

 

Another important "truth" is that, among the three attendees at this Atlantis dinner party, Hermocrates is only attendee whose human counterpart (Hermocrates of Syracuse) was an experienced military commander.  Moreover, at the current endpoint of the Critias dialogue (where readers are told that the Atlanteans will soon be "chastised"), the Atlantean war has still not been described in tactical detail.  Therefore Socrates has still not received the "payback" that he requested in Tim 17a-20c.  And the Hermocrates character is the only attendee of the Atlantis dinner party with an expert skill set for conducting warfare.  Readers of the Tim-Crit dialogues have been informed (in Crit 108c) that Hermocrates will continue the discussion after Critias has finished speaking.

 

Many or most of the remaining details in the Atlantis theme depend on understanding the customs of Solon's era, and Critias's era and Plato's era.

 

According to Proclus's commentary on the Timaeus dialogue, the first Platonic writers who explained the Atlantis theme as an allegory were Numenius, Origen and Porphyry - who all lived after the end of Hellenistic Greek rule of Egypt. 

 

 

[jaylemurph]

4 hours ago, Rojack said:

Since “Atlantis” has been classified as a myth, most educated and many not so educated people accept the  myth classification as a fact of life. If you are college educated and believe Atlantis is based a true story, reply to this forum with a brief explanation of why you believe.

You seem to not quite grasp how fora work. You opened the thread; if you have something to share, share it. If not, stay quiet. 

Nobody comes here to be ordered about by you and you’ve already seen that the majority here would rather beat their head against a wall than go through the “there’s no evidence” spiel for the 47,391rst time. At the very least, learn to use the search function to see what people have posted before. 

—Jaylemurph