Atlantis Explained!

[jaylemurph]

16 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

 Atalante would probably know.

...that's, umm, optimistic.

--Jaylemurph

[Hanslune]

24 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

...that's, umm, optimistic.

--Jaylemurph

[atalante]

On 10/29/2020 at 8:23 AM, Wepwawet said:

Er, how can anybody have physical evidence to prove that something does not exist ? I presume that you are aware that you cannot prove a negative, and the onus is on those who say something exists to provide proof of their claims.

Wepwawet's post #228 post (above) includes an interesting comment about negative-proofs, vs a burden of proof that belongs on people who claim something exists.  My post here is directed to modern people who claim Plato's Atlantis theme was originally intended to be an "allegory". 

 

 

It is somewhat easy to show that Plato (Critias) said repeatedly that his Atlantis theme is a "logos".  i.e. Tim 20d says twice, in the Greek version, that his Atlantis theme is a "logos"; and Tim 21a follows up with another instance where Plato's Greek description is "logos".

 

(For the era near Plato and his dialogue character Critias-the-Tyrant -- the writings of Herodotus provide us with the most probable way to explain what Critias meant by saying that the Atlantis theme was conceived as a "logos".  In Herodotus's book Histories, each chapter unit was called a "logos".    https://www.livius.org/sources/about/herodotus/herodotos-bk-1-logos-1/ )

 

 

 

Now shifting to the burden-of-proof comment in Wepwawet's post #228 -- but applying it to modern people who claim that writing an "allegory" (but not a "logos") was Plato's real intention for his Atlantis theme:  Modern "allegory" people should bear their own burden-of-proof to ACTUALLY CITE Stephanus pagination for a passage where Plato used a Greek word that is cognate with "allegory" to describe Plato's Atlantis theme.   

 

I have not found any writers in the century immediately after Plato that claimed Plato intended his Atlantis theme to be primarily some vague "allegory".  IIRC none of Plato's early disciples wrote ANY commentary about ANY Plato dialogue, until Crantor (ca 275 BC) wrote some commentaries on Plato's dialogues.  Therefore my impression is that neither Plato nor his early disciples regarded the Atlantis theme as primarily some vague "allegory".

 

 

 

[Rojack]

32 minutes ago, atalante said:

Wepwawet's post #228 post (above) includes an interesting comment about negative-proofs, vs a burden of proof that belongs on people who claim something exists.  My post here is directed to modern people who claim Plato's Atlantis theme was originally intended to be an "allegory". 

 

 

It is somewhat easy to show that Plato (Critias) said repeatedly that his Atlantis theme is a "logos".  i.e. Tim 20d says twice, in the Greek version, that his Atlantis theme is a "logos"; and Tim 21a follows up with another instance where Plato's Greek description is "logos".

 

(For the era near Plato and his dialogue character Critias-the-Tyrant -- the writings of Herodotus provide us with the most probable way to explain what Critias meant by saying that the Atlantis theme was conceived as a "logos".  In Herodotus's book Histories, each chapter unit was called a "logos".    https://www.livius.org/sources/about/herodotus/herodotos-bk-1-logos-1/ )

 

 

 

Now shifting to the burden-of-proof comment in Wepwawet's post #228 -- but applying it to modern people who claim that writing an "allegory" (but not a "logos") was Plato's real intention for his Atlantis theme:  Modern "allegory" people should bear their own burden-of-proof to ACTUALLY CITE Stephanus pagination for a passage where Plato used a Greek word that is cognate with "allegory" to describe Plato's Atlantis theme.   

 

I have not found any writers in the century immediately after Plato that claimed Plato intended his Atlantis theme to be primarily some vague "allegory".  IIRC none of Plato's early disciples wrote ANY commentary about ANY Plato dialogue, until Crantor (ca 275 BC) wrote some commentaries on Plato's dialogues.  Therefore my impression is that neither Plato nor his early disciples regarded the Atlantis theme as primarily some vague "allegory".

 

 

 

Thanks for clearing that up. I feel a lot better about using Plato's quotes.

[Wepwawet]

48 minutes ago, atalante said:

Wepwawet's post #228 post (above) includes an interesting comment about negative-proofs, vs a burden of proof that belongs on people who claim something exists.  My post here is directed to modern people who claim Plato's Atlantis theme was originally intended to be an "allegory". 

 

 

It is somewhat easy to show that Plato (Critias) said repeatedly that his Atlantis theme is a "logos".  i.e. Tim 20d says twice, in the Greek version, that his Atlantis theme is a "logos"; and Tim 21a follows up with another instance where Plato's Greek description is "logos".

 

(For the era near Plato and his dialogue character Critias-the-Tyrant -- the writings of Herodotus provide us with the most probable way to explain what Critias meant by saying that the Atlantis theme was conceived as a "logos".  In Herodotus's book Histories, each chapter unit was called a "logos".    https://www.livius.org/sources/about/herodotus/herodotos-bk-1-logos-1/ )

 

 

 

Now shifting to the burden-of-proof comment in Wepwawet's post #228 -- but applying it to modern people who claim that writing an "allegory" (but not a "logos") was Plato's real intention for his Atlantis theme:  Modern "allegory" people should bear their own burden-of-proof to ACTUALLY CITE Stephanus pagination for a passage where Plato used a Greek word that is cognate with "allegory" to describe Plato's Atlantis theme.   

 

I have not found any writers in the century immediately after Plato that claimed Plato intended his Atlantis theme to be primarily some vague "allegory".  IIRC none of Plato's early disciples wrote ANY commentary about ANY Plato dialogue, until Crantor (ca 275 BC) wrote some commentaries on Plato's dialogues.  Therefore my impression is that neither Plato nor his early disciples regarded the Atlantis theme as primarily some vague "allegory".

 

 

 

Yet you are trying to reverse the burden of proof by wanting me, and I guess numerous others, to prove that Plato was not writing allegorically because he did not use the word. Why would Plato need to state that he was writing allegorically, as surely it would be evident to his readership then, and now.

This could just as well be asked of the "Book of the Heavenly Cow", which nowhere even vaguely implies that we are dealing, at least in part, with allegory, otherwise are we to assume that the Egyptians' gods were real. I'm sure that you, and 99.999 % of the world's population would throw that idea out of the window, yet you are happy to believe in just as fantastical a tale by Plato.

I have on my desk right now a copy of the Loeb Classical Library volume IX of Plato, but really I'm not going to trawl through it looking for something that does not exist, and which the non existance of does not absolve the burden of proof of Atlantis falling on you, and all who believe this allegory to be fact.

[jaylemurph]

1 hour ago, atalante said:

 

I have not found any writers in the century immediately after Plato that claimed Plato intended his Atlantis theme to be primarily some vague "allegory".  IIRC none of Plato's early disciples wrote ANY commentary about ANY Plato dialogue, until Crantor (ca 275 BC) wrote some commentaries on Plato's dialogues.  Therefore my impression is that neither Plato nor his early disciples regarded the Atlantis theme as primarily some vague "allegory".

 

 

 

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence; one would think a Classicist would not make so facile an error. 

Oh, wait. 

You’re not a Classicist. Sometimes I forget you don’t actually know Greek. You know online dictionaries and translators, and we all know how reliable /those/ are. 

—Jaylemurph 

[jethrofloyd]

Rojack, atalante... why you guys don't try to find Lincon Island from Jules Werne novel 'The Mysterious Island 'instead of Atlantis? It may be easier for you, Both islands are fiction anyway. 

[Swede]

22 hours ago, Rojack said:

I will provide you with that information as I come across it.

You will need to derive the base-line figures from Plato, correlate the chosen stadion length to temporally relevant historical sources, and apply a little math.

Show some initiative. Will await your final figures.

Ignoring the karst topography of Florida will not make the geology go away. Nor does ignoring the archaeology. Not to mention your abuse of the primary source material.

.

.

[Swede]

22 hours ago, Harte said:

Too late. I have it already.

Harte

Chuckle! Magazine springs? Nice choice!

.

[Swede]

13 hours ago, jethrofloyd said:

Isn't it time for a new Atlantis thread? This one already seems to be beaten to death.

Bad boy. Bad, bad boy.

.

[Harte]

3 hours ago, atalante said:

Wepwawet's post #228 post (above) includes an interesting comment about negative-proofs, vs a burden of proof that belongs on people who claim something exists.  My post here is directed to modern people who claim Plato's Atlantis theme was originally intended to be an "allegory". 

 

 

It is somewhat easy to show that Plato (Critias) said repeatedly that his Atlantis theme is a "logos".  i.e. Tim 20d says twice, in the Greek version, that his Atlantis theme is a "logos"; and Tim 21a follows up with another instance where Plato's Greek description is "logos".

 

(For the era near Plato and his dialogue character Critias-the-Tyrant -- the writings of Herodotus provide us with the most probable way to explain what Critias meant by saying that the Atlantis theme was conceived as a "logos".  In Herodotus's book Histories, each chapter unit was called a "logos".    https://www.livius.org/sources/about/herodotus/herodotos-bk-1-logos-1/ )

 

 

 

Now shifting to the burden-of-proof comment in Wepwawet's post #228 -- but applying it to modern people who claim that writing an "allegory" (but not a "logos") was Plato's real intention for his Atlantis theme:  Modern "allegory" people should bear their own burden-of-proof to ACTUALLY CITE Stephanus pagination for a passage where Plato used a Greek word that is cognate with "allegory" to describe Plato's Atlantis theme.   

 

I have not found any writers in the century immediately after Plato that claimed Plato intended his Atlantis theme to be primarily some vague "allegory".  IIRC none of Plato's early disciples wrote ANY commentary about ANY Plato dialogue, until Crantor (ca 275 BC) wrote some commentaries on Plato's dialogues.  Therefore my impression is that neither Plato nor his early disciples regarded the Atlantis theme as primarily some vague "allegory".

 

Cite the author stating "this work is an allegory?" In the work itself?

Did Swift ever explain himself in his biting satire by saying in the writing itself that "this is a satire?"

That's really a dumb thing to think.

Harte

[Harte]

An allegory is as much a "logos" as any other writing is.

Harte

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

It turns out that Atlantis really is in Florida:

Kennedy Space Center.

[Trelane]

4 hours ago, atalante said:

Wepwawet's post #228 post (above) includes an interesting comment about negative-proofs, vs a burden of proof that belongs on people who claim something exists.  My post here is directed to modern people who claim Plato's Atlantis theme was originally intended to be an "allegory". 

 

 

It is somewhat easy to show that Plato (Critias) said repeatedly that his Atlantis theme is a "logos".  i.e. Tim 20d says twice, in the Greek version, that his Atlantis theme is a "logos"; and Tim 21a follows up with another instance where Plato's Greek description is "logos".

 

(For the era near Plato and his dialogue character Critias-the-Tyrant -- the writings of Herodotus provide us with the most probable way to explain what Critias meant by saying that the Atlantis theme was conceived as a "logos".  In Herodotus's book Histories, each chapter unit was called a "logos".    https://www.livius.org/sources/about/herodotus/herodotos-bk-1-logos-1/ )

 

 

 

Now shifting to the burden-of-proof comment in Wepwawet's post #228 -- but applying it to modern people who claim that writing an "allegory" (but not a "logos") was Plato's real intention for his Atlantis theme:  Modern "allegory" people should bear their own burden-of-proof to ACTUALLY CITE Stephanus pagination for a passage where Plato used a Greek word that is cognate with "allegory" to describe Plato's Atlantis theme.   

 

I have not found any writers in the century immediately after Plato that claimed Plato intended his Atlantis theme to be primarily some vague "allegory".  IIRC none of Plato's early disciples wrote ANY commentary about ANY Plato dialogue, until Crantor (ca 275 BC) wrote some commentaries on Plato's dialogues.  Therefore my impression is that neither Plato nor his early disciples regarded the Atlantis theme as primarily some vague "allegory".

 

 

 

No, no, no. I just want any of those who claim Atlantis is real to point to any sort of archaeological evidence. Some ruins, shards of pottery, maybe a sunken vessel. Anything really.

[Rojack]

3 hours ago, Trelane said:

No, no, no. I just want any of those who claim Atlantis is real to point to any sort of archaeological evidence. Some ruins, shards of pottery, maybe a sunken vessel. Anything really.

Plato described a hill where the royal palace was located. The hill was surrounded by three moats. There were also two springs in the area. If I can show you the hill, will you accept it as evidence?

[cormac mac airt]

28 minutes ago, Rojack said:

Plato described a hill where the royal palace was located. The hill was surrounded by three moats. There were also two springs in the area. If I can show you the hill, will you accept it as evidence?

Only as evidence that you found a hill, who cares, it’s NOT where Plato placed Atlantis so therefore it’s irrelevant to Plato’s story. 
 

cormac

[Hanslune]

6 hours ago, Trelane said:

No, no, no. I just want any of those who claim Atlantis is real to point to any sort of archaeological evidence. Some ruins, shards of pottery, maybe a sunken vessel. Anything really.

Well that has been the problem the size of the Continent of Africa in the two ounce tumbler that is the question of ' is Atlantis real', endless, 10,000s of page have been written trying to get around it and the geological evidence. You'll see endless attempts to talk around it, about it, thorough it, sideways around it, and it still comes back to the that basic question. Where is the evidence that it existed, or an aged Athens, Egypt, an invasion of Med, etc. Nothing.

You see how Atalante is trying to 'talk' about some trivia issue again, and again, and again to get away with the killer piece of info. We are coming up on 2 centuries since whatshisface Donnelly or who ever re-started the Atlantis silliness.

 

Atlantis eccentrics are trimming the left toe nail of a guy who was blow up and only part of his left foot survived - they believe by making the toe nail look good it will bring the man back to life.......

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by Hanslune

[ShadowSot]

6 hours ago, Rojack said:

Plato described a hill where the royal palace was located. The hill was surrounded by three moats. There were also two springs in the area. If I can show you the hill, will you accept it as evidence?

You mentioned you believe the area had been scrubbed clean of any evidence of in habitation. 

 First, where's the evidence of this? 

I'm fairly familiar with this area. 

 Second, you indicate there were multiple countries. 

 Where's the evidence for that? 

 You want to make a claim about a hill. 

 But in reality what you're claiming would have a much wider and deeper archeological imprint. 

[Abramelin]

On 10/27/2020 at 2:13 AM, docyabut2 said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arganthonios

plato

All the outside of the temple, with the exception of the pinnacles, they covered with silver,

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/critias.html

 

Docyabut, here a link to a website that tells you all you ever wanted to know about what you think is Atlantis:

https://www.visit-andalucia.com/one_post.php?id=727&title=the-tartessians-and-the-fabled-land-of-tartessos

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by Abramelin

[Swede]

7 hours ago, Rojack said:

Plato described a hill where the royal palace was located. The hill was surrounded by three moats. There were also two springs in the area. If I can show you the hill, will you accept it as evidence?

Accept a hill as evidence of "Atlantis" ?. Of course not. Have you ever attempted to calculate the number of "hills" that grace this planet? You may wish to seriously absorb the wide range of information that has been provided to you. Do understand that, for the most part, the referenced information can be substantiated by reams of formal research.

Edit: Punctuation.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Swede

[jethrofloyd]

8 hours ago, Rojack said:

Plato described a hill where the royal palace was located.

It sounds the same as my backyard!

[Essan]

20 hours ago, Rojack said:

 

Elephants: Mammoths and mastodons roamed North America during the time of Atlantis. Those extinct giants were Plato’s elephants.

No in Florida

But we have conclusive physical evidence that Atlantis wasn't Florida.    It's called Florida    

[Essan]

9 hours ago, Rojack said:

Plato described a hill where the royal palace was located. The hill was surrounded by three moats. There were also two springs in the area. If I can show you the hill, will you accept it as evidence?

Only if it sank beneath the sea 10,000 years ago.

[docyabut2]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6393371/Could-Atlantis-Satellites-spot-ancient-ruins-flooded-Spanish-coast.html#v-3919522135742790779

[Abramelin]

13 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-6393371/Could-Atlantis-Satellites-spot-ancient-ruins-flooded-Spanish-coast.html#v-3919522135742790779

https://ahotcupofjoe.net/2019/01/how-the-discovery-of-atlantis-made-big-news-then-faded-away/

The “circles” found by Merlin Burrows were experimental ponds used in 2004 and 2005 to measure zooplankton dispersal rates and are located within Caracoles estate (37°07’N, 6°31’W, Fig. 1) in Doñana National Park (Southwest Spain).

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by Abramelin