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Atlantis Explained!


Rojack

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11 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

Prehistory: Bronze Age (2,200 – 850 BC)

In Early Bronze Age, the Argar culture developed, in southeast Iberia, a complex social organization, with intensive agricultural and livestock economy.

 

The cist of Herrerías (Cuevas del Almanzora, Almería), is a burial typical of the metal-working groups who inhabited southeast Iberian at Early Bronze. Inside this cist or box formed by 6 stone slabs, the pioneering archaeologist Luis Siret found a skeleton whose arms and legs had been folded against the left side, perhaps to make it easier to bind the corpse. The dead man's grave goods consisted of his weapons, as befitted men of certain social status, and pottery vessels which his relatives had filled with food offerings to ensure his survival.”

http://www.man.es/man/en/exposicion/recorridos-tematicos/arqueologia-muerte/3-cista-herrerias.html

AS for beehive, tholos tombs….

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beehive_tomb

 

In the Chalcolithic period of the Iberian peninsula, beehive tombs appear among other innovative "megalithic" variants, from c. 3000 BCE. They are especially common in southern Spain and Portugal, while in Central Portugal and southeastern France other styles (artificial caves especially) are preferred instead. The civilization of Los Millares and its Bronze Agesuccessor, El Argar, are particularly related to this burial style.[11]

Are you claiming you can find them earlier than 3000BC in Mycenae?

Nope, I’m saying that this is not a game of mix-n-match like you prefer to play. There is no verifiable direct relationship between the Mycenaeans and Spain, particularly since the Eurasian Steppe/Armenian genetic admixture comprising the Mycenaean ancestors occurred well BEFORE 3000 BC. 
 

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt
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Another strange thing this is….

No Mycenaean priestly class has yet been identified. Worshiper and worshiped are identified in seals, rings and votive figures through their gestures: worshipers fold their arms, or raise the right arm in greeting, or place a hand on the forehead. Deities lift both arms in the "epiphany gesture" or reach forward to give or receive. The pantheon of Mycenaean deities has been reassembled from inscriptions in Linear B found at Pylos and at post-palatial Mycenaean Knossos in Crete. Some of the deities' names are recognizably present in the Olympic pantheon of written myth. Others are not: Ares, for example, is represented only as "Enyalios" which was retained as an epithet. Apollo may be recognized at Knossos as PA-JA-WO ("Paian"). Far more prominent are A-TA-NA PO-TI-NI-JA (Athena Potnia, "Athena the Mistress"), E-RE-U-TI-JA (Eileithyia, later merely invoked during childbirth), Dionysus, and Poseidon, already the "Earth-Shaker", either with his consort Poseida, who was not retained in the transition to Classical Greece, or, at Pylos, with the "Two Goddesses", apparently Demeter and Persephone. The Erinyes or Furies are already present, as are the Winds.”

https://www.hellenicaworld.com/Greece/History/en/MycenaeanGreece.html

So who ran the religion and there seems to have been one, but Mycenaeans weren’t in control of it.

The Libyan priestesses and from Egypt gave the old Greeks who had no priests, their God names. If Herodotus is right. 

Edited by The Puzzler
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6 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Nope, I’m saying that this is not a game of mix-n-match like you prefer to play. There is no verifiable direct relationship between the Mycenaeans and Spain, particularly since the Eurasian Steppe/Armenian genetic admixture comprising the Mycenaean ancestors occurred well BEFORE 3000 BC. 
 

cormac

Just for comparison to mythology. Is Atreus a Hellene? No. Is Agamemnon a Hellene? NO. They have entered Greece from elsewhere. They ruled Mycenae and Sparta through marriage and prestige. The ruled the Hellenes (Peloponnese), Pelops is not even a Hellene….and called on the “Pelasgian men” to fight for them. 

This is only a myth I know, nevertheless, they were not part of the general indigenous type in this context. Now, whether this has proof in reality, I’ve given you some archaeological,example but beyond that, it’s hard to find anything and if it was known, we’d all know. Tutankhamen is R1b…do you think (or know) if the majority of Egyptians also were….?
 

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12 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

Just for comparison to mythology. Is Atreus a Hellene? No. Is Agamemnon a Hellene? NO. They have entered Greece from elsewhere. They ruled Mycenae and Sparta through marriage and prestige. The ruled the Hellenes (Peloponnese), Pelops is not even a Hellene….and called on the “Pelasgian men” to fight for them. 

This is only a myth I know, nevertheless, they were not part of the general indigenous type in this context. Now, whether this has proof in reality, I’ve given you some archaeological,example but beyond that, it’s hard to find anything and if it was known, we’d all know. Tutankhamen is R1b…do you think (or know) if the majority of Egyptians also were….?
 

The majority, no, but members of R1b ARE NOT constrained to just Egyptian royalty as it was and can still be found in Northern Africa and the Levant even amongst the general populace. 
 

cormac

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28 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

Nope, I’m saying that this is not a game of mix-n-match like you prefer to play. There is no verifiable direct relationship between the Mycenaeans and Spain, particularly since the Eurasian Steppe/Armenian genetic admixture comprising the Mycenaean ancestors occurred well BEFORE 3000 BC. 
 

cormac

There's a old linguistic theory of a Greek-Armenian-Albanian relationship. But I'm pulling from memory.

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13 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

The majority, no, but members of R1b ARE NOT constrained to just Egyptian royalty as it was and can still be found in Northern Africa and the Levant even amongst the general populace. 
 

cormac

So, we both know, the ruling class does not have to be indigenous to the majority population. Especially one with no priesthood. Anyway….

Piney is probably right there. 

I don’t doubt Hellenes, not Pelasgians came from that area.

Edited by The Puzzler
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1 minute ago, The Puzzler said:

So, we both know, the ruling class does not have to be indigenous to the majority population. Especially one with no priesthood. Anyway….

Piney is probably right there. 
 

R1b existed in North Africa BEFORE there ever was an “Egypt” to begin with which makes your ruling class scenario moot. 
 

cormac

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10 minutes ago, cormac mac airt said:

R1b existed in North Africa BEFORE there ever was an “Egypt” to begin with which makes your ruling class scenario moot. 
 

cormac

No, you just reinforced the idea. 
I know it did, in North Africa, Libya, before it was divided into what we know today, AND before there was ever an “Egypt”…..the Libyans, Libu, from the West, land of the dead…those who lived West of what was to become “Egypt” was all Libya, where Ammon was worshipped, where Poseidon was worshipped, where Athena was born, where Perseus went, where the Gorgons lived, snake headed Medusa, where everything started in this whole story…..what makes it moot? Hitler was a Berber but E1b…it’s irrelevant in the end, at the time of Tutankhamun is not the time of before “Egypt”.
That Tutankhamen was part of a very old ruling class and was of a different genetic type to the general population? 
 

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8 hours ago, Rojack said:

 

Question: Where was the island of Atlantis?

Plato: “And Poseidon, receiving for his lot the island of Atlantis, begat children by a mortal woman, and settled them in a part of the island, which I will describe.”

Answer: Plato used the terms “island, continent, and island-continent” interchangeably. He was referring to North America, Central America, and South America together as a boundless island continent. Later, you will find that he also referred to the Americas as the whole continent. North America was what Plato called the island-continent of Atlantis. A small island in the city was also called Atlantis. Knowing that information makes decoding lest confusing. If you can translate Greek to English, you are likely to better understand the languages and the errors Plato made. https://goo.gl/maps/qc5H3vzXhKj86ms38

Question: Where was the city of Atlantis?

Answer: The City of Atlantis and the royal city were on the Florida Plain.

Question: Where is the small island of Atlantis?

Answer: The small island of Atlantis is in the city of Atlantis. It has three canals around it.  By the way, the small island is triangular, not circular. The canals are straight, not circular.

Question: Where is the hill that held the royal castle?

Answer: The hill that held the royal castle is in the top righthand corner of the small triangular island. This hill once had three moats around it.

Question: Where is the plain of Atlantis?

Answer: The plain of Atlantis is now the Florida Plain. Florida is flat and even.

Question: Where is the great ditch Plato described?

Answer: Part of the ditch is now the Indian River.

Nope, nope and Nope. 

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On 2/8/2023 at 3:07 AM, Rojack said:

Learning about Atlantis is slow-going, but we are making progress. Let's keep the discussion going. Thanks for your input.

Only for you, the rest of us have it waxed. 

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17 hours ago, Rojack said:

First of all thanks for that valuable information. Here is what I Believe: Since Plato did not have a map, he was just as confused as we are about, what is an Island? He call all the Americas together a boundless continent, a whole continent, and ( SA) the opposite continent. This means that it is the terrain features that makes the difference. We have to make the language fit the terrain. You may have to read through the story a few times to get to this point. From this point onward, You can match the plain of Atlantis to the Florida Plain. That is where you will find  the small island of Atlantis.

Exactly, its what you believe, its not based on fact or anything else other than your belief system. 

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8 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

No, you just reinforced the idea. 
I know it did, in North Africa, Libya, before it was divided into what we know today, AND before there was ever an “Egypt”…..the Libyans, Libu, from the West, land of the dead…those who lived West of what was to become “Egypt” was all Libya, where Ammon was worshipped, where Poseidon was worshipped, where Athena was born, where Perseus went, where the Gorgons lived, snake headed Medusa, where everything started in this whole story…..what makes it moot? 
That Tutankhamen was part of a very old ruling class and was of a different genetic type to the general population? 
 

When I said North Africa I meant ALL of North Africa you’re being a bit disingenuous by trying to separate “west of Egypt” from ALL of North Africa. North Africa IS NOT just Libya, as the term was used back then. 
 

And again, there is no evidence that Tut was a different genetic type than all of the general population. 
 

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt
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Getting a bit off topic anyway…

 

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On 2/8/2023 at 11:07 AM, Rojack said:

Learning about Atlantis is slow-going, but we are making progress. Let's keep the discussion going. Thanks for your input.

I’m interested how you came to this conclusion.

What led you to think Florida could be ancient Atlantis, the geology? Any remnants of mythology, history, archeological evidence of descriptive culture there? I’m genuinely interested. What was the key that opened this door?

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9 minutes ago, The Puzzler said:

I’m interested how you came to this conclusion.

What led you to think Florida could be ancient Atlantis, the geology? Any remnants of mythology, history, archeological evidence of descriptive culture there? I’m genuinely interested. What was the key that opened this door?

The key can only be one of 2 things in my opinion. 1 - Ideal hands - IE nothing better to do..... 2 - Or pure madness. 

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So, Atlantis is at Cape Kennedy?

 

3633B1C8-BFB4-45A1-87A7-080C657F04EB.jpeg

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7 hours ago, Peter Cox said:

The key can only be one of 2 things in my opinion. 1 - Ideal hands - IE nothing better to do..... 2 - Or pure madness. 

Florida is not just Atlantis. Tampa is the birth place of Atlantis. From there, Atlantis spread out through the America's. The research is very simple. Find Tampa on map and match it's description to Plato's Plain of Atlantis.

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8 minutes ago, Rojack said:

Florida is not just Atlantis. Tampa is the birth place of Atlantis. From there, Atlantis spread out through the America's. The research is very simple. Find Tampa on map and match it's description to Plato's Plain of Atlantis.

Your “research” is fiction. 
 

cormac

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35 minutes ago, Rojack said:

Florida is not just Atlantis. Tampa is the birth place of Atlantis. From there, Atlantis spread out through the America's. The research is very simple. Find Tampa on map and match it's description to Plato's Plain of Atlantis.

You are making a your own version of a fictional story. What you are doing is writing your own fan fiction of Platos story.

Edited by Noteverythingisaconspiracy
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Rojack said:

Quote

Florida is not just Atlantis. Tampa is the birth place of Atlantis. From there, Atlantis spread out through the America's. The research is very simple. Find Tampa on map and match it's description to Plato's Plain of Atlantis.

This is effectively gaslighting Plato: presumably on the basis that, if it continues for long enough in the face of all reason and logic, it'll eventually prevail.

But here's the thing.

No: it won't.

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16 hours ago, The Puzzler said:

I think the war is the contest for Athens between Poseidon and Athena because of the names mentioned of men in the war. 
It matches also in that a Poseidon led people, possibly Libyan influenced Mycenaeans…against Athens, Athena, also described as Libyan in some mythology. The whole story IMO comes from Libya actually, into Sais via priests who did know an event (1700-1500BC)  of this hostile attempt to over throw the Pelasgic (Cycladic) Athenian culture by the Hellenic (European mainland) Mycenaeans but they never really did. Athens won but the event sank from memory at that time. The striking of Poseidon’s staff indicates an earthquake may have occurred simultaneously, with the earthquakes that preceded Thera and the Acropolis shows signs of this. I believe the sources found can indicate that Mycenaean royalty came from Spain. The myths tell us the Atrieds (Agamemnon etc)  were not Greek. Buildings and tombs of same type are older from Spain.
This event, in myth led to democracy within the Athenian constitution. Which I believe was Platos driving force behind the story.

Puzzler,

Plenty of loose ends in Greek mythology can be tied together to support your type of synthesis, about what happened in a "pre-Perseus" era for Greece (and how classical Greek beliefs about the Greek past affected Plato's Atlantis theme).  

 

a)  Medusa1 can be generally equivalent to the North African goddess Tanit.  Poseidon allegedly brought Medusa1 to pre-Athens.  https://www.maicar.com/GML/Medusa1.html

The beauty of Medusa 1

Still others affirm that Medusa 1 was a beautiful woman and the hope of many suitors, and that the most beautiful in her was her magnificent hair. However, fair Medusa 1 was ravished in the temple of Athena by Poseidon, and in order to punish this deed, Athena changed the beautiful locks of Medusa 1 into repugnant snakes.

 

b)  Poseidon tried to control Corinth, but was only partially successful. https://maicar.com/GML/Corinth.html

 

c) Poseidon disputed with with Hera for control of Argos and the Argolid region (but Poseidon lost this dispute).  https://www.maicar.com/GML/Poseidon.html

 

d)  Poseidon's son Eumolpus1 attacked the region of Athens, from North Africa, in what was called the Eleusinian War between Eleusis and Athens.  Eventually Eumolpus1 and his descendants became priests and priestesses for the Eleusinian mysteries.    

https://maicar.com/GML/Eleusis.html

 Eumolpus 1

During the reign of Erechtheus in Athens, war broke out against the Eleusinians, who were assisted by Eumolpus 1. This Eumolpus 1 attacked Athens because, as he put it, that land belonged to his father Poseidon. But despite his father's power, Eumolpus 1 was defeated and killed by Erechtheus along with his son Ismarus 2 (also called Immaradus), who commanded the troops. 

.... When the war concluded without being fought out, it was agreed that Eleusis was to keep independent control of the mysteries, becoming the subject of Athens in all other matters. Eumolpus 1 was appointed to administer the mysteries, and after him, his own son Ceryx, and Celeus 1's daughters Saesara, Diogenia 2 and Pammerope.

.... And of Erechtheus it has also been said that he was by birth an Egyptian, and that he became king of Athens for having brought from Egypt a great supply of grain when drought and the destruction of crops threatened Athens. And when this city then made is benefactor king, he instituted the Eleusinian mysteries, transferring their ritual from Egypt. But all these events being uncertain, it has been said that:

"Ancient legends, deprived of the help of poetry, have given rise to many fictions, especially concerning the pedigrees of heroes." (Pausanias, Description of Greece 1.38.7).

 

e)  Danaus and Erechtheus were nearly. but not perfectly, contemporary in the Greek myths.  A storyline of the Greek myths indicates that mythical Danaus opened the era of travel between mainland Greece and pharaonic Egypt.

A few years after the time of Danaus, Erechtheus might have performed commercial activity with Egypt, to obtain food for mainland Greece (but such a grain caravan is usually not mentioned in modern writings about Erechtheus).  For example of the grain trade omission, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erechtheus

 

f)  Herodotus provided his own version of how some parts of the Eleusinian mysteries were founded in Greece.(but eventually forgotten among most Greeks). 

Herodotus 2.170 - 2.171  https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0126%3Abook%3D2%3Achapter%3D170

170.  There is also at Saïs the burial-place of one [Osiris] whose name I think it impious to mention in speaking of such a matter; it is in the temple of Athena, behind and close to the length of the wall of the shrine. [2] Moreover, great stone obelisks stand in the precinct; and there is a lake nearby, adorned with a stone margin and made in a complete circle; it is, as it seemed to me, the size of the lake at Delos which they call the Round Pond.

171.  On this lake they enact by night the story of the god's sufferings, a rite which the Egyptians call the Mysteries. I could say more about this, for I know the truth, but let me preserve a discreet silence. [2] Let me preserve a discreet silence, too, concerning that rite of Demeter which the Greeks call Thesmophoria 1, except as much of it as I am not forbidden to mention. [3] The daughters of Danaus were those who brought this rite out of Egypt and taught it to the Pelasgian women; afterwards, when the people of the Peloponnese were driven out by the Dorians, it was lost, except in so far as it was preserved by the Arcadians, the Peloponnesian people which was not driven out but left in its home.

Edited by atalante
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9 hours ago, Rojack said:

Florida is not just Atlantis. Tampa is the birth place of Atlantis. From there, Atlantis spread out through the America's. The research is very simple. Find Tampa on map and match it's description to Plato's Plain of Atlantis.

Wait, I see it now. This is amazing, I spent all night here reading over Plato and what he said. Rojack I think you are onto something here...... 

Oh wait - No you not, I checked Florida on a map and compared it to the Atlantis "story" and then re-check it on a map and found it to be ABOVE sea level, NO impassable mud, NOT directly outside the Pillars of Hercules, WRONG size, NO clear buildings, rings of water, NO hidden lost civilization, NOT and island, NOT a plain, NOT surrounded by mountains, and no physical or archeological evidence of an ancient race AT ALL that dates to the time of Atlantis. 

Then i decided to look a bit deeper into it and found...... There was no connection from Florida to Egypt at the time AT ALL, no travel, not even 1 email from them to the ancients in Egypt at the time of Plato's Atlantis, (In fact Egypt was not an established civilization either at the time it was unified around 3100 B.C.E Plato's Atlantis is 12500 years ago a full 6000 years before Egypt was fully established) so how did a place that didn't exist at the time know about a place that they had NEVER had communications with, seen, visited or had them visit / or know about it? Its IMPOSSIBLE. So the Priest would have never seen or heard of America at all and most certainly never met an America (Atlantean in your version). The only conclusion is that its a made up story. 

Your theory (or rather made up fictional fantasy) has no place in facts, reality and the story of Plato (As proven by the above and SEVERAL HUNDRED other posts here). Your only Proof is in your mind I have listed several reasons why it is NOT and can NEVER be Florida but you will just say "Plato got it wrong" and carry on with its Florida like a 3 year old and a push cart. Only difference is the 3 year old will get tired at some point, you seem to never die with peddling this drivel. 

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9 hours ago, cormac mac airt said:

Your “research” is fiction. 
 

cormac

His "research"...... yet to see any... Fiction indeed. 

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10 hours ago, Peter Cox said:

Wait, I see it now. This is amazing, I spent all night here reading over Plato and what he said. Rojack I think you are onto something here...... 

Oh wait - No you not, I checked Florida on a map and compared it to the Atlantis "story" and then re-check it on a map and found it to be ABOVE sea level, NO impassable mud, NOT directly outside the Pillars of Hercules, WRONG size, NO clear buildings, rings of water, NO hidden lost civilization, NOT and island, NOT a plain, NOT surrounded by mountains, and no physical or archeological evidence of an ancient race AT ALL that dates to the time of Atlantis. 

Then i decided to look a bit deeper into it and found...... There was no connection from Florida to Egypt at the time AT ALL, no travel, not even 1 email from them to the ancients in Egypt at the time of Plato's Atlantis, (In fact Egypt was not an established civilization either at the time it was unified around 3100 B.C.E Plato's Atlantis is 12500 years ago a full 6000 years before Egypt was fully established) so how did a place that didn't exist at the time know about a place that they had NEVER had communications with, seen, visited or had them visit / or know about it? Its IMPOSSIBLE. So the Priest would have never seen or heard of America at all and most certainly never met an America (Atlantean in your version). The only conclusion is that its a made up story. 

Your theory (or rather made up fictional fantasy) has no place in facts, reality and the story of Plato (As proven by the above and SEVERAL HUNDRED other posts here). Your only Proof is in your mind I have listed several reasons why it is NOT and can NEVER be Florida but you will just say "Plato got it wrong" and carry on with its Florida like a 3 year old and a push cart. Only difference is the 3 year old will get tired at some point, you seem to never die with peddling this drivel. 

 

10 hours ago, Peter Cox said:

His "research"...... yet to see any... Fiction indeed. 

First of all, thanks for your input,

However, If you carefully read through Plato's story, you will find the location of the three rings of water that surrounded the castle.. If you read a little further, you will find that they bridged over the three moats that surrounded the castle.  If you study the map, you will find one of the two springs that provided both hot and cold water.

https://goo.gl/maps/SGrtx3rFWTyWWHZbA

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1 hour ago, Rojack said:

 

... If you carefully read through Plato's story, you will find the location of the three rings of water that surrounded the castle.. If you read a little further, you will find that they bridged over the three moats that surrounded the castle.  If you study the map, you will find one of the two springs that provided both hot and cold water.

https://goo.gl/maps/SGrtx3rFWTyWWHZbA

 

Interesting .....

Just over a year ago:

Posted December 1, 2021 (edited), Swede wrote:

 

Quote

One is at a loss to understand your perpetual confusions. To repeat #831 in its entirety, with added emphasis:

Harbour Island, formerly known as Seddon Island, is a modern construct that did not exist prior to 1906

Seddon [Harbour] Island did not exist prior to 1906. In its place was a lot of water and a small portion of an island commonly known as Little Grassy Island.

The Corps’ shipping channel cut through Little Grassy Island on its way to the Hillsborough River. A byproduct of the dredging work was sand — lots of sand. So much sand, in fact, that engineers were able to deposit it along the eastern side of the new channel near (and on) Little Grassy Island to create a bigger island for the port’s use.

https://tampamagazines.com/harbour-island-a-tampa-neighborhoods-history/

Do you not grasp the above? Your landform and the associated canals are documented to be the product of circa 1906 Corps of Engineers projects. Your attempts to "decode" Plato are totally irrelevant.

As to elevations, the only feature even worthy of note is a small rise (~ 12 m/40') in the northwest quadrant of Harbour Island that likely represents either the original Little Grassy Island or modern construction activities:

https://en-gb.topographic-map.com/maps/exgq/Harbour-Island/

Edit: Typo.

The distance from Grassy Island to Seascape is about 120 miles.

Could Plato not make up his mind whereabouts in Florida to site (the fictional) location of Atlantis ... ?

Overdone the sunbathing and indulged in too many margaritas, had he?  

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