Atlantis Explained!

[cormac mac airt]

4 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

I think we all know it was Atlantis:)

https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/2500-year-old-city-buried-under-flood-sediment-may-belong-lost-civilization-020521

 

I think we all know there’s no evidence of that.  Calling something Atlantis doesn’t make it true. 
 

cormac

[Hanslune]

41 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Yea, that would be roughly 9000 years before Athens existed. 
GREAT SCOTT! The ancient Athenians had time travel.

A minor chronological problem. The most important thing is to strongly state that one of the hundreds of places where 'Atlantis' might be, is the one even if it violates what Plato said.

Endless repetition of a claim is more important than the lack of evidence to support it.

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

A minor chronological problem. The most important thing is to strongly state that one of the hundreds of places where 'Atlantis' might be, is the one even if it violates what Plato said.

Endless repetition of a claim is more important than the lack of evidence to support it.

Plato's version of Atlantis is optional when people talk about Plato's Atlantis. Somehow that makes sense to some.  

[Hanslune]

2 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Plato's version of Atlantis is optional when people talk about Plato's Atlantis. Somehow that makes sense to some.  

Of course Plato's description is self-debunking THEREFORE parts of it must be ignored, hand waved away or changed by a magical display of irrational logic....

[Harte]

1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

Of course Plato's description is self-debunking THEREFORE parts of it must be ignored, hand waved away or changed by a magical display of irrational logic....

That means that to debunk Atlantis is to prove it existed, since a double debunk cancels out.

Harte

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

6 minutes ago, Harte said:

That means that to debunk Atlantis is to prove it existed, since a double debunk cancels out.

Harte

[ShadowSot]

On 4/15/2021 at 5:47 AM, Piney said:

 

Its been ages since I heard that. Probably be in my head all week now. 

[Harte]

I like the Snow Miser one better.

Harte

 

[+Pettytalk]

On the anniversary of this topic, Atlantis Explained, which deals with a very ancient story, one revealed to us by the "immortal" hero of Western Thought, Plato, I reincarnate this into new life. Atlantis, the story that does not want to die. After nearly 2,500 years, it's still in the news, and still searched out by many who have been mesmerized by our ancient and greatest of philosopher/writer into believing that the STORY of Atlantis was a TRUE one. 

This is what really needs to be explained....why does Atlantis refuses to die and still lives on? Does anyone really know? I don't think so. And why is that? Because no one ever understood what Plato deeply embedded in all his dialogues, and not just the two main dialogues dealing with the Atlantis story, The Timaeus and the Critias. No one really understands why the Critias was not completed by Plato, as it stopped, Figuratively, Literally and Literately in the middle of a SENTENCE. Lots of speculations have been pronounced by the academics, as to why, or some have also entertained the idea that it was completed, but the rest was lost. And since it is implied, in the Timaeus, that it was to have been a trilogy, some are of opinion that the expected third dialogue, the Hermocrates, lost too, or was never written. There is a real and special purpose for the story of Atlantis, one that, to DATE, no one as ever arrived at. 

The following are extracts from Jowett's translations.   Note: the CAPITAL emphasis and in () of the text is mine.

Ending of the extant Critias:

Zeus, the god of gods, who rules according to law, and is able to see into such things, perceiving that an honourable race was in a woeful plight, and wanting to INFLICT PUNISHMENT on them, that they might be CHASTENED and IMPROVE (NOT DESTROY), collected all the gods into their most holy habitation, which, being placed in the centre of the world, beholds all created things. And when he had called them together, he spake as follows—[*]

     * The rest of the Dialogue of Critias has been lost.

 

Part of the beginning of the Timaeus:

Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.

I have told you briefly, Socrates, what the aged Critias heard from Solon and related to us. And when you were speaking yesterday about your city and citizens (PLATO'S REPUBLIC), the tale which I have just been repeating to you came into my mind, and I remarked with astonishment how, by some MYSTERIOUS COINCIDENCE, you agreed in almost every particular with the narrative of Solon; but I did not like to speak at the moment. For a long time had elapsed, and I had forgotten too much; I thought that I must first of all run over the narrative in my own mind, and then I would speak. And so I readily assented to your request yesterday, considering that in all such cases the chief difficulty is to find a tale SUITABLE TO OUR PURPOSE, and that with such a tale we should be fairly well provided.

And therefore, as Hermocrates has told you, on my way home yesterday I at once communicated the tale to my companions as I remembered it; and after I left them, during the night by thinking I recovered nearly the whole of it. Truly, as is often said, the lessons of our childhood make a wonderful impression on our memories; for I am not sure that I could remember all the discourse of yesterday, but I should be much surprised if I forgot any of these things which I have heard very long ago. I listened at the time with childlike interest to the old man’s narrative; he was very ready to teach me, and I asked him again and again to repeat his words, so that like an indelible picture they were branded into my mind. As soon as the day broke, I rehearsed them as he spoke them to my companions, that they, as well as myself, might have something to say. And now, Socrates, to make an end of my preface, I am ready to tell you the whole tale. I will give you not only the general heads, but the particulars, as they were told to me. The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonize, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. Let us divide the subject among us, and all endeavour according to our ability gracefully to execute the task which you have imposed upon us. Consider then, Socrates, if this narrative is suited to the purpose, or whether we should seek for some other instead.

SOCRATES: And what other, Critias, can we find that will be better than this, which is natural and suitable to the festival of the goddess, and has the very great advantage of being a FACT and NOT a FICTION? How or where shall we find another if we abandon this? We cannot, and therefore YOU MUST TELL THE TALE, and good luck to you; and I in return for my yesterday’s discourse will now rest and be a listener.

   

[docyabut2]

2,500-year-old city buried under flood sediment may belong to lost civilization in Spain | Ancient Origins (ancient-origins.net)

Atlantis  was found

[Abramelin]

2 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

2,500-year-old city buried under flood sediment may belong to lost civilization in Spain | Ancient Origins (ancient-origins.net)

Atlantis  was found

 

[+Pettytalk]

2 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

2,500-year-old city buried under flood sediment may belong to lost civilization in Spain | Ancient Origins (ancient-origins.net)

Atlantis  was found

Dear Docy, I'm well aware of your belief in Atlantis having been found, as I'm not new to the topic, nor to your persistent repetition of this belief in many of your posts.

I'm trying to direct the discussion, if anyone wants to join here, towards its realm of reality. And where are we to find Atlantis in reality? It's a matter of metaphysics, and finding the KEY to understand Plato. It's a matter of SOUL, because it was all planned and arranged long ago. Only the person with the soul on which the key was planted in can reveal the truth and purpose of the story of Atlantis.  And the time is right for the reaping!

SOCRATES: I mean an intelligent word graven in the soul of the learner, which can defend itself, and knows when to speak and when to be silent.

 

SOCRATES: He would be a very simple person, and quite a stranger to the
oracles of Thamus or Ammon, who should leave in writing or receive in writing
any art under the idea that the written word would be intelligible or certain; or
who deemed that writing was at all better than knowledge and recollection of
the same matters?
PHAEDRUS: That is most true.
SOCRATES: I cannot help feeling, Phaedrus, that writing is unfortunately
like painting; for the creations of the painter have the attitude of life, and yet
if you ask them a question they preserve a solemn silence. And the same may
be said of speeches. You would imagine that they had intelligence, but if you
want to know anything and put a question to one of them, the speaker always
gives one unvarying answer. And when they have been once written down they
are tumbled about anywhere among those who may or may not understand
them, and know not to whom they should reply, to whom not: and, if they are
maltreated or abused, they have no parent to protect them; and they cannot
protect or defend themselves.
PHAEDRUS: That again is most true.
SOCRATES: Is there not another kind of word or speech far better than this,
and having far greater power–a son of the same family, but lawfully begotten?
PHAEDRUS: Whom do you mean, and what is his origin?
SOCRATES: I mean an intelligent word graven in the soul of the learner,
which can defend itself, and knows when to speak and when to be silent.
PHAEDRUS: You mean the living word of knowledge which has a soul, and
of which the written word is properly no more than an image?
SOCRATES: Yes, of course that is what I mean. And now may I be allowed
to ask you a question: Would a husbandman, who is a man of sense, take the
seeds, which he values and which he wishes to bear fruit, and in sober seriousness
plant them during the heat of summer, in some garden of Adonis, that he may
rejoice when he sees them in eight days appearing in beauty? at least he would
do so, if at all, only for the sake of amusement and pastime. But when he is
in earnest he sows in fitting soil, and practises husbandry, and is satisfied if in
eight months the seeds which he has sown arrive at perfection?
PHAEDRUS: Yes, Socrates, that will be his way when he is in earnest; he
will do the other, as you say, only in play.
SOCRATES: And can we suppose that he who knows the just and good and
honourable has less understanding, than the husbandman, about his own seeds?
PHAEDRUS: Certainly not.
SOCRATES: Then he will not seriously incline to ’write’ his thoughts ’in
water’ with pen and ink, sowing words which can neither speak for themselves
nor teach the truth adequately to others?
PHAEDRUS: No, that is not likely. 

 

[Abramelin]

Docy:

Here are the flags/symbols of Tartessos and Lisbon (and let's all wonder about those crows, heh):

 

[jaylemurph]

I’m wondering what exactly about a thread that has been stone-cold dead for six months leads you to believe people want to talk about it. 

—Jaylemurph 

[Abramelin]

5 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

I’m wondering what exactly about a thread that has been stone-cold dead for six months leads you to believe people want to talk about it. 

—Jaylemurph 

She forgot she posted it like a dozen times before.

It was YOU who pointed out her problem (and Swede).

[Abramelin]

4 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

2,500-year-old city buried under flood sediment may belong to lost civilization in Spain | Ancient Origins (ancient-origins.net)

Atlantis  was found

It's a settlement by Carthagians:

 

[Trelane]

Clearly Atlantis was found in the Sahara. That's the interdimensional portal for all cryptids and UFOs.

Edited October 17, 2021 by Trelane

[docyabut2]

2 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

Dear Docy, I'm well aware of your belief in Atlantis having been found, as I'm not new to the topic, nor to your persistent repetition of this belief in many of your posts.

I'm trying to direct the discussion, if anyone wants to join here, towards its realm of reality. And where are we to find Atlantis in reality? It's a matter of metaphysics, and finding the KEY to understand Plato. It's a matter of SOUL, because it was all planned and arranged long ago. Only the person with the soul on which the key was planted in can reveal the truth and purpose of the story of Atlantis.  And the time is right for the reaping!

SOCRATES: I mean an intelligent word graven in the soul of the learner, which can defend itself, and knows when to speak and when to be silent.

 

SOCRATES: He would be a very simple person, and quite a stranger to the
oracles of Thamus or Ammon, who should leave in writing or receive in writing
any art under the idea that the written word would be intelligible or certain; or
who deemed that writing was at all better than knowledge and recollection of
the same matters?
PHAEDRUS: That is most true.
SOCRATES: I cannot help feeling, Phaedrus, that writing is unfortunately
like painting; for the creations of the painter have the attitude of life, and yet
if you ask them a question they preserve a solemn silence. And the same may
be said of speeches. You would imagine that they had intelligence, but if you
want to know anything and put a question to one of them, the speaker always
gives one unvarying answer. And when they have been once written down they
are tumbled about anywhere among those who may or may not understand
them, and know not to whom they should reply, to whom not: and, if they are
maltreated or abused, they have no parent to protect them; and they cannot
protect or defend themselves.
PHAEDRUS: That again is most true.
SOCRATES: Is there not another kind of word or speech far better than this,
and having far greater power–a son of the same family, but lawfully begotten?
PHAEDRUS: Whom do you mean, and what is his origin?
SOCRATES: I mean an intelligent word graven in the soul of the learner,
which can defend itself, and knows when to speak and when to be silent.
PHAEDRUS: You mean the living word of knowledge which has a soul, and
of which the written word is properly no more than an image?
SOCRATES: Yes, of course that is what I mean. And now may I be allowed
to ask you a question: Would a husbandman, who is a man of sense, take the
seeds, which he values and which he wishes to bear fruit, and in sober seriousness
plant them during the heat of summer, in some garden of Adonis, that he may
rejoice when he sees them in eight days appearing in beauty? at least he would
do so, if at all, only for the sake of amusement and pastime. But when he is
in earnest he sows in fitting soil, and practises husbandry, and is satisfied if in
eight months the seeds which he has sown arrive at perfection?
PHAEDRUS: Yes, Socrates, that will be his way when he is in earnest; he
will do the other, as you say, only in play.
SOCRATES: And can we suppose that he who knows the just and good and
honourable has less understanding, than the husbandman, about his own seeds?
PHAEDRUS: Certainly not.
SOCRATES: Then he will not seriously incline to ’write’ his thoughts ’in
water’ with pen and ink, sowing words which can neither speak for themselves
nor teach the truth adequately to others?
PHAEDRUS: No, that is not likely. 

 

 Critias made up the story of Atlantis of a lost civilization in Spain.

 2,500-year-old city buried under flood sediment may belong to lost civilization in Spain | Ancient Origins (ancient-origins.net)

Critias - Wikipedia

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2021 by docyabut2

[Abramelin]

50 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

 Critias made up the story of Atlantis of a lost civilization in Spain.

 2,500-year-old city buried under flood sediment may belong to lost civilization in Spain | Ancient Origins (ancient-origins.net)

Critias - Wikipedia

 

 

 

 

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

4 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

I’m wondering what exactly about a thread that has been stone-cold dead for six months leads you to believe people want to talk about it. 

—Jaylemurph 

Well @Pettytalk was Plato in a previous incarnation so presumably he knows what he talks about. 

(I'm not making that up , he did actually make that claim)

[Hanslune]

11 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

Well @Pettytalk was Plato in a previous incarnation so presumably he knows what he talks about. 

(I'm not making that up , he did actually make that claim)

I'm glad you reminded me of that. Quite amusing - was he the one who said he had been Plato but  somehow didn't know he was suppose to be able to speak Attic?

I still get a chuckle over that.....

---------------------------

I was Napoleon in a previous life!

Really, Arrête ton char!

What? No, I don't speak French....

[atalante]

6 hours ago, Pettytalk said:

Dear Docy, I'm well aware of your belief in Atlantis having been found, as I'm not new to the topic, nor to your persistent repetition of this belief in many of your posts.

I'm trying to direct the discussion, if anyone wants to join here, towards its realm of reality. And where are we to find Atlantis in reality? .....

SOCRATES: I cannot help feeling, Phaedrus, that writing is unfortunately
like painting; for the creations of the painter have the attitude of life, and yet
if you ask them a question they preserve a solemn silence. And the same may
be said of speeches. You would imagine that they had intelligence, but if you
want to know anything and put a question to one of them, the speaker always
gives one unvarying answer. And when they have been once written down they
are tumbled about anywhere among those who may or may not understand
them, and know not to whom they should reply, to whom not: and, if they are
maltreated or abused, they have no parent to protect them; and they cannot
protect or defend themselves.

...................
 

 

 

Critias 107b-108a was (and still is) a discussion of ordinary geography, about places for which Greeks in Solon's era (c.570 BC) still had "no exact knowledge about such objects".  Consequently 107b-108a explains why the Atlantis dialogues were only intended to give "an inexact and deceptive sketch" (i.e.  derived from the viewpoint of Solon's 570 BC era) about the location and geography of Atlantis.   

 

So let me go over this 107b-108a passage again, to emphasize Plato's (or the Critias character's) admission that all readers should expect, and should "tolerate", fuzziness in the dialogue's geographical statements. 

 

 

Critias dialogue (translation by Lamb/Bury)

 

Critias
[107b]  ....in order that I may explain my meaning more clearly, pray follow me further. The accounts given by us all must be, of course, of the nature of imitations and representations; and if we look at the portraiture .... of human bodies as executed by painters,

 

[107c] in respect of the ease or difficulty with which they succeed in imitating their subjects in the opinion of onlookers, we shall notice in the first place that as regards the the earth and mountains and rivers and woods and the whole of heaven,with the things that exist and move therein, we are content if a man is able to represent them with even a small degree of likeness; and further, that, inasmuch as we have no exact knowledge about such objects, we do not examine closely or criticize the paintings, but tolerate, in such cases, an inexact

 

[107d] and deceptive sketch. 

On the other hand, whenever a painter tries to render a likeness of our own bodies, we quickly perceive what is defective because of our constant familiar acquaintance with them, and become severe critics of him who fails to bring out to the full all the points of similarity.

 

And precisely the same thing happens, as we should notice, in the case of discourses ....

[107e] ... To an account given now on the spur of the moment indulgence must be granted, should we fail to make it a wholly fitting representation; for one must conceive of mortal objects as being difficult, and not easy, to represent satisfactorily. It is because I wish to remind you of these facts,

 

[108a] and crave a greater rather than a less measure of indulgence for what I am about to say, that I have made all these observations, Socrates. If, therefore, I seem justified in craving this boon, pray grant it willingly.

Socrates
And why should we hesitate to grant it, Critias?

Edited October 17, 2021 by atalante

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

15 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

I was Napoleon in a previous life!

I was admiral Nelson.

..... wait a minute that means I was the one who sank our fleet and burned Copenhagen. I better not tell anyone the next time I go there.  

[Hanslune]

30 minutes ago, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

I was admiral Nelson.

..... wait a minute that means I was the one who sank our fleet and burned Copenhagen. I better not tell anyone the next time I go there.  

Hey you know they deserved it!

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

26 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

Hey you know they deserved it!

I think you are thinking of Sweden.