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Atlantis Explained!


Rojack

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3 hours ago, atalante said:
According to Proclus's commentary on the Timaeus dialogue, the first Platonic writers who explained the Atlantis theme as an allegory were Numenius, Origen and Porphyry - who all lived after the end of Hellenistic Greek rule of Egypt. 

After, that is, Plato himself. 

—Jaylemurph 

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On 10/21/2020 at 6:48 AM, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

If one part of the story isn't true, in this case the gods, surely the rest of the story should be treated with caution. So how do you evaluate which parts are true and which part are just "custom of his era" ?

If one part of Critias’ story is true, in this case, the location of the island of Atlantis, logically, the rest of his story should be treated as true. So how do you evaluate which parts are true and which parts are untrue? If you find the island of Atlantis with three large canals around it (Just as Critias described), can’t you assume that the rest of his story is true?

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16 minutes ago, Rojack said:

If one part of Critias’ story is true, in this case, the location of the island of Atlantis, logically, the rest of his story should be treated as true. So how do you evaluate which parts are true and which parts are untrue? If you find the island of Atlantis with three large canals around it (Just as Critias described), can’t you assume that the rest of his story is true?

You've asserted its true, you haven't demonstrated its true. You state its true because of your cherry picked similarities, but there's no actual evidence matching it to the site, and ignoring the parts that don't fit. 

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23 minutes ago, Rojack said:

If one part of Critias’ story is true, in this case, the location of the island of Atlantis, logically, the rest of his story should be treated as true. So how do you evaluate which parts are true and which parts are untrue? If you find the island of Atlantis with three large canals around it (Just as Critias described), can’t you assume that the rest of his story is true?

The problem here is that no one have found the island of Atlantis, only places that they wish is Atlantis. 

If you find an island that fullfill none of Platos desciption its not really Platos Atlantis is it ? Its just an island.

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4 hours ago, atalante said:
The key "truth" about the Timaeus dialogue is presented at the very beginning of the Timaeus dialogue (Tim 17a-20c).  i.e. Socrates claims (in a somewhat cryptic way) that he has presented a partial-sequel to the Republic dialogue on the previous day - but tied to a specific pre-condition that the attendees of the Atlantis dinner party must pay Socrates back now, by explaining how experienced political and military leaders (such as the attendees of this dinner party) would conduct a just war for Socrates's ideal state. 
 
Another important "truth" is that, among the three attendees at this Atlantis dinner party, Hermocrates is only attendee whose human counterpart (Hermocrates of Syracuse) was an experienced military commander.  Moreover, at the current endpoint of the Critias dialogue (where readers are told that the Atlanteans will soon be "chastised"), the Atlantean war has still not been described in tactical detail.  Therefore Socrates has still not received the "payback" that he requested in Tim 17a-20c.  And the Hermocrates character is the only attendee of the Atlantis dinner party with an expert skill set for conducting warfare.  Readers of the Tim-Crit dialogues have been informed (in Crit 108c) that Hermocrates will continue the discussion after Critias has finished speaking.
 
Many or most of the remaining details in the Atlantis theme depend on understanding the customs of Solon's era, and Critias's era and Plato's era.
 
According to Proclus's commentary on the Timaeus dialogue, the first Platonic writers who explained the Atlantis theme as an allegory were Numenius, Origen and Porphyry - who all lived after the end of Hellenistic Greek rule of Egypt. 
 
 

That does not answer my question.

On 10/21/2020 at 6:48 PM, Noteverythingisaconspiracy said:

If one part of the story isn't true, in this case the gods, surely the rest of the story should be treated with caution. So how do you evaluate which parts are true and which part are just "custom of his era" ?

Do you have an actual answer to the question ?  

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1 hour ago, Rojack said:

If one part of Critias’ story is true, in this case, the location of the island of Atlantis, logically, the rest of his story should be treated as true. So how do you evaluate which parts are true and which parts are untrue? If you find the island of Atlantis with three large canals around it (Just as Critias described), can’t you assume that the rest of his story is true?

If one reinterprets Plato’s Atlantis as being located anywhere other than where Plato located it then that person’s interpretation can be summarily dismissed as it’s intellectually dishonest, regardless of whether or not Plato meant for his Atlantis to be taken as truth or alllegory. 
 

cormac

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2 hours ago, Rojack said:

If one part of Critias’ story is true, in this case, the location of the island of Atlantis, logically, the rest of his story should be treated as true. So how do you evaluate which parts are true and which parts are untrue? If you find the island of Atlantis with three large canals around it (Just as Critias described), can’t you assume that the rest of his story is true?

That is not "logical." It's just convenient for your "argument."

Looks like you need to go back and re-take Freshman Comp. Or possibly Beginning Logic. In any case, we'll be suspending your poetic license until such time as you can prove you can use it responsibly and honestly.

--Jaylemurph

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10 minutes ago, jaylemurph said:

That is not "logical." It's just convenient for your "argument."

Looks like you need to go back and re-take Freshman Comp. Or possibly Beginning Logic. In any case, we'll be suspending your poetic license until such time as you can prove you can use it responsibly and honestly.

--Jaylemurph

Spiderman is in New York soooo... 

Everyone hold on, I'm gonna find a spider and stick some radiation in it. 

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Whenever you are trying to decided whether an ancient location existed you can look at two main areas of information; written and archaeological.

If the archaeology says a city is there and the writing doesn't you believe the archaeology.

If the writing says a city should be there but the archaeology cannot find it - believe the archaeology.

A written source rarely if never over rides a physical find - and Plato's story mentions places and events that should leave archaeological traces-and yet they cannot be found.

 

 

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On 10/21/2020 at 11:10 PM, docyabut2 said:

yes:)

That's like I am fabricating a myth about the Third Reich as though it happened 8000 years ago instead of the actual 80 years ago, and everybody around me humming in agreement.

So according to you, docyabut2, these ancient Greeks were idiots?

 

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4 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

This week, sure, but next week you’ll be just as sure about somewhere completely different. 

—Jaylemurph 

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1 minute ago, jaylemurph said:

This week, sure, but next week you’ll be just as sure about somewhere completely different. 

—Jaylemurph 

I know I had a lot of theories:) but now to me the whole Atlantis story points to this lost civilization

https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/2500-year-old-city-buried-under-flood-sediment-may-belong-lost-civilization-020521

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I think it's quite possible Plato was influenced/inspired by stories he had heard; by events that historically happened and places that did exist.

Just as JK Rowling was influenced/inspired by the very real boarding schools and ancients castles that exist in the UK and stories about witches, dragons and magic.  

However, Atlantis and its inhabitants, as described, was as real as Hogwarts Castle and its inhabitants.


Edit:  And in that respect, docyabut2's ideas should not be dismissed out of hand.  She may, in some ways, be right.  As may be many others who offer other solutions to the "real" Atlantis.  

However, I do not believe Plato ever visited Florida (or anywhere in the Americas) so we shouldn't apply this to all suggested solutions  ;)  

Edited by Essan
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10 hours ago, Hanslune said:

Whenever you are trying to decided whether an ancient location existed you can look at two main areas of information; written and archaeological.

If the archaeology says a city is there and the writing doesn't you believe the archaeology.

If the writing says a city should be there but the archaeology cannot find it - believe the archaeology.

A written source rarely if never over rides a physical find - and Plato's story mentions places and events that should leave archaeological traces-and yet they cannot be found.

 

 

First of all, let me apologize for my lack of education. I certainly don’t pretend to be an expert in composition and logic. I finished high school and took about 36 hours of college courses. I study Atlantis as a hobby and I have developed a theory regarding the location of the island of Atlantis. I try to share this information with  others when I can. According to the answer Hanslune gave, I think I have both the archaeological evidence and the written evidence to support the theory that the island of Atlantis is in a certain location. Please take a few minutes and see if Plato’s description matches the archeological evidence. Take a look at the terrain and read Plato’s description. The first thing you will notice is that the island of Atlantis is triangular, not circular. That is in the description. Im sure you have your own sources but here is a link to Critias online.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/critias.html

The literature tells you that they bridged-over the three moats and dug three strait canals to form the island of Atlantis. I know it seems odd, but the literature matches the terrain. A partial moat and the hill that held the royal palace are still in place.

https://goo.gl/maps/XyjWctMX83cezTCQ9

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27 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

I know I had a lot of theories:) but now to me the whole Atlantis story points to this lost civilization

https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/2500-year-old-city-buried-under-flood-sediment-may-belong-lost-civilization-020521

Is there any evidence that there were elephants living in Iberia, or Tartessos if you prefer, back then?

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29 minutes ago, Rojack said:

First of all, let me apologize for my lack of education. I certainly don’t pretend to be an expert in composition and logic. I finished high school and took about 36 hours of college courses. I study Atlantis as a hobby and I have developed a theory regarding the location of the island of Atlantis. I try to share this information with  others when I can. According to the answer Hanslune gave, I think I have both the archaeological evidence and the written evidence to support the theory that the island of Atlantis is in a certain location. Please take a few minutes and see if Plato’s description matches the archeological evidence. Take a look at the terrain and read Plato’s description. The first thing you will notice is that the island of Atlantis is triangular, not circular. That is in the description. Im sure you have your own sources but here is a link to Critias online.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/critias.html

The literature tells you that they bridged-over the three moats and dug three strait canals to form the island of Atlantis. I know it seems odd, but the literature matches the terrain. A partial moat and the hill that held the royal palace are still in place.

https://goo.gl/maps/XyjWctMX83cezTCQ9

You are using a modern map of Tampa the shore line of which has been extensively re-aligned. Why don't you use old topographical maps before the adjustment of the shortline, filling in of swamps etc?

https://www.amazon.com/Tampa-Florida-1945-Topo-Topographical/dp/B01MG2PO45 You can click on this then the map to get a closer look.

A1NDkxv+B5L._SL1500_.jpg

1837

spfieldszz.jpg

 

Archaeological evidence would be the existence of massive amounts of pottery, stone tools, masonry, soil disturbance, metallurgical operations, quarries, burials and in the sediments clear indications of a large number of people in that area in year x - there is no such evidence.

 

 

Edited by Hanslune
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13 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Is there any evidence that there were elephants living in Iberia, or Tartessos if you prefer, back then?

The last mammoths are thought to have gone extinct in Europe around 10,000 BCE

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1040618204000837

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It was, of course, a rethorical question. But thank you for making it perfectly clear that there were no elephants in Docyabut's version of Atlantis.

These threads about Atlantis are tiresome and fun at the same time.

One of the Unexplained Mysteries...

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14 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

It was, of course, a rethorical question. But thank you for making it perfectly clear that there were no elephants in Docyabut's version of Atlantis.

These threads about Atlantis are tiresome and fun at the same time.

One of the Unexplained Mysteries...

It's like a zombie and just won't die. I have noted that a number of the 'professionals' among Atlantis believers have slowly been switching from believing it was really real to looking at trying to 'prove' which existing culture prior to Plato's or during his life time might have influenced him. Places in Sicily, Sardinia, Cadiz, etc., etc.

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On 10/16/2020 at 8:41 PM, Rojack said:

Yes, I know that Atlantis should be put to rest for a while. By the way, are there any questions about Atlantis you want answers to?

Yes, I have one.

How about those 'triremes' that the Atlantians were supposed to have used 9000 years before Plato, but were invented during the first millenium bce.?

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http://www.nbcnews.com/id/27827830/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/did-asteroid-cause-ancient-ny-tsunami/#.WP2Gtek2wzs

More than 2,300 years ago, a tsunami may have hit what is now New York City. The source of the giant wave, say geologists studying the sediments in nearby bodies of water, may have been a 330-foot-wide asteroid.

it could be around  the  same time ,  the 2,500-year-old city buried under flood sediment may belong to lost civilization in Spain ,Atlantis sunk. from a  tsunami to.

https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/2500-year-old-city-buried-under-flood-sediment-may-belong-lost-civilization-020521

where is the big flood that sunk Atlantis?

 

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4 hours ago, Hanslune said:

It's like a zombie and just won't die. I have noted that a number of the 'professionals' among Atlantis believers have slowly been switching from believing it was really real to looking at trying to 'prove' which existing culture prior to Plato's or during his life time might have influenced him. Places in Sicily, Sardinia, Cadiz, etc., etc.

Don't forget Threa. ;)

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There was probably an Atlantis, just in a place we have not, and will not be able to discover within out lifespan.

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