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bee

Group of doctors claim pandemic is a sham

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Setton
2 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

To a degree I agree with @kartikg, we have or should have been taught to wash our hands and do what it takes to keep bacteria and virus' at bay before this virus even showed up.  But I also agree with you that politicians should never push the scientist and doctors back and proclaim they know more.  It could end in a zombie apocalypse that thins the herd by killing off the stupid people, maybe that is the original goal, but unfortunately they will take a lot of others with them, and because of the way virus's work, they may end up being the ones who survive inspite of their stupidity.  I just see a Mad Max dystopia happening a lot sooner now.

I would agree with you that it's just natural selection in action. Unfortunately it's not just the stupid ones who die here, it's the ones they go on to infect.

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27vet
On 10/26/2020 at 12:20 AM, psyche101 said:

Some girls here did the same thing and brought Covid from southern states to northern states. You're a disgrace and should face a court of law. 

My travel was back in mid-March, there was no requirement for a mask then, social distancing had just begun which I adhered to. The point I wanted to make is that I did not catch the virus and simply by adhering to sensible social distancing and avoiding touching surfaces with a high probability of contamination. My other point is that today the virus is being used for political and financial gain, masks have yet to be proven to prevent the disease and every week scientists and politicians change their minds about how it is spread, how to treat it, or where it originated.

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OpenMindedSceptic
20 hours ago, the13bats said:

You are so right that does seem to be the stigma if you arent careless to the point of stupidity then you are living in fear, no happy middle ground,  this is one of those damned if you do damned it you dont scenarios.

Thank you! Boy is my face red and hats off to you for being the first to step up and clue me in on my confusion, yes, what you say makes perfect sense they do want to get deliberatly infected, if they die, if they take family friends with them they are good with that because they did it there way, no fear no regrets.

Thanks for pointing out they arent so blindly ignorant they call covid a fake or sham only a real dolt would do that they just dont care who dies including themselves, man, that is fearless.

Perhaps they could set up like a superspreader kissing booth at trump rallys seems a great place, you know to help pass it to others to further their cause and agenda.

 

 

 

Lovely rational argument. 

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OpenMindedSceptic
20 hours ago, psyche101 said:

file-20200430-42929-z92ok4.jpg?ixlib=rb-

Nice try.

Details per million per day by country.

It's a simple request. 

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stereologist
On 10/25/2020 at 4:04 AM, InconceivableThoughts said:

Ive googled how many healthy people die vs unhealthy and the difference is huge. Healthy people dying from covid is a anomoly. Like i said before its like someone being born with six fingers. Its dosent change to people are born with five or six fingers. Just like when a healthy person dies from this virus . My guess is that there is an underlying health problem that hadn't been detected before or even after the persons death.

Citation please. 

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stereologist
On 10/25/2020 at 4:11 AM, InconceivableThoughts said:

No they haven't. Cite

You were the one making the claim you provide the citation. The burden is on you to show that what you are posting is real. Until you do it is BS

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stereologist
On 10/25/2020 at 9:28 AM, OpenMindedSceptic said:

Pandemic? BS.

There is a virus. Lockdowns and facemasks do sweet nothing to stop it. 

The narrative is a crock of ****.

Yes there are tragic stories. That doesn't deter from the fact that there is no pandemic.

GGovernment politicking around the globe, now entrenched in the lie.

Fact is, every conceivable measure shows a steep rise followed by andropping level. Just like every other virus before it. 

Thee problem is the supermarket staff who have had numerous interaactuisn throughout the pandemic and no noticeable excessive deaths. Same for bar and restaurant staff. 

Even the rise now is that of a low level, normal, viral stats spread. 

There aren't overrun hospitals. Some are busy with near capacity but guess what, a few miles down the road, they are empty. In the UK, they had nightingale hospitals set up in record time and ZERO people admitted.

It is why the WHO is advocatimg NO lockdowns. They do nothing and are ineffective. So the led by science narrative is nonsense. The science is clear. Face masks and lockdowns don't work. 

The predicted figures of doom... guess what, never materialised. They were way out of whack by a factor of 10 to 15. And before you think, oh because the lovkdowns worked, I bring in Sweden... regardless of their v light interference, they too had v low incidence of covid. As did every other nation. 

And no nation anywhere has had a significant above average number of deaths. Intervention or no intervention. 

And before you think that means Only Sweden, start with Brazil too.

So give me the science that proves lockdowns and facemasks are a way forward.

More clueless opinion which is even dead wrong for the most part.

There is a pandemic and you might as well be another holocaust denier with this laughable malarkey you've posted.

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stereologist
On 10/25/2020 at 6:00 PM, OpenMindedSceptic said:

Only for operational reasons in a country, not to slow cases down. It doesn't slow them down. The WHO know it doesn't work, nor do those facemasks. 

That is false. It is more close minded scoffing.

Lock downs do work and have been used for a long time to prevent the spread of disease. It has been used for the cholera pandemics and it worked. It worked with the Spanish flu but the factory owners wanted their employees back in the cramped factories which is why the 2019 season was so deadly.

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stereologist
On 10/25/2020 at 8:16 PM, InconceivableThoughts said:

The term "risk vs reward" comes to mind. Im sorry I just dont think its serious enough to shutdown down the economy. In my mind the repercussions of shuting down will be worse then if we just implemented the face masks and social distancing without the shutdown . That is my opinion and while the numbers might not reflect my opinion ive said a million times the numbers are inflated and inaccurate(imo). The human race will survive this disease. Maybe thats where I'm going wrong....that is my bar for serious and not serious is out of whack....i used to play a game on my phone called pandemic or something along those lines. Its where you try to kill humanity with a virus evolving it to a point where it kills everyone.. I'm thinking that ruined me on what a serious and none serious disease is.

I dont know. I'm afraid my son has it. I'll be be going to the hospital tonight. Oh the irony.

Your claims of numbers being inflated is just you arguing from a position of personal ignorance. You have no idea what you are babbling on about, the medical experts do.

Here is some reading for you

https://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/939785?src=mkm_covid_update_201026_mscpedit_&uac=389284HY&impID=2640666&faf=1

Quote

Trump's remarks angered many medical groups and the clinicians they represent, healthcare workers who have endured increased personal risk and, in many cases, notable drops in income because of the pandemic — not to mention the high death rates of frontline healthcare workers. They also challenged Trump's assertion about how COVID deaths are counted in the United States.

Eva Chalas, MD, president of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG), and Maureen G. Phipps, MD, MPH, chief executive officer of ACOG, issued a joint statement accentuating the deaths of those in harm's way.

"Science is science and data are data. Doctors have no reason to make up or to inflate COVID-19 case numbers," they said. "In fact, many physicians and other healthcare workers have died from the virus. It is irresponsible and dangerous to suggest that doctors, including obstetrician-gynecologists, have done anything other than bravely battle this pandemic on behalf of their patients and their communities."

Are you just repeating what Trump the idiot has been spouting?

 

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psyche101
4 hours ago, 27vet said:

My travel was back in mid-March, there was no requirement for a mask then, social distancing had just begun which I adhered to. The point I wanted to make is that I did not catch the virus and simply by adhering to sensible social distancing and avoiding touching surfaces with a high probability of contamination. My other point is that today the virus is being used for political and financial gain, masks have yet to be proven to prevent the disease and every week scientists and politicians change their minds about how it is spread, how to treat it, or where it originated.

Ok, apologies for the chastising, that's fair enough. 

However...

I don't agree that masks don't work. I honestly feel that's just being an ahole for the sake of it. Wether there is political or financial gain doesn't change the fact that the rest of the world is responsible for this pandemic. Large corporations taking advantage, or politicians doesn't stop the virus, it doesn't increase it. 

That's up to us. If we all do our bit, everyone benefits. The absolute pricks who feel everyone should be at risk because their inept little brains want to fight the system are only undermining what the majority are trying to accomplish, they are using politics as fear tactics to make others think dat ebil gubbermint is after us all. They aren't important, the government only gives those aholes due derision because they deserve it. I don't care what my government thinks about masks, I do it because socially it is the right thing to do. Anti social aholes who want to make noise are always looking for something like this to make a noise and get people to look at them. 

The people who I am seeing are against masks are more politically inclined IMHO. Trumps belittling of the pandemic has made a lot of stupid people even stupider. If you are against political gain, wear a mask. 

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stereologist
On 10/26/2020 at 2:52 AM, OpenMindedSceptic said:

The WHO are clear. They do not want lockdowns. They couldn't even think of reasons to lockdown. Go and read it again.

As for masks. They have been extensively proven to NOT work. Go and look at the evidence. It is just one reason that many operating theatres do not wear masks any longer. They pose more risk than not wearing one. Zero impact on the rate of infections in every country they have been introduced in. Check the dates and graphs of infection.

Setton you are quoting the media. Go and ask questions first. Then seek evidence.

Stop believing everything you are spoon fed.

That is not what WHO stated. You really should read what they stated and fix your mistake.

Please provide evidence for this rather dumb lie: "They have been extensively proven to NOT work." That's a really dumb lie. It is hilarious it is so dumb.

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psyche101
2 hours ago, OpenMindedSceptic said:

Nice try.

Details per million per day by country.

It's a simple request. 

It's a valid chart. Are you saying those figures are incorrect?

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stereologist
On 10/26/2020 at 3:59 AM, stevewinn said:

If there was a vaccine that could protect 99.6% of the population people would say open up the economy and get back to normal.

Well we have it already. It’s called the human immune system.

 

 

 

Not true at all. This is a laughable BS piece.

Let's see what is happening in the UK

https://news.yahoo.com/coronavirus-antibodies-may-rapidly-fade-150134155.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9zZWFyY2gueWFob28uY29tLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAJXInAgd09RQg6VBCYfkVaRDEeqaQo21bDv9piuBo6ATE1VVKaIcEKMu2bEb6c1bKXPXSkeeZVDtDRJ8NXQq9WOTRfhPQzHWRjmod_CV0twePlpe2unWB4uNEVtvGDXKHMAI3BD8skN9OgKlTUpDyzKA6KWuNlazdMRTUTPYjQAa

Quote

The presence of coronavirus antibodies dropped by more than a quarter in England in the space of three months this summer, a new large-scale study found. The authors suggest their results may indicate that immunity to the virus within the general population also rapidly faded after the first wave of the pandemic.

Scientists at Imperial College London found that the share of people who tested positive for antibodies to COVID-19— part of the body's defense against re-infection — fell by 26.5% from June to September: from 6.0% of the population to 4.4%.

The exact relationship between antibody presence and immunity to the coronavirus remains unclear. Although the presence of antibodies suggests a person is likely immune to the virus, that's not the only indicator, and a lack of antibodies in someone who was previously infected may not necessarily mean they've lost their protection.

According to an August study, other layers of protection against reinfection, most notably T cells, are likely also critical in the body's long-term immunity.

 

Nonetheless, the authors of the Imperial report suggested that falling levels of antibody prevalence could indicate falling population immunity, given evidence from other human coronaviruses.

The evidence is that this is not the case but more evidence needs to be gathered.

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Tiggs
3 hours ago, OpenMindedSceptic said:

Nice try.

Details per million per day by country.

It's a simple request. 

Then it should be simple for you to cite it.

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bee

 

source (google)

quote..

What is the definition of a pandemic?

A pandemic is defined as “an epidemic occurring worldwide, or over a very wide area, crossing international boundaries and usually affecting a large number of people”. The classical definition includes nothing about population immunity, virology or disease severity.

By this definition, pandemics can be said to occur annually in each of the temperate southern and northern hemispheres, given that seasonal epidemics cross international boundaries and affect a large number of people. However, seasonal epidemics are not considered pandemics.

end quote...


I think this is where the confusion lies over questioning the Pandemic Status given to Coronavirus / Covid 19 / SARS-CoV-2...

Clearly this particular coronavirus has spread all over the world - but was it just a 'seasonal epidemic' that as stated above, isn't considered a pandemic ...... ? even though it 'crossed international boundaries and affected a large number of people..?

If the seasonal epidemics were defined as pandemics we would be having 'pandemics' every year...

And if there was the amount of testing done on every seasonal outbreak like there has been for this one... would the numbers of cases be comparable - bearing in mind that cases discovered by testing include people who are showing no symptoms and who are not ill or unwell.. 

???

 

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Setton
17 minutes ago, bee said:

 

source (google)

quote..

What is the definition of a pandemic?

A pandemic is defined as “an epidemic occurring worldwide, or over a very wide area, crossing international boundaries and usually affecting a large number of people”. The classical definition includes nothing about population immunity, virology or disease severity.

By this definition, pandemics can be said to occur annually in each of the temperate southern and northern hemispheres, given that seasonal epidemics cross international boundaries and affect a large number of people. However, seasonal epidemics are not considered pandemics.

end quote...


I think this is where the confusion lies over questioning the Pandemic Status given to Coronavirus / Covid 19 / SARS-CoV-2...

Clearly this particular coronavirus has spread all over the world - but was it just a 'seasonal epidemic' that as stated above, isn't considered a pandemic ...... ? even though it 'crossed international boundaries and affected a large number of people..?

If the seasonal epidemics were defined as pandemics we would be having 'pandemics' every year...

And if there was the amount of testing done on every seasonal outbreak like there has been for this one... would the numbers of cases be comparable - bearing in mind that cases discovered by testing include people who are showing no symptoms and who are not ill or unwell.. 

???

 

So a disease which has existed for less than a year is now seasonal, despite peaks in spring and winter.

Sure....

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bee

 

The World Doctors Alliance web page...

https://worlddoctorsalliance.com/

An independent non-profit alliance of doctors, nurses, healthcare professionals and staff around the world who have united in the wake of the Covid-19 response chapter to share experiences with a view to ending all lockdowns and related damaging measures and to re-establish universal health determinance of psychological and physical wellbeing for all humanity.


one of the articles under the 'news' headline features a Dr Michael Yeadon...

Dr Mike Yeadon has a degree in biochemistry and toxicology and a research-based PhD in respiratory pharmacology. He has spent over 30 years leading new medicines research in some of the world’s largest pharmaceutical companies, leaving Pfizer in 2011 as Vice President & Chief Scientist for Allergy & Respiratory. That was the most senior research position in this field in Pfizer. Since leaving Pfizer, Dr Yeadon has founded his own biotech company, Ziarco, which was sold to the worlds biggest drug company, Novartis, in 2017.

TWITTER THREAD HERE

What SAGE Has Got Wrong

 

on his Twitter thread he puts forward the data / argument that (in UK) the Pandemic is essentially over and herd immunity threshold reached..

(click on the tweet to see it bigger on Twitter site...)
 

 

IMO.... herd immunity was being built up at the end of last year (when I think I had it - and my Mom - and when it swept through the town where I live in the Midlands...)

In a way we were lucky round here that it started and happened at the end of last year (Oct / Nov / Dec)....and early 2020.. before lockdowns could slow it down - and prolong and drag out the whole process... I was spared the stress and anxiety that people getting it now (the tail end of the seasonal epidemic / pandemic...?)......... have to go through...... I was pretty ill but just went through it and got over it like I would any virus although it was probably the nastiest virus I've ever had (that I can remember)...

You won't see any official back up for what I've said above but having talked to lots of people about it round here - I think that's what happened..

 

I don't worry about catching it - and I'm pretty confident that my Mom who is 87 probably has immunity as well... I go along with all the government guidelines anyway and Mom is in a Care Home -

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bee
15 minutes ago, Setton said:

So a disease which has existed for less than a year is now seasonal, despite peaks in spring and winter.

Sure....

 

different viruses and influenza peak and drop in seasonal epidemics - not the same one over and over again...
so this 'new' variety of coronavirus is no different from the seasonal epidemics just because it's considered new...

???

 

 

Edited by bee
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Setton
29 minutes ago, bee said:

 

different viruses and influenza peak and drop in seasonal epidemics - not the same one over and over again...
so this 'new' variety of coronavirus is no different from the seasonal epidemics just because it's considered new...

???

 

 

Except you can't conclude it's seasonal because we haven't been through the seasons yet.

And sticking question marks at the end of every post to try and pass it off as speculation doesn't make your misinformation any less damaging or idiotic.

Edited by Setton
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bee
5 minutes ago, Setton said:

Except you can't conclude it's seasonal because we haven't been through the seasons yet.

 

you could say the same about the pandemic conclusions / status..... ???

 

 

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Setton
12 minutes ago, bee said:

 

you could say the same about the pandemic conclusions / status..... ???

 

 

No, because the definition of a pandemic has nothing to do with the seasons.

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psyche101

A video posted by a European-based group called World Doctors Alliance falsely claims the novel coronavirus is “a normal flu virus”

 

An 18-minute video announcing the group’s formation was posted on the ACU2020 website but has since been taken down by YouTube for violating its terms of service. Still, portions ofthe video featuring two doctors challenging the science behind the pandemic are circulating on Facebook with false assertions and statistics.

Staking out the group’s position, Elke De Klerk, a Dutch general practitioner, says on the video, “We do not have a pandemic” and calls COVID-19 a “normal flu virus” – claims flatly rejected by the WHO, CDC, and other experts.

De Klerk claims the pandemic designation was based on poor testing, with the polymerase chain reaction, or PCR, molecular test returning false positive results in “89 to 94%” of the cases. That’s not true.

While the false positive rate remains an area of continued examination, preliminary studies show the test’s false positive rate is far less than De Klerk claims. A recent article in the British medical publication The Lancet Respiratory Medicine, said estimates in the U.K. place the false positive rate in the 0.8 to 4% range, while false negatives could run as high as 33%.

As for the virus that causes COVID-19, scientists universally agree it is a novel coronavirus, SARS-CoV-2, not a strain of influenza.

While the death rate for COVID-19 remains uncertain, as we have reported, evidence suggests it is higher than for seasonal influenza.

In De Klerk’s own country, the Netherlands, there have been more than 6,800 deathsattributed to COVID-19 so far this year, compared to 2,900 due to flu and pneumonia in 2018-19.

In the U.S., where COVID-19 has caused more than 220,000 deaths, the worst flu season in the past decade killed an estimated 61,000 people in 2017-18, as we’ve reported. In fact, COVID-19 so far has killed more people in the U.S. than the past five flu seasons combined, and hundreds more die each day.  

In addition, a CDC study released Oct. 20 found hospitalized patients with COVID-19 in the Veterans Health Administration had a five times higher risk of death than patients with the flu.

The other speaker in the video circulating on Facebook is Dolores Cahill, a professor at the medical school at the University College Dublin in Ireland. Cahill, who has become something of a lightning rod as a COVID-19 denier, claims on the video that there have only been 98 deaths in Ireland due to the coronavirus since April.

But according to Ireland’s Central Statistics Office, more than 1,800 people have died of COVID-19 in the country, all but 200 since April.

And with cases on an upswing, the Irish government announced Oct. 19 that it was imposing tough new restrictions to slow the spread of the disease. The measures, which will last until at least Dec. 1, require all non-essential retail businesses, barbers, hairdressers, and salons to close and ban gatherings in homes. Restaurants and pubs will be limited to takeout and delivery service.

Cahill has found herself under fire from both her university, which issued a statement disassociating itself from her views, and the European Union, which asked her to resign from an EU medical panel.

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psyche101
stereologist
On 10/26/2020 at 12:08 PM, OpenMindedSceptic said:

And present something you can idly sit back and dismiss.

Let me suggest a starting place. 

Check the deaths per million rate by country and overlay the introduction of lockdowns and facemasks. Show me the curve doing anything other than dissipating and I will have to rethink.

Nice easy and simple request. 

I will even donate $50 to a charity linked with respiratory disease if you prove me wrong.

Sound fair? 

I suggest  you learn how to measure a pandemic in progress. Your measure "deaths per million rate by country" is a bad measure until AFTER the pandemic is over.

Here is more illogical claptrap from you "and overlay the introduction of lockdowns and facemasks". 

That does not do anything but add in a multitude of confounding factors which make your suggestion a pile of manure.

So please learn how to measure pandemics and also how to determine if a make and lockdowns are effective.

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stereologist
On 10/26/2020 at 2:13 PM, OpenMindedSceptic said:

FFS.

Those are the wrong graphs.

What you need to look at is the deaths per million per country per day.

The number of cases (whatever that means, let's argue later on this) will rise due to a sorts of reasons, most of which have sweet nothing to do with live covid.

The deaths per million per country will prove that masks and lcokdown have zero impact. 

Grab those, and then let's chat.

Again you are using the wrong measures of a pandemic. Your measures are dead wrong to use until the pandemic is over.

The appropriate measures are the CFR and IFR. 

 

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