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Still Waters

Was Jesus a magician?

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eight bits

The contrary view was advocated by Morton Smith of Columbia (probably even more famous as the discoverer of "Secret Mark," searchable) in his classic book, Jesus the Magician.

I wouldn't bet the farm on the wand thing. Putting aside that some gods and royals did have wands, as an artistic choice it's an obvious visual device to lead the viewer's eye from the agent (e.g. Jesus) to the object (loaves & fishes, Lazarus's tomb, etc.). Otherwise, you've got a guy standing next to a pile of food or a box with another guy inside. Whether it's a realistic portrait of a working ancient magician may not be relevant to the question.

Early Christians aren't the only ones with a vote here. Good for them if they think their boy's a god, but Mark alludes to different views about the sources of Jesus's apparent powerz as early as his own supposed lifetime. Some serious people interpret one of the theories reported in Mark as a belief that Jesus kept a familiar spirit (the Baptist's as it happens).

We know from Celsus that some people thought Jesus was a charlatan as early as the late second century, and Pliny the Younger early in the second century described as superstition whatever he heard from the Christian slaves he coercively questionned. There's practically nothing for or against Christianity from Pilate's to Pliny's time except devotional literature and "improved" Josephus, so who knows what anybody thought about Jesus's performances during that three generation span?

I like the livescience site, but this ain't science, dead or alive. Good find all the same. Brava.

 

Edited by eight bits
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XenoFish

Christianity does promote faith based thaumaturgy.

https://religion.wikia.org/wiki/Thaumaturgy

 

Edited by XenoFish
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Davros of Skaro

If we're going by old images then Jesus was a sheep herder before waving wands.

https://aleteia.org/2019/05/12/three-of-the-oldest-images-of-jesus-portrays-him-as-the-good-shepherd/

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psyche101

Apparently that's true. Stewie built a time machine to find out himself.

 

 

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Rlyeh

How about just a charlatan?

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Rolltide

 

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Abramelin
On 10/19/2020 at 2:55 PM, Still Waters said:

Ancient art throughout the catacombs of Rome, painted on the walls and carved into stone coffins, shows Jesus as he multiplies loaves of bread, heals the sick and brings the dead back to life. These images are unified by one surprising element: In each of them, Jesus appears to brandish a wand. That led scholars to wonder: Did ancient Christians see Jesus as a magician? 

Despite these evocative images, most evidence suggests early Christians didn't see Jesus as a magician. Magic was considered a purely human pursuit that could not raise the dead, whereas Jesus' supernatural acts were always seen by believers as miracles performed through a powerful God. What's more, the "wand" carried by Jesus was in fact not a wand —magicians of the day never carried wands anyway, experts told Live Science. 

Still, magic was very much alive during the period of early Christianity.

https://www.livescience.com/was-jesus-a-magician-wand.html

There was a known magician during Jesus' time. He - later - was never being depicted carrying a wand:

Simon Magus

 

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FFA

Jesus was a God not a magician. Big difference. 

That being said. What is interesting is Jesus's relationship to water.

He walked on water.

He turned water into wine.

He was master of the sea.

When the Roman soldier stabbed Him in his side on the cross blood and water come out.

There many more examples. Including the idea of water and baptism.

A very interesting piece of scripture is De

Ezekiel 28:2  Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

Why is the seat of God in the middle of the sea?

Looking on down at verse 8,

They shall bring thee down to the pit, and thou shalt die the deaths of them that are slain in the midst of the seas. 

Who are these that are slain in the seas?

Last but not least is II Peter 3

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 

4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue* as they were from the beginning of the creation. 

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

The world that overflowed was his kingdom. At some point I expect him to return and restore what was lost. 

I'm kinda hopping soon. Maybee a global pandemic, economic collapse, and cites will all collapse and then things will really start to speed up. I'm getting impatient. 

Annuit coeptis right.

 

 

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jmccr8
3 hours ago, FFA said:

Annuit coeptis right.

Hi FFA

jmccr8

 

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and then

People idolize anything or anyone that can perform "miracles".  This is why most people on earth during the time of the antichrist will be deceived.  He will have power to do miraculous things.  

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Rlyeh
On 12/18/2020 at 4:55 PM, and then said:

People idolize anything or anyone that can perform "miracles".  This is why most people on earth during the time of the antichrist will be deceived.  He will have power to do miraculous things.  

Just like those before him.

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XenoFish
On 12/18/2020 at 1:25 AM, and then said:

People idolize anything or anyone that can perform "miracles".  This is why most people on earth during the time of the antichrist will be deceived.  He will have power to do miraculous things.  

What's so different from then to now? Because it's the same horse and pony show. 

It has been a week since I walked on water, I'm not bragging about it.

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Abramelin
On 12/18/2020 at 7:25 AM, and then said:

People idolize anything or anyone that can perform "miracles".  This is why most people on earth during the time of the antichrist will be deceived.  He will have power to do miraculous things.  

Found him!

 

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DieChecker

Interesting read...

My first thought was that the "wand" was a ray, or beam, to indicate the moving of power.

The articles deduction it represents a staff, and authority, also rings true to me.

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