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docyabut2

George Floyds case and trial

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Agent0range
2 minutes ago, Hugh Mungus said:

If Waters had denounced the violence and called for peace the comparison would have been apt. 

You mean if she called for peace AFTER the non-existent violence?  That would have been apt.

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the13bats
1 hour ago, Agent0range said:

You mean if she called for peace AFTER the non-existent violence?  That would have been apt.

 in st marmalade messiahs case there was tons of violence and deaths.

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Michelle

:rolleyes:

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DieChecker
9 hours ago, Gromdor said:

Oh anyone can appeal and often do.  Chauven has really good reasons (including the Maxine Water's one) to file for one.  I'm just saying that the rate of appeals being granted are extremely low (10%) and it is further complicated by the fact that the appellate judges in Minnesota are elected and have to answer to constituents that have firmly set beliefs regarding this matter.

Edit to add:  It seems that the defense would base the appeal along the lines of a "Mistrial" because of the political statements not because of any disputes over the facts.  

10% is 10%. Most everyone wants that to be 0%, but its possible. 

Waters should have kept her mouth shut. I kind of hope she does get a spank for it.

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OverSword

Judge says that Rep. Waters may cause entire Chauvin case being overturned

 

 

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susieice
Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Judge says that Rep. Waters may cause entire Chauvin case being overturned

 

 

I just saw on Court TV. They had attorneys talking about this, even Derschowitz, who is still talking. The jury was aware that their verdict could cause their homes and businesses to burn and riots would happen. They knew how cities had prepared for the worse. They had mentioned what she said during deliberations. Court TV also mention Al Sharpton. I don't know what he said. Even the $27 million settlement. This whole show is a real shame. 

He has a lot of points for appeal and the judge talking now is black. They are talking about the Blakely Hearing. That starts next week. They think the judge will seriously look at the mitigating factors the prosecution presented. The opinions are that jurors should be sequestered now from moment of selection. But some of this came out before this jury was picked and just continued through the whole trial.

It won't completely overturn the case but it could cause a mistrial to be declared. They get to do this all over again if that's the case.

In the event of a mistrial, the defendant is not convicted, but neither is the defendant acquitted. An acquittal results from a not guilty verdict and cannot be appealed by the prosecution, overturned by the judge, or retried. When there is a mistrial, however, the case may be retried.
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

Edited by susieice
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susieice
Posted (edited)

They're talking about the other 3 officers who will be tried together in August. Two had less than a week on the job. One of those is black/ mixed race. I'm not getting into this right now. I'm thinking Court TV may be carrying this live also.

Edited by susieice

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spartan max2
14 minutes ago, susieice said:

They're talking about the other 3 officers who will be tried together in August. Two had less than a week on the job. One of those is black/ mixed race. I'm not getting into this right now. I'm thinking Court TV may be carrying this live also.

Hopefully the two officers who had less than a week on the job don't get charged with anything.

They were being trained ffs 

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susieice
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Hopefully the two officers who had less than a week on the job don't get charged with anything.

They were being trained ffs 

Court TV just said third degree murder charges may be added to them because of Chauvin's case. This will be decided in a hearing before the appellate court on May 20 from what they're saying. The one, Lane, kept saying Floyd should be rolled over and was ignored by the senior officer. His attorney will certainly present this.

Edited by susieice
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Desertrat56
Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Hopefully the two officers who had less than a week on the job don't get charged with anything.

They were being trained ffs 

When I was in the army part of our training was knowing what was a legal command and we were told to never obey an illegal command.  They were fully grown men and they knew (based on their weak objections) that what was going on was wrong and when it comes to their job, number one should be to protect and serve, not watch someone be killed.   Any one of the three could have knocked Chauvin in the head and got him off of Floyd.  If it took all 3 of them to stop him that's what should have been done.  Common sense, common decency and all those other "commons" that are so rare need to be taught apparently.  It is a sick society we live in and those two probies were just as culpable as the seasoned officers.  In my opinion not only should they be convicted of a crime they should never be allowed to be police officers anywhere.

Edited by Desertrat56
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spartan max2
Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

When I was in the army part of our training was knowing what was a legal command and we were told to never obey an illegal command.  They were fully grown men and they knew (based on their weak objections) that what was going on was wrong and when it comes to their job, number one should be to protect and serve, not watch someone be killed.   Any one of the three could have knocked Chauvin in the head and got him off of Floyd.  If it took all 3 of them to stop him that's what should have been done.  Common sense, common decency and all those other "commons" that are so rare need to be taught apparently.  It is a sick society we live in and those two probies were just as culpable as the seasoned officers.  In my opinion not only should they be convicted of a crime they should never be allowed to be police officers anywhere.

I think that's unrealistic expectations for most people a week in their job.

If the person training you says how he is apply a technique is okay than you aren't really going to object. Because you're probably not certain enough yourself.

Edited by spartan max2
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Desertrat56
1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

I think that's unrealistic expectations for most people a week in their job.

If the person training you says how he is apply a technique is okay than you aren't really going to object. Because you're probably not certain enough yourself.

No that's not true, if your training officer after you have completed the academy tells you something that is wrong and you know it is wrong, you don't condone it just because you are new.    They were heard expressing concern but either they were more fearful of Chauvin or they really weren't that concerned.  They have to take responsibility for that.    That kind job has no place for weak minded sheep.

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spartan max2
3 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

No that's not true, if your training officer after you have completed the academy tells you something that is wrong and you know it is wrong, you don't condone it just because you are new.    They were heard expressing concern but either they were more fearful of Chauvin or they really weren't that concerned.  They have to take responsibility for that.    That kind job has no place for weak minded sheep.

Agree to disagree. 

To me it's an unreasonable expectation for someone that green.

But alas, the courts will decide.

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ouija ouija
36 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

No that's not true, if your training officer after you have completed the academy tells you something that is wrong and you know it is wrong, you don't condone it just because you are new.    They were heard expressing concern but either they were more fearful of Chauvin or they really weren't that concerned.  They have to take responsibility for that.    That kind job has no place for weak minded sheep.

 

32 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Agree to disagree. 

To me it's an unreasonable expectation for someone that green.

But alas, the courts will decide.

The bottom line is . . . pretty much everyone over the age of 16 knows pressure on the neck will eventually kill a person(I'm just amazed Floyd's neck wasn't broken!). So we have to presume that the two men on their first week on the job knew that Chauvin was taking Floyd's life. We humans are in a pretty sorry state if we will let a life be taken just because we won't stand up to 'authority'. If they were that 'green' and weak they had no business to be in the police force.

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Aaronsmom
1 hour ago, susieice said:

Court TV just said third degree murder charges may be added to them because of Chauvin's case. This will be decided in a hearing before the appellate court on May 20 from what they're saying. The one, Lane, kept saying Floyd should be rolled over and was ignored by the senior officer. His attorney will certainly present this.

Lane did not “keep saying” Floyd should be rolled over. When Mr. Floyd first said he couldn’t breathe, Lane meekly asked Chauvin if they should move Mr. Floyd onto his side. Chauvin said “No” and that was it. Lane did not ask or suggest it again. That counts as aiding and abetting.

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susieice
2 minutes ago, Aaronsmom said:

Lane did not “keep saying” Floyd should be rolled over. When Mr. Floyd first said he couldn’t breathe, Lane meekly asked Chauvin if they should move Mr. Floyd onto his side. Chauvin said “No” and that was it. Lane did not ask or suggest it again. That counts as aiding and abetting.

Hopefully Court TV will be live airing the trial from the courtroom and I'll see what's presented.

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DieChecker
Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

No that's not true, if your training officer after you have completed the academy tells you something that is wrong and you know it is wrong, you don't condone it just because you are new.    They were heard expressing concern but either they were more fearful of Chauvin or they really weren't that concerned.  They have to take responsibility for that.    That kind job has no place for weak minded sheep.

Problem is....

If one of the new guys jumps Chauvin after, say, four minutes, and Floyd lives, he just struck a superior officer. Floyd lives, and this doesn't make the News. New guy, with just his word versus veteran, is fired, or goes to jail. Chauvin only has to say, "I wasn't going to kill him.", and new guy is toast.

This would be the case right up to where Floyd died. And then after that, what will it matter, Floyd is dead and hes going to be blamed by association anyway.

Tell me, honestly, since I'm a Army vet also, if you disobeyed an order, would there not be a heap of pain coming from the NCOs. You bet there would. Being right isn't always the easy way, and so it takes guts and fortitude if you are going to do it in a situation like this.

I dont blame either of those new guys. I do think the other veteran cop should have acted somehow.

I got told to do push-ups for 10 minutes when I refused to let the reinvestment NCO sign me up for a 2nd enlistment. Disobeying people with power over you is a big risk. One that could put you in prison, or the hospital.

Edited by DieChecker
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the13bats

Remember in the movie a "Few good men" when Downey couldnt grasp why they were booted out with dishonor etc but Dawson grasp it, only too late they failed as marines, they failed their brother Santiago.

To me its a same type idea here any other officer who was there and did nothing failed Floyd, failed the people they were hired to protect, people can spew about them being green or cowards all they desire but it changes nothing in my eyes.

Dont think for one moment i dont know the world of hell the other LEO at the Floyd scene would have encountered had they stood up and done anything but sometimes in life a person has to cowboy up and make a stand.

If a person never stands for anything and just makes excuses how can the face the mirror?

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ouija ouija
42 minutes ago, the13bats said:

Remember in the movie a "Few good men" when Downey couldnt grasp why they were booted out with dishonor etc but Dawson grasp it, only too late they failed as marines, they failed their brother Santiago.

To me its a same type idea here any other officer who was there and did nothing failed Floyd, failed the people they were hired to protect, people can spew about them being green or cowards all they desire but it changes nothing in my eyes.

Dont think for one moment i dont know the world of hell the other LEO at the Floyd scene would have encountered had they stood up and done anything but sometimes in life a person has to cowboy up and make a stand.

If a person never stands for anything and just makes excuses how can the face the mirror?

Plus, there were onlookers/witnesses to the event who(I would hope), would speak out loudly in support of an officer going against Chauvin.

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Desertrat56
9 hours ago, DieChecker said:

If one of the new guys jumps Chauvin after, say, four minutes, and Floyd lives, he just struck a superior officer. Floyd lives, and this doesn't make the News. New guy, with just his word versus veteran, is fired, or goes to jail. Chauvin only has to say, "I wasn't going to kill him.", and new guy is toast.

I doubt the rookies were thinking along those lines.   AND he would not have been in trouble, it would have been an incident investigated and if the IA was rational it would have been proven that Chauvin was at fault, not the rookie.  

Based on this you sound like a conspiracy theorist claiming that it was all planned so that it would get in the news and be a big deal.  Well, it is a big deal and it has been going on a long time, so now there is attention on it, however I doubt it was any one's plan that this specific case be the big red flag.   It just happened that way and all 4 officers are culpable.

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Myles
10 hours ago, DieChecker said:

Problem is....

If one of the new guys jumps Chauvin after, say, four minutes, and Floyd lives, he just struck a superior officer. Floyd lives, and this doesn't make the News. New guy, with just his word versus veteran, is fired, or goes to jail. Chauvin only has to say, "I wasn't going to kill him.", and new guy is toast.

 

I agree.  They should have stepped up and stopped him but I understand why they were reluctant.  Starting a new job does that to people.   I recently started a new job (in Jan) and I tow the company line still because I need to earn my way.  With the cops being union, seniority is everything.  

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the13bats
17 hours ago, ouija ouija said:

Plus, there were onlookers/witnesses to the event who(I would hope), would speak out loudly in support of an officer going against Chauvin.

I thought about that after i made that reply, the crowd already were in the mindset chauvin was going too far, imnsho had a rookie LEO knocked chauvin off Floyd the bulk of the crowd would have had rookies back.

An investigation would have taken place Floyd would very highly likely still be alive and its possible chauvin would be in jail,

But this wasnt a first for him it was a go to, just his first victim  thankfully lived.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/doj-derek-chauvin-2017-arrest-14-year-old-boy-report

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toast
On 4/22/2021 at 10:19 PM, spartan max2 said:

I think that's unrealistic expectations for most people a week in their job.

Thats a dangerous statement because we are not talking about guys who are on the training to sell vegetables but guys who are allowed by law to use deadly force in case of need. There is no, and there cannot be, any room for mercy for the bystanding officers. Any one of them could have prevented Floyd's death, even by an unlawful act like knocking Chauvin out during his action. Ah, yes, the lawsyadyada. But, from a moral point of view, can any law be above the moralic task to save a human life and/or to avoid the loss of a human life? The life of an individual that does not pose any kind of threat to the life and integrity of others? The answer is quite clear.

The bystanding officers are guilty of aiding and abetting and must be punished accordingly. In addition, they must be barred from the police service for the rest of their lives because they have proven that they do not have the necessary moral awareness thats mandatory to perform such a responsible job for the good of the citizens. Furthermore, also this case is a very sad proof (again) that the whole recruitment/training/selection process for police officers in the US is deficient at a very high degree. I dont say that all cops over there are bad but the share of Gestapo minded sadists in uniform seems to be fact. 

Quote

If the person training you says how he is apply a technique is okay than you aren't really going to object. Because you're probably not certain enough yourself.

See above.

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DieChecker
On 4/23/2021 at 7:16 AM, Desertrat56 said:

I doubt the rookies were thinking along those lines.   AND he would not have been in trouble, it would have been an incident investigated and if the IA was rational it would have been proven that Chauvin was at fault, not the rookie.  

Based on this you sound like a conspiracy theorist claiming that it was all planned so that it would get in the news and be a big deal.  Well, it is a big deal and it has been going on a long time, so now there is attention on it, however I doubt it was any one's plan that this specific case be the big red flag.   It just happened that way and all 4 officers are culpable.

I only ment to toss out a "what if" that very well could have run through any, or all, of their minds while Floyd was dying.

Its easy to demand what people should have done in retrospect, but hard to understand what they were actually thinking at the time. And why. Clearly at least one of the three thought Chauvin was going too far, but their didn't act. Why they didn't act will be a big part of the trial I think.

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susieice

The Blakely hearing opened today. The prosecution filed their points and the defense submitted their rebuttal. Chauvin will only be sentenced for the 2nd degree murder charge and since he has no prior arrest record, is now looking at a sentence of 12 1/2 years.

https://www.fox29.com/news/state-files-request-for-aggravated-sentence-for-derek-chauvin?utm_campaign=trueanthem&utm_medium=trueanthem&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR0oGTmDcKtwHTweNlvON-rub5AZ_JbB0PsZ7uer90K2EexyF77VW-eFUE0

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