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Hankenhunter

Biden's student loan relief plan

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Hankenhunter

I think it's a hell of a good idea. Read the whole article before you post.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/10/23/biden-proposes-forgiving-10000-in-student-debt-for-public-service.html?utm_source=fark&utm_medium=website&utm_content=link&ICID=ref_fark

Edited by Hankenhunter
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spartan max2

No mention on where the money would come from. 

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Hankenhunter
29 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

No mention on where the money would come from. 

Hopefully from the bloated military budget. Besides, working for the community to pay off student debt is a win win because all the money goes back into the economy. Things like fixing roads, painting aging infrastructure, to keeping our communitues clean. That's just the tip of the iceberg.Unlike the skinflint money hoarding billionaires. The same ones who got your country hooked on oxycodone.

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Tatetopa
1 hour ago, spartan max2 said:

No mention on where the money would come from. 

Priorities.

We import doctors we import engineers and scientists.  Maybe it would be good for the national economy and national defense to foster home grown STEM  and medical graduates.  Put it with the need for infrastructure, and take a hard look at whjere we already spend money.

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bmk1245

college-trades.jpg

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Hankenhunter
14 minutes ago, bmk1245 said:

college-trades.jpg

You do know that Joe had to go to school as part of his apprenticeship? Ah, who am I kidding. You didnt even read the article.

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Michelle

144 hours in four or five years.

Apprenticeship Program Information

In total, apprenticeship programs usually last for 4 to 5 years. According to the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics, electrician apprenticeship programs include a minimum of 144 hours of classroom learning, along with 2,000 hours of paid on-the-job training yearly, under the supervision of a master electrician.

Classroom topics may include the following:

  • Electrical theory
  • Safety practices
  • Blueprint reading
  • Soldering
  • Communications

https://study.com/articles/Electrical_Apprenticeship_Programs_Options_and_Requirements.html#:~:text=Electricians need at least a,start at 16 years old.

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Tatetopa
19 minutes ago, bmk1245 said:

college-trades.jpg

Jim is the guy whose parents pay for college, He or his parents can continue to pay to play. 

I really like Joe on the right there working hard and doing a good job.  And you hit on the key.  He had a paid apprenticeship. and supported himself while he learned.   It should be that way for doctors, engineers, and scientists.

If old Joe had to pay $80,000 to learn to be a lineman, he might still be driving a forklift on a loading dock for $12 an hour.

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bmk1245

Look, folks, I do understand there is the problem. But what about financially responsible? Those who worked their arses out to put their kids through college without debt? Will they get reimbursement?

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Michelle

Tennessee has a program that pays for two years of community college. If they make it through that, with decent grades, the credits are transferred to any four year college they can get in.

Or they can take a practical course that takes two years to complete.

Edited by Michelle
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Tatetopa
26 minutes ago, bmk1245 said:

Look, folks, I do understand there is the problem. But what about financially responsible? Those who worked their arses out to put their kids through college without debt? Will they get reimbursement?

I did that. My wife and I put our son through college with no debt.  He had to go to a junior college for two years and live at home to save expense.  I worked until I was 69 years old to do it.  

What did I get out of it?  A son with a degree in computer science, married and buying a house.    I won't lose that no matter  how many future kids go for free.

Do I expect reimbursement, no I got value for what I did.  I won't feel bitter or cheated if some future students get free tuition from the state or federal government. It will still make the society I live in more prosperous.

So you think working your **** off is a bad thing?  It has its own rewards.  Some day I may be treated by a skilled doctor whose parents could not pay for a medical education.  That is a pretty good payback.

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Kenemet
50 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Jim is the guy whose parents pay for college, He or his parents can continue to pay to play. 

A lot of us worked our way through our degrees with no parents paying for them.  This is particularly true of any advanced degrees (that you need to become scientists, etc.)

Quote

I really like Joe on the right there working hard and doing a good job.  And you hit on the key.  He had a paid apprenticeship. and supported himself while he learned.   It should be that way for doctors, engineers, and scientists.

Part of the university system is student assistants... very low paying, part-time jobs.  Even when we're doing very valuable research.  And *that* is because the professors can only pay from grant money and the government isn't very forthcoming with grants these days.

Sorry if I sound obnoxious, but I worked very hard to pay for those degrees and I really dislike this meme that miscategorizes everything.

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spartan max2

The wealthy upper class and upper middle class families don't care about tax increases because a new tax doesn't really effect their standard of living. Which is what universal college would lead too, a new tax on our paychecks. (Not Biden's OP proposal but we all know what the debate is going to continue to be about).

A new tax would have to be made. That everyone will have to pay for the rest of their lives. Universities will gladly raise tuition again because why not? They will get paid.  Loan forgiveness never tackles the problem of making colleges charge less for tuition in the first place. 

Those who got free college from their parents already won't care because they didn't have to sacrifice anything.

Meanwhile the rest of us who chose cheaper colleges and worked to pay our tuition will now be slapped with a tax for the rest of our lives to pay for people who decided to go to expensive private schools and people who dropped out after two years or got pointless degrees. 

 

Edited by spartan max2
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Sir Wearer of Hats
1 hour ago, bmk1245 said:

Look, folks, I do understand there is the problem. But what about financially responsible? Those who worked their arses out to put their kids through college without debt? Will they get reimbursement?

Do they get reimbursed now?

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bmk1245
32 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

I did that. My wife and I put our son through college with no debt.  He had to go to a junior college for two years and live at home to save expense.  I worked until I was 69 years old to do it.  

What did I get out of it?  A son with a degree in computer science, married and buying a house.    I won't lose that no matter  how many future kids go for free.

Do I expect reimbursement, no I got value for what I did.  I won't feel bitter or cheated if some future students get free tuition from the state or federal government. It will still make the society I live in more prosperous.

So you think working your **** off is a bad thing?  It has its own rewards.  Some day I may be treated by a skilled doctor whose parents could not pay for a medical education.  That is a pretty good payback.

Kudos!

As for skilled doctors, I don't think they'll have problems to pay loans

Quote

The mean salary of a doctor in the United States is $294,000/year according to a Medscape Report.

(link)

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bmk1245
10 minutes ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Do they get reimbursed now?

Don't know.

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Kenemet

You'd be surprised.  It takes a lot of time to work up to that kind of pay.  Meanwhile, those loans (4 years undergrad, 4 years med school plus extra for specialty) keep earning interest.  And those doctors also have to pay for their business (clinic office, staff, insurance, etc, etc.)

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Sir Wearer of Hats
35 minutes ago, bmk1245 said:

Don't know.

Then why does it matter how they”re going to be reimbursed by this plan?

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Hankenhunter
54 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

The wealthy upper class and upper middle class families don't care about tax increases because a new tax doesn't really effect their standard of living. Which is what universal college would lead too, a new tax on our paychecks. (Not Biden's OP proposal but we all know what the debate is going to continue to be about).

A new tax would have to be made. That everyone will have to pay for the rest of their lives. Universities will gladly raise tuition again because why not? They will get paid.  Loan forgiveness never tackles the problem of making colleges charge less for tuition in the first place. 

Those who got free college from their parents already won't care because they didn't have to sacrifice anything.

Meanwhile the rest of us who chose cheaper colleges and worked to pay our tuition will now be slapped with a tax for the rest of our lives to pay for people who decided to go to expensive private schools and people who dropped out after two years or got pointless degrees. 

 

Not if the money is taken from the military. If the military wants the cream of the crop, then they'd better start investing in them before they sign up. Mind you the fines that Trump et al are facing after the election would probably pay for it. :whistle:

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Hankenhunter
34 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

You'd be surprised.  It takes a lot of time to work up to that kind of pay.  Meanwhile, those loans (4 years undergrad, 4 years med school plus extra for specialty) keep earning interest.  And those doctors also have to pay for their business (clinic office, staff, insurance, etc, etc.)

Now imagine if those doctors were able to pay their loans off by community medical work, such as drug education, homeless care, elderly care, just off the top of my head. I hope Canada is paying attention. I should email my MLA and float it past him. Just voted today so it may take a week. You could call it a community apprenticeship. 

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spartan max2
5 minutes ago, Hankenhunter said:

Now imagine if those doctors were able to pay their loans off by community medical work, such as drug education, homeless care, elderly care, just off the top of my head. I hope Canada is paying attention. I should email my MLA and float it past him. Just voted today so it may take a week. You could call it a community apprenticeship. 

Primary care physicians already get 50k in loan forgiveness when they work in an "underserved" area for 2 years.

https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/loans/student-loans/medical-school-loan-forgiveness-programs#:~:text=In addition to state-based,a Health Professional Shortage Area.Q

I knew this off the top of my head because the clients I work with on Medicaid lose their primary care doctor every 2 years.

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bmk1245
42 minutes ago, Kenemet said:

You'd be surprised.  It takes a lot of time to work up to that kind of pay.  Meanwhile, those loans (4 years undergrad, 4 years med school plus extra for specialty) keep earning interest.  And those doctors also have to pay for their business (clinic office, staff, insurance, etc, etc.)

Residents get paid over $60k (link). Not a bad start, isn't it?

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Tatetopa
4 hours ago, Kenemet said:

A lot of us worked our way through our degrees with no parents paying for them.  This is particularly true of any advanced degrees (that you need to become scientists, etc.)

Quote

I really like Joe on the right there working hard and doing a good job.  And you hit on the key.  He had a paid apprenticeship. and supported himself while he learned.   It should be that way for doctors, engineers, and scientists.

Part of the university system is student assistants... very low paying, part-time jobs.  Even when we're doing very valuable research.  And *that* is because the professors can only pay from grant money and the government isn't very forthcoming with grants these days.

Sorry if I sound obnoxious, but I worked very hard to pay for those degrees and I really dislike this meme that miscategorizes everything.

Thanks for that.  I commented on my son, and I did a similar thing.  I worked summers and during the school years, I worked on the dish crew and in a geology lab on Saturdays and some Sundays. 

When I went to Rice, tuition was $1500 dollars a year and room and board was about $800.   I could make about $2.25  on the dish crew or in the geology lab analyzing samples.  I got a tuition scholarship and  my father paid half of room and board.   Better ratios than a student sees today.

Some people think all students are Ivy League and out parents footed all the cost so they feel free to criticize us, but we worked just as hard as Joe in the picture bmk1245 posted.

I don't see as much respect for study, hard work, and knowledge as there was a generations ago.  There seems to be a real equalizing movement these days in which people want to feel that  reading their favorite site on the internet is equivalent to investigation and research into a topic.  They  think they know all they need to know about the complexities of the world.  To be fair, some young people enter college more for the social experience than the learning and they might matriculate as unwise as they are unchanged.

If it makes any difference to you, I am happy for whatever portion of my tax dollars goes to all of those grants, and I would be happy if it was more.  Our culture is rich and worth exploring, understanding and preserving.  Thanks for your part.  Mine might have been mundane and duller on the whole, but I kept things running and progressing just as much as Joe on the power pole.   

A mature respect for each other and our different contributions might get us further than  distrusting and despising anyone different from ourselves.

 

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Tatetopa
4 hours ago, bmk1245 said:

As for skilled doctors, I don't think they'll have problems to pay loans

Small towns in the US are hurting for doctors.  A plastic surgeon or a general surgeon in a big city  does exceed that rate, bu ta small town doctor does not.  That is why many small town pay medical tuition in exchange for a doctor practicing 2-4 years in their community.  Many others get their medical professionals from East Asia. 

$60k does not seem like so much when you are working 60-70 hours a week and owe $500-750 K in loans.

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Tatetopa
5 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

A new tax would have to be made. That everyone will have to pay for the rest of their lives. Universities will gladly raise tuition again because why not? They will get paid.  Loan forgiveness never tackles the problem of making colleges charge less for tuition in the first place. 

Those who got free college from their parents already won't care because they didn't have to sacrifice anything.

Meanwhile the rest of us who chose cheaper colleges and worked to pay our tuition will now be slapped with a tax for the rest of our lives to pay for people who decided to go to expensive private schools and people who dropped out after two years or got pointless degrees. 

You seem to be picking the worst case possible.

There is money in our budget that gets spent for other things.  There are taxes and sources of revenue that would not need to be stuck on the middle class.

There is the ability to offer a  position at a less expensive state school and not at expensive private schools.

The problem of college tuition can still be tackled.

Not every kid is oblivious to the sacrifices their family makes to get them to college.

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