Life After Lost Civilization

[Thanos5150]

Luxor, 19th century:

Today:

 

Karnak:

 

 

Kom Ombo:

 

 

Just a few examples for reference as to the state in which much of Egypt was found in modern times. Ruined and buried sometimes as much as 15-20ft. 

The Temple of Kom Ombo was built in the Ptolemaic Period between 180-47BC, a little more than 2,000yrs ago, yet look at the state in which it was found in the 19th century. Ruined and buried more than halfway up its columns. Luxor and Karnak, with construction lasting from the MK though the Late Period found 2,000yrs later buried more than halfway up their columns leaving the vast majority of these complexes completely obscured. By the Roman period, and perhaps long before, so much sand and debris had accumulated at Giza they apparently were unaware the Sphinx temple was even there. 

All over ancient Egypt we see the state in which these monuments were found in modern times in various states of ruin being partially or even completely buried under sand and debris. And this is often just after 2,000yrs. There are some, however, who believe these monuments were built by a lost civilization thousands of years before the beginning of Dynastic Egypt which we can only imagine the state the ancient Egyptians would have found them leaving it a wonder after so much time had passed they could have found much of them at all. 

Look again at this photo:

 

The AE would have found Luxor, for example, after thousands of years even more buried than this which given the different climates of the ages waxing and waning from desert to savanna some of the layers would have been hard pack dirt not just sand. With perhaps the tip of the obelisk poking out of the ground, all of this would have been completely buried:

 

So if in fact this was built by an LC thousands of before the Dynastic Egypt, the AE would have found it all but completely buried with barely the tops of the obelisks sticking out of the ground-assuming they were even still standing. If we accept such things were built by the LC so long ago, this means the AE would have had to have excavated this entire site for square miles all the way around to get it to its original floor level which would have included all roads to the site. Yet after thousands of years -what state did they find the structures? Something similar to Kom Ombo if not worse:

So after completing the massive excavation project, the AE would have started the daunting task of repairing and rebuilding the site. Restacking columns. Resetting lintels some 50ft in the air. Lifting back up an obelisk or two. Yet much of these blocks were damaged requiring the AE to quarry new blocks to spec and install them in the place of their damaged ancient counterparts. 

From one end of the Nile to the other, for 3,000yrs, the AE set upon the unimaginable task of excavating site after site. Repairing and rebuilding one ancient structure after another. Billions of cubic yards of earth and sand they removed to clear site after site to floor level. Millions of tons of stone they moved to rebuild complex after complex-restoring toppled walls, erecting columns, setting fallen lintels. How many tons of repair block were they required to quarry, dress, move and install all to appear no different than the original blocks that at that time we are told were already thousands if not tens of thousands of years old.  

The AE do not speak at length about pyramid building-fair enough. But where are all the tales of their excavating countless sites up and down the Nile for 3,000yrs restoring the great civilization of the "Lost Ones"? Where did all the untold billions of cubic yards of dirt, sand, and debris go that is otherwise indistinguishable from the natural surroundings today? To look at Giza, after thousands of untold years, the Sphinx, temples, and mastaba fields etc. etc. would have completely disappeared under countless feet of dirt and sand yet the 4th-6th Dynasty AE somehow cleared it all to floor level. 

If all of these things were built by the LC thousands of years before the Dynastic Egyptians-how do we explain this? How were the AE able to excavate site after site after site moving untold billions of tons of earth and sand and repairing each site all but good as new?

[Wepwawet]

It's not only the temples, it's also a case of where were these "ancient ones" buried. No substantial settlement has yet to be found older than at Abydos, about 7,000 years old, and this is not the remains of an older, and more "advanced" civilization, but clearly the beginnings of what became Dynastic Egypt. Even going by the fantasy that these "ancient ones" had advanced tools and somehow disposed of them so that not even the smallest trace can be found, they, if they existed, would still have died and needed to be buried. You bury a body in Egypt and if it does not become waterlogged or removed by later people for whatever reason, it will survive a very long time. But, no burials of "advanced" peoples, not one, only primitive burials such as "Ginger", or are we to believe that these "ancient ones" had very advanced stone working tools, but were buried in little more than a scrape in the ground with crude mats and pots. Ah, of course, cremation, all of them were cremated and all traces of cremation removed in order to, er, fool us thousands of years in the future, yeah, that'll be it.

[Oniomancer]

Obviously an ancient version of the mudflood coverup conspiracy.

[Thanos5150]

5 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

It's not only the temples, it's also a case of where were these "ancient ones" buried. 

Here's another one for you. Only the LC could build these monuments because, of course, the AE let alone any other known ancient culture could not do such things. Namely they were unable to cut igneous rock-granite, diorite, etc. Its too hard. Harder than beating Harte in a limerick contest. Other than Darkseid's Omega Beams, there is little in the universe that could have cut granite until the invention of steel, but just as long as they didn't use it to cut massive igneous blocks like the Indians of India, then no it must have been made by the LC too. A story for another time. Anyhoo, this is fantastic because while we may not be able to find their burials at least we know what the looked like:

Apparently the LC is where the cankle gene comes from. 

Countless such LC statues found by the AE. The most amazing thing is how the AE were able to find a statue, many statues in the case of pharaohs, of a different LC person for each AE person. For 3,000yrs. What luck is that? 

More good news is that we can also use the statues to date the LC by the depictions of animals: 

Domesticated cow:

Domesticated dog:

Domesticated cat:

Hawk humping a man in the back of the head:

Uhh...

So not only did the LC make all of these amazing monuments but they also domesticated cows, dogs, cats among others so we know they were around at least when that happened which excluding dogs would have been sometime after the magic date of 10,500BC.  

[Wepwawet]

Onionmancer got it with the Cylon reference, which of course may not be obvious as not everybody saw or has any interest in the re-boot of Battlestar Galactica, where an "ancient civilization" rose, crashed and rose again, and just who the hell were Baltar and Caprica as I never worked it out.

But going by what the fringe says about these statues it does seem that the "Ancient Ones" fell, without leaving any trace except these statues, which were then used as a template for how the primitives who followed on should dress and what they should believe and how they should write. And on writing, I wonder if the fringe could explain why we see Old Egyptian in the PT and other places in the OK, then Middle Egyptian and then Late, yet these "ancient" statues have a mix of Old, Middle and Late Egyptian. How can the Apis Bull statue have Late Egyptian inscriptions if it was made thousands of years before even the introduction of basic hieroglyphs found at Abydos. Then there's the Serapeum sarcophagi, oh sorry, brewing vats or batteries or god knows what else is fashionable.

[Thanos5150]

22 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

But going by what the fringe says about these statues it does seem that the "Ancient Ones" fell, without leaving any trace except these statues, which were then used as a template for how the primitives who followed on should dress and what they should believe and how they should write. And on writing, I wonder if the fringe could explain why we see Old Egyptian in the PT and other places in the OK, then Middle Egyptian and then Late, yet these "ancient" statues have a mix of Old, Middle and Late Egyptian. How can the Apis Bull statue have Late Egyptian inscriptions if it was made thousands of years before even the introduction of basic hieroglyphs found at Abydos. Then there's the Serapeum sarcophagi, oh sorry, brewing vats or batteries or god knows what else is fashionable.

Part of this is also that one of the reasons the AE could not have done these things is the primitive way they dressed-how can you build a pyramid without shoes-and yet here we have proof they were just following the example set by the LC.   

It is interesting how you can have evidence of later AE on a specific LC era claimed by earlier AE, but not the other way around. Truly amazing how everything worked out.   

[Wepwawet]

1 hour ago, Thanos5150 said:

Part of this is also that one of the reasons the AE could not have done these things is the primitive way they dressed-how can you build a pyramid without shoes-and yet here we have proof they were just following the example set by the LC.   

It is interesting how you can have evidence of later AE on a specific LC era claimed by earlier AE, but not the other way around. Truly amazing how everything worked out.   

What I don't like is the contempt that they hold the AE in, yet they know hardly anything about them. Bring up the ostraca from Deir el-Medina and there are the equivalent of blank stares. Discuss  the evolution of burial practices and coffins and you may as well be discussing avian neurobiology or the workings of 15th Century Florentine society. Discuss what was happening in the Thinite/Abydos area and it's the same blank stares, except some gibberish about the Osireion because they know nothing and understand nothing. There are certainly mysteries and things to discuss, and disagree on, but with Ancient Egypt there is the continous sound of the marching band of clowns with trumpets blaring, horns honking, whistles whistling and manical laughter. I guess I'm being arrogant and should pity them, but, nah.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Wepwawet
typo

[Hanslune]

4 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

What I don't like is the contempt that they hold the AE in, yet they know hardly anything about them. Bring up the ostraca from Deir el-Medina and there are the equivalent of blank stares. Discuss  the evolution of burial practices and coffins and you may as well be discussing avian neurobiology or the workings of 15th Century Florentine society. Discuss what was happening in the Thinite/Abydos area and it's the same blank stares, except some gibberish about the Osireion because they know nothing and understand nothing. There are certainly mysteries and things to discuss, and disagree on, but with Ancient Egypt there is the continous sound of the marching band of clowns with trumpets blaring, horns honking, whistles whistling and manical laughter. I guess I'm being arrogant and should pity them, but, nah.

You are correct and I have found that by simply acknowledging that they believe the GP to function as [place favorite pyramid theory here]. I love to ask them what its near twin G2 is? I get some very fun responses to that one!

its a spare  [place favorite pyramid theory here] is a not unusual one.

[Thanos5150]

22 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

What I don't like is the contempt that they hold the AE in, yet they know hardly anything about them. Bring up the ostraca from Deir el-Medina and there are the equivalent of blank stares. Discuss  the evolution of burial practices and coffins and you may as well be discussing avian neurobiology or the workings of 15th Century Florentine society. Discuss what was happening in the Thinite/Abydos area and it's the same blank stares, except some gibberish about the Osireion because they know nothing and understand nothing.

If you know the AE had nothing to do with these things then what is the point of getting to know them? Do the Deir el-Medina ostraca mention the Ancient Ones or describe how to build a pyramid? Do any of these burials and/or coffins contain Ancient Ones and/or have evidence of LC advanced technology?  

Isn't it weird though that the LC stone sarcophagi first found in the OK emulate the palace facade Serekh building design of their early Dynastic wooden counterparts and yet there are no stone sarcophagi found in these earlier times? So the AE of the 2nd Dynasty, for example, saw these LC stone sarcophagi and made wood sarcophagi in homage, but it never occurred to them until the OK to just go ahead and use them instead. Or mention this fact or incorporate it into their religion. Or better yet, being granite these OK Serekh building sarcophagi could only be built by the LC meaning the Serekh building itself must belong to the LC. Where are they? And the examples of the Serekh building, the 1st Dynasty mastabas, are made of mud brick-were these made by the LC too? Palace façade mud brick architecture is first found in Mesopotamia some 7,000yrs ago, but if this is modeling after things the LC built then where are they? Or wait a minute-is it possible the Mesopotamians are the LC? Nah.  

Quote

There are certainly mysteries and things to discuss, and disagree on, but with Ancient Egypt there is the continous sound of the marching band of clowns with trumpets blaring, horns honking, whistles whistling and manical laughter. I guess I'm being arrogant and should pity them, but, nah. 

Ignorance can be overcome. Willful ignorance not so much. Ancient history is complex and requires effort, i.e. lots of reading, to understand beyond the level of popular consumption media. This holds true for both sides of the isle. I get it that this level of commitment and/or wherewithal is not for everyone nor is it required to participate in these discussions. Not the point. The problem, on both sides of the isle, because for many this is not a search for truth but rather a mission to protect one's ideological "truth", is when information that contradicts one's beliefs is provided it is ignored and/or argued against for merely the purpose of creating doubt for doubts sake to protect one's bias and/or not have to acquiesce to the opposition which by default is viewed as admission their own beliefs may be wrong which apparently is bad.

 

       

[Wepwawet]

It's the lack of breadth of knowledge that weighs heavily against the bulk of the fringe. Some do know more than that this big pile of stones exists at Giza, but many cannot go beyond that. It sounds arrogant I know, but it doesn't take the brains of an archbishop to see the severe limitations of fringe discussions. Why an archbishop should be brainy I don't know, it's just a saying.

As an example of fringe limitations, I have seen a "discussion" where it is proposed that KV62 in it's entirety is a sort of fake, including the mummy of Tutankhamun. This is not a modern fake, as some of the fringe believe, but that it is a "diversion" pointing to the "true location" of the "real" Tut, I think, but it's not so easy to grasp what exactly is being proposed as it changes on a regular basis. The reason for the changes is that the author of this nonsense knew that KV62 existed and that Tutankhamun was buried there, but knew nothing of the rest of the Amarna saga. Crucially he had no idea of the DNA testing that links Tut by blood to the KV55, KV35, KV21 and KV46 mummies. He had proposed that the KV62 mummy was not Tut, but was completely nonplussed when shown that if KV62 was not Tut, then who were the occupants of the other tombs. He even admitted that he knew nothing of those tombs and relevant mummies, but then decided that they were all "fakes", five generation of fakes back to Yuya and Thuya buried to make it seem that Tut's mummy was real. Madness, and there are other aspects where he obviously knew nothing of the gods or burial customs. Tight focus on something he knew a tiny bit about, and the rest just made up ad hoc as reality was presented to him, to no avail. But this is no different to how it goes with G1, the Great Sphinx, Serapeum and Osireion.

So, I know you put the origins of the AE, or at least the "dynastic overlords", I think, as being from Mesopotamia, but I don't view that as particularly fringe, after all, the Egyptians' domestic cattle and date palms came from Mesopotamia. There's more work to be done, mostly contentious of course, such as an explanation of "Ginger" and kin, who don't seem particularly Egyptian, Mesopotamian, or even Semitic. A DNA test would be helpful, but I'm not holding my breath on that.

Ignorance can of course be overcome, and when younger I read Daniken and others and thought they were onto something, and only later realized it was money. I read a book by an author I cannot now remember the name of, who postulated, very well I thought at the time, that the Grand Gallery was some sort of record of events, but it was all twaddle. It would be great if everubody who was interested in the AE would read decent books dealing with the reality, but if they do, it's often just a coffe table book on Tut or G1, lots of nice pictures and a bit skimpy on fact. The internet, which could be a good means of education, and in some places it is, has in fact made it easy to be lazy and just watch a video on youtube, and hey presto you are an instant "expert", and of course wiki with it's odd editing, which we saw some months back.

I don't have a position to defend, only in that the obvious nonsense is obvious. It's fine to argue if a pyramid was a tomb or not, or who KV55 and otgers are by name, but it's not okay to engage publicly, without being confronted, in nonsense about "helicopters" at Abydos, "Crookes tubes" at Dendera, "brewing vats" at the Serapeum, "seed vaults" or "power plants" at G1, or the mummy of Tutankhamun being a fake. IMO, these are fake positions to take, and to confront them is not defending a position, with the implication it could be right or wrong, but of confronting, in some cases, lunacy totaly divorced from reality. Whether or not the AE originate in Mesopotamia is a subject that can be argued coherently for or against, as is the identity of KV55, but to argue about G1 being a power plant is utterly futile as there is no rational argument for it.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Wepwawet

[Thanos5150]

3 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

It's the lack of breadth of knowledge that weighs heavily against the bulk of the fringe. Some do know more than that this big pile of stones exists at Giza, but many cannot go beyond that. It sounds arrogant I know, but it doesn't take the brains of an archbishop to see the severe limitations of fringe discussions. Why an archbishop should be brainy I don't know, it's just a saying.

For those who participate in these forums, say here and GHMB as the examples I know of, while it is understandable some may start ignorant it is inexplicable to remain so.  

Quote

So, I know you put the origins of the AE, or at least the "dynastic overlords", I think, as being from Mesopotamia, but I don't view that as particularly fringe, after all, the Egyptians' domestic cattle and date palms came from Mesopotamia. 

I have not made either claim per se', the story is a lot more nuanced than that, but have noted for context the two specific punctuated periods of Mesopotamian influence, which do appear to have directly affected the formation of the Dynastic state, as well as earlier migrations and continuing contacts from the Levant. This is hardly "fringe" but rather part and parcel of Egyptology and our understanding of predynastic (and continuing) populations of Egypt and the formation of the Dynastic state. Regarding Mesopotamia, there is no debate over whether this influence occurred with the question being how direct and to what extent it was which the evidence to me seems quite clear both periods included Mesopotamians being physically present in Egypt comprising an integral part of the formation of the Dynastic state. 

For convenience:

Population History of Egypt

Prehistoric Egypt

Egypt–Mesopotamia relations

Quote

Whether or not the AE originate in Mesopotamia is a subject that can be argued coherently for or against, as is the identity of KV55, but to argue about G1 being a power plant is utterly futile as there is no rational argument for it.

I would stress that I, nor any Egyptologist, characterize their origins as being "Mesopotamian", but rather "Ancient Near Eastern" which should be understood is separate from the later finite periods of pre/early Dynastic Mesopotamian influence. 

[Thanos5150]

19th Century Egyptian Photography of Francis Frith (1822-1898)

 

[Thanos5150]

Karnak: 

 

[Tatetopa]

Maybe I am seeing a parallel where I shouldn't.  This thread reminds me of the genealogy thread I just scanned minutes ago.. 

Some people want to dig back in family history and find they are related to ancient kings or nobility, it somehow gives them a sense of grandeur. 

On a larger scale, being descended from a high tech lost civilization gives us a better pedigree I suppose.

Who wants to be descended from struggling humans with boils and lice, getting hot and thirsty, going hungry sometimes, dressing funny and still managing to have a rich religious tradition and build great monuments?  It seems so pedestrian.

If that lost civilization was such hot stuff how come they couldn't hack it and did not survive?

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

Good stuff, @Thanos5150

[Thanos5150]

22 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Maybe I am seeing a parallel where I shouldn't.  This thread reminds me of the genealogy thread I just scanned minutes ago.. 

Some people want to dig back in family history and find they are related to ancient kings or nobility, it somehow gives them a sense of grandeur. 

On a larger scale, being descended from a high tech lost civilization gives us a better pedigree I suppose.

Who wants to be descended from struggling humans with boils and lice, getting hot and thirsty, going hungry sometimes, dressing funny and still managing to have a rich religious tradition and build great monuments?  It seems so pedestrian.

If that lost civilization was such hot stuff how come they couldn't hack it and did not survive?

There are many unanswered questions which I do not see have been adequately explained as of yet with equally viable alternative possibilities that on balance would significantly change our understanding of human origins and the rise of civilization. The problem though, focusing on Egypt for example, is we know enough to limit the possibilities of what the missing answers could be which unfortunately does not include a 12,000+ year old LC. This thread illustrates a very common sense approach, just one of many, as to the practicality of why this could not be the case and if one is to still believe in such things then these are the types of realities that need to be answered for. 

[Nobu]

What does “AE”stand for? Sorry I’m not an Egyptologist.

[Thanos5150]

43 minutes ago, Nobu said:

What does “AE”stand for? Sorry I’m not an Egyptologist.

Ancient Egyptians. 

[Nobu]

6 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

Ancient Egyptians. 

Thanks. I feel stupid now. Sometimes I’ll stare at a chess puzzle for 20 minutes and give up… then feel this silly when I see the 5 move solution. Should have figured that out.

[Thanos5150]

3 minutes ago, Nobu said:

Thanks. I feel stupid now. Sometimes I’ll stare at a chess puzzle for 20 minutes and give up… then feel this silly when I see the 5 move solution. Should have figured that out.

No worries. Not an Egyptological term just forum slang. 

DE= Dynastic Egyptians. 

LC=Lost Civilization. 

[Hanslune]

On 6/23/2021 at 8:35 PM, Thanos5150 said:

No worries. Not an Egyptological term just forum slang. 

DE= Dynastic Egyptians. 

LC=Lost Civilization. 

I believe the term IC = Invisible Civilization is the more cooler and more proper term. The fringe believes in it but has not evidence it existed - so it is not lost - for they feel they have found it, yet but it remains unseen, i.e., invisible.

[Thanos5150]

33 minutes ago, Hanslune said:

I believe the term IC = Invisible Civilization is the more cooler and more proper term. The fringe believes in it but has not evidence it existed - so it is not lost - for they feel they have found it, yet but it remains unseen, i.e., invisible.

Can't say I have heard that one. So, like Wonder Woman's plane kind of invisible? Or imaginary friend kind of invisible? 

[Hanslune]

52 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

Can't say I have heard that one. So, like Wonder Woman's plane kind of invisible? Or imaginary friend kind of invisible? 

Well we both see good fringe folks insisting that 'someone' else built the pyramids, etc.,  but for some odd reason there just any any evidence of this civilization laying about like we find for all other civilizations. We would 'see' it as invisible and imaginary, they as real but, er, ah, just missing or being hidden from them.

[Thanos5150]

[Antigonos]

3 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

I love old archaeological photos. Can’t get enough of them.