Khufu's Boats-How Did They Get There?

[Hanslune]

11 minutes ago, Megaro said:

Didn't Vyse find what was believed to be an iron plate in one of the GP's air shafts?

You may be referring to this:

http://www.catchpenny.org/iron.html

Quote

In 1837, Colonel Howard Vyse, with the assistance of two civil engineers (John Perring and James Mash), investigated the air shafts in the King's Chamber of the Great Pyramid described by George Sandys more than 200 years earlier. A man in Vyse's team, J.R. Hill, was put in charge of clearing the mouth of the southern shaft. Vyse's methods were not subtle, and the use of explosives was employed resulting in the vertical gash that can still be seen on the south side of the pyramid. On Friday, 26 May 1837, after a few days of blasting and clearing, Hill discovered a flat iron plate about 26 cm (10.2") long, 8.6 cm (3.4") wide, with a thickness ranging from .4 cm (.2") to nearly zero. The plate weighs about 750g. Vyse proclaimed it to be "the oldest piece of wrought iron known." Hill affirmed that his find was legitimate:

 

This is to certify, that the piece of iron found by me near the mouth of the air-passage, in the southern side of the Great Pyramid at Gizeh, on Friday, May 26th, was taken out by me from an inner joint, after having removed by blasting the two outer tiers of the stones of the present surface of the Pyramid; and that no joint or opening of any sort was connected with the above-mentioned joint, by which the iron could have been placed in it after the original building of the Pyramid. I also shewed the exact point to Mr. Perring, on Saturday, June 24th. (Vyse, Pyramids of Gizeh, I, p. 276)

Edited June 22, 2021 by Hanslune

[Wepwawet]

54 minutes ago, Thanos5150 said:

Hence why I say this is Affifi Rohim’s (Chief Inspector of Giza, Ministry of State for Antiquities) "claim" noting in my opinion "they sure look like copper or bronze" as despite his confidence I find it hard to believe.  Rohim says:

”Here is something very important; for the first time we found that the ancient Egyptians used ‘iron’…in the Old Kingdom. Most archaeologists will say that the ancient Egyptians didn’t use ‘iron’ in the Age of…in the pyramids [?] of the Old Kingdom. And we didn’t  find any ‘iron’ in any other boats in Egypt; even in the first boat. But, here in the second boat, we find ‘iron’…”

If true this of course is amazing. If not true, equally amazing is how someone in Rohim's position, not just the MSA but on this project, could make such a spectacular blunder. 

A clearer photo:

Well I agree that Rohim is being quite unequivocal about these fittings being iron, though in the slide he shows, just the word "metal" is used. It's also quite clear in the video, this new photo you post, and the photo from Yoshimura in the book I mentioned, that, as you say, we are looking at copper/bronze. It cannot be said that he has made a slip of the tounge three times in a row either. Maybe when found in situ he thought in error that they were iron, and that idea has taken root in his mind despite the evidence of his eyes, it happens. Until you posted that video I had not heard a peep about iron being found in the second boat pit, so I guess the error was realized a few years back, otherwise it would, should, have been a major story.

[Wepwawet]

1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

I knew a fine fellow who was always claiming/stating copper and bronze was 'iron' and or a copper iron alloy. Why he would always do so I cannot imagine but I took to carrying around a small magnet to dissuade him of such tangents.

Use of Arabic to describe metals. In my experience the use of the proper terms for iron 'Hadid' is not always followed and sometimes they used the term filz (metal or metallic in English) to mean any type of metal the default being more common to iron. It is possible this could be leading to a translation error - either that or he is just wrong. Specifically they should use Nuhas or Albranz for copper or bronze but sometimes filz was used.

 

He just got it wrong, but why he thought something covered in verdigris was iron is a mystery.

[Windowpane]

2 hours ago, Wepwawet said:

He just got it wrong, but why he thought something covered in verdigris was iron is a mystery.

I think what Hans meant, though, was that sometimes the wrong term is used, without the foreign language speaker necessarily realising it.

So Rohim likely knew it was copper, and probably meant to say "copper:" but it came out as "iron."

[Wepwawet]

35 minutes ago, Windowpane said:

I think what Hans meant, though, was that sometimes the wrong term is used, without the foreign language speaker necessarily realising it.

So Rohim likely knew it was copper, and probably meant to say "copper:" but it came out as "iron."

Yeah, I get that, the problem is the context in which Rohim said iron.

I'll swap the word iron for metal in the quote Thanos used from the video dialogue.

”Here is something very important; for the first time we found that the ancient Egyptians used metal…in the Old Kingdom. Most archaeologists will say that the ancient Egyptians didn’t use metal in the Age of…in the pyramids [?] of the Old Kingdom. And we didn’t  find any metal in any other boats in Egypt; even in the first boat. But, here in the second boat, we find metal…”

The dialogue makes no sense if he really meant metal, as they had been using metal, in the form of copper and bronze, for a long time before Khufu. The dialogue would be even odder if he had said copper or bronze. I think he really did mean iron because he had made a howling error, and is why this story of "iron" in the second boat pit never took off.

[Hanslune]

That is also possible but I meant that the Arabic speakers I worked with tended to use the term metal and that could mean bronze, copper or iron depending on the circumstance and a if  they wrote that down another native speaker might translate it into iron or something else.

[Earl.Of.Trumps]

Good thread, thanks for reviving it.

[Thanos5150]

26 minutes ago, Wepwawet said:

Yeah, I get that, the problem is the context in which Rohim said iron.

I'll swap the word iron for metal in the quote Thanos used from the video dialogue.

”Here is something very important; for the first time we found that the ancient Egyptians used metal…in the Old Kingdom. Most archaeologists will say that the ancient Egyptians didn’t use metal in the Age of…in the pyramids [?] of the Old Kingdom. And we didn’t  find any metal in any other boats in Egypt; even in the first boat. But, here in the second boat, we find metal…”

The dialogue makes no sense if he really meant metal, as they had been using metal, in the form of copper and bronze, for a long time before Khufu. The dialogue would be even odder if he had said copper or bronze. I think he really did mean iron because he had made a howling error, and is why this story of "iron" in the second boat pit never took off.

Indeed. In the context of his statements he clearly believes it is iron.  

”Here is something very important; for the first time we found that the ancient Egyptians used copper…in the Old Kingdom. Most archaeologists will say that the ancient Egyptians didn’t use copper in the Age of…in the pyramids [?] of the Old Kingdom. And we didn’t  find any copper in any other boats in Egypt; even in the first boat. But, here in the second boat, we find copper…”

I think that Rohim may be suffering from a case of Hawassitis-the condition of talking out one's Hawass before knowing all the facts. 

[Thanos5150]

6 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

A clearer photo:

More:

(Special thanks to Dr Troglodyte)

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by Thanos5150

[jmccr8]

4 hours ago, Thanos5150 said:

More:

(Special thanks to Dr Troglodyte)

 

Hi Thanos

These pics definitely look like copper given the blue hue of corrosion, iron is a brown/orange rust very different than copper

[Nobu]

How seaworthy were these vessels?

[Gaden]

On 11/2/2020 at 3:09 PM, Wepwawet said:

 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Gaden

[Thanos5150]

On 6/22/2021 at 7:05 PM, closed for business said:

Hi Thanos

These pics definitely look like copper given the blue hue of corrosion, iron is a brown/orange rust very different than copper

Hello.

I agree which is why I noted my skepticism. There is a "green rust" that occurs under certain conditions with iron and also what is known as bronze disease (green) which both look very similar to verdigris. I don't see that either would apply here. 

[docyabut2]

Khufu`s  son Djedefre put that ship at his pyramid.

Egyptian Pharaoh of the 4th Dynasty

Djedefre
Djedefra, Radjedef, Ratoises,[1] Rhampsinit, Rhauosis[2]
Quartzite head of Djedefre from Abu Rawash, Musée du Louvre
Pharaoh
Reign	10 to 14 years, ca. 2575 BC (4th Dynasty)
Predecessor	Khufu
Successor	Khafre
show Royal titulary Nomen Djedefre Sȝ Rˁ ḏd.f Rˁ The son of Ra, he endures like Ra Horus name Hor-Kheper Ḥr-ḫpr Embodiment of Horus Nebty name Kheper-im-nebti Ḫpr-m-nb.tj Embodied in the Two Ladies Golden Horus Bikju-nebu Bjk.jw-nb.w The most golden falcon Abydos King List Djedefre Ḏd.f Rˁ He endures like Ra Saqqara Tablet Djedefre Ḏḏ.f Rˁ He endures like Ra
Consort	Hetepheres II, Khentetka
Children	Setka, Baka, Hernet, Neferhetepes, Hetepheres ?, Nikaudjedefre ?
Father	Khufu
Burial	Pyramid of Djedefre, Great Sphinx of Giza ?[3]
Monuments	Pyramid of Djedefre

Djedefre

 

[+DieChecker]

I think its obvious. The boats were to haul the grain stored in the pyramid down the geyser watered causeway to the Nile. Sheesh!! 

The pits were the haborages, and when the water dried up, the boats were at the bottom. 

Seriously though, I imagine the "Older Pyramids" people will just say the boat pits were added later.

[Hanslune]

5 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I think its obvious. The boats were to haul the grain stored in the pyramid down the geyser watered causeway to the Nile. Sheesh!! 

The pits were the haborages, and when the water dried up, the boats were at the bottom. 

Seriously though, I imagine the "Older Pyramids" people will just say the boat pits were added later.

...yes during the general 'clean up' where all non-Egyptian pottery and other items were removed (not just from the pyramid, nor Giza nor even the Kingdom but the entire world - all lost civilization writing erased and replaced with Egyptian - and all wooden implements exchanged for new ones (those crafty ancient Egyptians knew that we'd have RC-14 dating in the future). History hiding swine!

[jaylemurph]

1 hour ago, Hanslune said:

...yes during the general 'clean up' where all non-Egyptian pottery and other items were removed (not just from the pyramid, nor Giza nor even the Kingdom but the entire world - all lost civilization writing erased and replaced with Egyptian - and all wooden implements exchanged for new ones (those crafty ancient Egyptians knew that we'd have RC-14 dating in the future). History hiding swine!

It took Them /days/ to do that, sir. 

And then they dined upon swines, sir; they were not swine themselves!

—Jaylemurph

[Hanslune]

4 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

It took Them /days/ to do that, sir. 

And then they dined upon swines, sir; they were not swine themselves!

—Jaylemurph

Hey it was a government contract don't let me think that you are saying they did it in the contracted time and within budget?

[+DieChecker]

10 hours ago, Hanslune said:

Hey it was a government contract don't let me think that you are saying they did it in the contracted time and within budget?

Of course they did, what with the aliens helping by softening the stones with magic berry juice and their antigravity tractor beams. Just like they did later for the Inca.

[Thanos5150]

On 6/25/2021 at 2:08 AM, DieChecker said:

Seriously though, I imagine the "Older Pyramids" people will just say the boat pits were added later.

This is the point of the OP is it not? 

Not quite what they were hoping for, but these boat pits were added later, during the reign of Djedefre, which is interesting in its own right. 

Edited June 26, 2021 by Thanos5150

[+Razman]

It just as well looks like "patina" , where when copper is exposed it turns green on it. Though didn't they say that on those little doors in the pyramid (that Gatenbrink's robot went in) , that there was handles on them that were made of copper or some other metal?

[Hanslune]

The only way to get iron into the piece would be for it to be iron but coated with bronze/copper - not sure if they drilled into it. however how would our good friend have known that?

[+DieChecker]

Magnets? 

I don't want to give them credit for being really smart, but I'd measure if an artifact i was studying had any magnetism, or was affected by magnetism. 

Iron would have been super rare. I thought I read that most, if not all, Old Kingdom iron was meteoric in origin. Occational pieces could be found in the surrounding desert.

They might have copper plated it, but that's an extreme lot of effort for a handle on a boat.

Edited June 29, 2021 by DieChecker

[+DieChecker]

I thought the air shaft handles were bronze, which also turn green, if I am remembering right.

[Jon101]

I really don't want to be controversial, but, what are Rohims academic qualifications - are they legitimate?.

 

My wife was involved in contract negotiations in a middle Eastern country.

The main lawyer was a fairly impressive guy, but after some time it became clear he was fairly clueless and eventually was sidelined in a way that allowed everyone to get to a good solution.

 

My wife heard from several people that his Qualifications had been 'bought'.

 

They weren't just from Eastern institutes either.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Jon101