2020 US election

[DieChecker]

10 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

If the election goes to the House from what I understand Pelosi would have no say in the matter.  Basically if no one wins 270 electoral college votes by the constitution the House must convene immediately and hold the vote for president.  There would simply be no way for her to do anything other then decide how the state of California will cast its vote.

Interestingly if this were to occur its possible Pence would not be the vice president.  While the house would be voting for president the Senate would be voting for the vice president and unlike the house each senator gets their own vote for vice president.  But given current make up of the senate Pence would probably win.

But it would be hilarious watching Trump order Kamala about.

[the13bats]

50 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Hey. Ive not got a single one. And I voted for him twice. I feel ripped off now.

Please post the text of a couple so we can see what we're missing. 

When you asked i did a search and perhaps not all the emails are from trump,

https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/us-politics/us-election-donald-trump-emails-americans-demanding-money-to-defend-the-election-but-half-goes-to-paying-off-his-debt/news-story/1fe2083e9a59307109594aa44fe8c82c

Perhaps i get them from being registered rep? ( long story )

[psyche101]

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

Hey. Ive not got a single one. And I voted for him twice. I feel ripped off now.

Please post the text of a couple so we can see what we're missing. 

Twice?

[Golden Duck]

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

Well, I agree on the legal system.

Are you afraid Trump might win back some states? Or that he might prove widespread fraud?

If there was fraud, shouldn't it be rooted out? Or is it more important that Trump loses?

Anyway, if Trump is committing fraud, like having people lie for him, then isn't that good, since he'll get caught and punished even worse, and STILL lose??

What law requires the government to disclose evidence in a federal lawsuit? None that I know of, unless one is the defendent.

Trump has no requirement to show you, or anyone, his evidence other then the courts. If he has none, even his own appointees aren't going to give him a victory. If there's no evidence, then he will lose. 

OK then. Let him have his lawsuits. 

As to "normal". Well, few would label Trump as normal. 

Huh? You still blaming dying people on Trump.

Maybe we should blame stuff on Obama and Bush too.

Go read up on covid. It is making a comeback, but that has zero to do with Trump IMHO.

I think I said Dec 15....

Are you scared then? That he might pull something out that works? Given time?

Oh, im sorry. Let me check the Constitution. Nope,  nothing about the AP deciding who won.

Apparently the votes have to be submitted and electors picked. That hasn't happened yet. So technically no one has won yet.

Meh. I disagree. 

Count every legal vote. Remove the illegal votes. Thats pure democracy.

Decades? Ha. LOL. We'll see. Most likely event is Biden does zip in two years and then House flips to Republicans. Then its Cruz elected in 2024.

While you're looking at the constitution what does the popular vote in eacg state matter? Which Electors are bound by the public vote?

[psyche101]

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

.eh. I disagree. 

Count every legal vote. Remove the illegal votes. Thats pure democracy.

That has been done. 

Taking the loss very badly and wanting to try again isn't democracy as far as I understand. 

Should Trump's claims be proven to be the only fraud here, do you feel he should pay for the entire investigation and be fined for the disruption caused? 

Edited November 13, 2020 by psyche101

[Golden Duck]

10 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

That has been done. 

Taking the loss very badly and wanting to try again isn't democracy as far as I understand. 

Should Trump's claims be proven to be the only fraud here, do you feel he should pay for the entire investigation and be fined for the disruption caused? 

No of course not.  As a Democrat Biden is supposed to be corrupt, and not committing voter fraud is itself fraud.  Plus, he smells...

[DarkHunter]

18 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

While you're looking at the constitution what does the popular vote in eacg state matter? Which Electors are bound by the public vote?

That is actually a very tricky and complicated matter which does not actually have a very well defined answer.

In the majority of states there are state laws that the electors must be selected by how the popular vote goes in the state and the majority of states have laws against faithless electors so in general they got to follow the popular vote in that state.

Now this is where it gets tricky.  Before the electors are selected the vote has to be certified and that is different in different states.  In general either the state legislature or the secretary of state of the state certify the election results as valid.  So in states that have the state legislature certify the election they could just decide to not certify it as valid which then causes a chain of events where the state legislature picks the electors, similar thing happens if the secretary of state doesnt certify the election or whoever does the certification. 

There is also the fact that since the laws on electors being selected by the popular vote was written by the state legislature they can just change it whenever they want and depending on the state they may or may not require the governor to sign the new legislation changing the laws.

Lastly justices on the Supreme Court have been saying the state legislature has sole authority on picking the electors regardless of what any state law says.

Ultimately it's a very confusing and really undefined mess of a question as it's never been a significant problem before so very little is actually clear on it and because it is different for each state since the federal government has no say in any of it what so ever beyond saying it's up to each state's legislator.

I'll admit probably not a satisfying answer but basically popular vote only matters for as much as each state legislature wants it to matter for.

[the13bats]

Okay, i want to learn something so honest replies will be appreciated trolling bs will be laughed at and ignored,

Keep in mind my ignorance in politics and how it works, so please do explain it up.

Seems time is trumps friend If trump drags out things long enough and deals it in a way so state and or house get to choose the potus, which would in turn mean millions of Americans would be essentially told your right to vote has been reneged.

since house and state are rep majority they would of course hand it to trump, which would be fine and dandy for trump fans but not for the other millions who voted against him, or any citizen who supports boting a lot of people would really be getting the shaft, not just non trumpers who of course wouldnt care as their guy won,

Really though, why couldnt it play out like this Its not like anyone could do a thing to stop it.

 

[DarkHunter]

3 minutes ago, the13bats said:

Okay, i want to learn something so honest replies will be appreciated trolling bs will be laughed at and ignored,

Keep in mind my ignorance in politics and how it works, so please do explain it up.

Seems time is trumps friend If trump drags out things long enough and deals it in a way so state and or house get to choose the potus, which would in turn mean millions of Americans would be essentially told your right to vote has been reneged.

since house and state are rep majority they would of course hand it to trump, which would be fine and dandy for trump fans but not for the other millions who voted against him, or any citizen who supports boting a lot of people would really be getting the shaft, not just non trumpers who of course wouldnt care as their guy won,

Really though, why couldnt it play out like this Its not like anyone could do a thing to stop it.

 

There is basically nothing at all stopping that from being a possibility which is why all of this is concerning.  Legally all of that can happen and is allowed by the constitution and current legal structure of America.  For better or worse this election is showing the limits, flaws, and strengths of the system that America has created for electing the president.

[DieChecker]

46 minutes ago, the13bats said:

When you asked i did a search and perhaps not all the emails are from trump,

https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/us-politics/us-election-donald-trump-emails-americans-demanding-money-to-defend-the-election-but-half-goes-to-paying-off-his-debt/news-story/1fe2083e9a59307109594aa44fe8c82c

Perhaps i get them from being registered rep? ( long story )

Looks like a fake email to me. 

I've been registered R for decades. I think I was registered independent a couple years back though... Maybe 2014? Changed it back at DMV I think. 

I did find this...

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/11/07/trump-email-fundraising-would-pay-campaign-debt-fine-print-says/6202250002/

Quote

In the Trump campaign's latest push to raise money for its "election defense" fund, at least half of any donation could go toward paying down debt for the president's campaign, according to the fine print.

So obviously they are sending out emails. 

[DieChecker]

54 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Twice?

Sure. You'd rather vote for Clinton the first go round?

Im pragmatic. Will take the devil i know, rather then the one I dont.

Plus Bidens just a puppet...

[DieChecker]

54 minutes ago, Golden Duck said:

While you're looking at the constitution what does the popular vote in eacg state matter? Which Electors are bound by the public vote?

Most states have a law to prevent just that. 

http://archive.fairvote.org/?page=967

A faithless elector would be blackballed (might not be able to say that anymore, given BLM) in politics, and likely in their job. 

Its like a fraud that involves 1000 votes. Usually doesn't matter and so is ignored.

[DieChecker]

56 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

That has been done. 

But it hasn't. There are still a number of things up in the air. Where a state election official gave instructions that countered the state constitution.

These votes may be legal, or might not. That's why there's lawsuits filed. Because if they weren't filed, the state might just shrug and move on, because the Democrats want Biden to win.

Its easy to tolerate illegal activities if it benefits yourself, or your politician.

Quote

Taking the loss very badly and wanting to try again isn't democracy as far as I understand. 

Except in Georgia, thier laws require them to recount. And their constitution would allow another recount... Automatically. Since the difference between candidates is less then 0.5% at 0.3%.

Quote

Should Trump's claims be proven to be the only fraud here, do you feel he should pay for the entire investigation and be fined for the disruption caused?

Pay for it? OK. Sure. If Trumps lawsuits fail, his campaign should pay for it.

I doubt it will matter. Politicians hardly ever pay for anything themselves. It will be supporters who end up paying for it, and most will do so happily.

[Setton]

3 hours ago, President-Elect Acidhead said:

The reason Biden was chose to go up against Lord Commander Trump was because nobody will REALLY question why he lost. Bad candidate. 

And still more popular than Trump.

That must be difficult to swallow.

[Setton]

1 hour ago, DieChecker said:

But it would be hilarious watching Trump order Kamala about.

But not half as hilarious as watching Pence play second fiddle to Biden.

[DieChecker]

47 minutes ago, the13bats said:

Okay, i want to learn something so honest replies will be appreciated trolling bs will be laughed at and ignored,

Keep in mind my ignorance in politics and how it works, so please do explain it up.

Seems time is trumps friend If trump drags out things long enough and deals it in a way so state and or house get to choose the potus, which would in turn mean millions of Americans would be essentially told your right to vote has been reneged.

since house and state are rep majority they would of course hand it to trump, which would be fine and dandy for trump fans but not for the other millions who voted against him, or any citizen who supports boting a lot of people would really be getting the shaft, not just non trumpers who of course wouldnt care as their guy won,

Really though, why couldnt it play out like this Its not like anyone could do a thing to stop it.

Thats all true. And it really is sad.

This shouldn't be how presidential elections are conducted.

But, like with someone who has plenty of money, but goes and shoplifts clothes, why didn't these states in question just follow their own damn rules??

Did people at various levels just decide to try changing things just a little bit, to be sure to secure a Biden win. But then people noticed, and it became a news story. 

Why did the PA Supreme Court allow late votes? Why didn't the PA legislature confirm that change to law? Because the PA Supreme Court leans left, and they knew they'd need those mail in votes. And the legislature in overwhelmingly Republican, and wouldn't have allowed the extension.

So, it was all a political game. Politics by the PA Supreme Court no less.

People knew that a large number of votes were mail in, and that they'd be heavily Biden favoring, and so some people acted, to make it happen.

PA usually has between a 1% and 2% rejection rate. This election, so far, its been 0.03%. About 50X lower. Because people acted, to make it happen.

[DieChecker]

11 minutes ago, Setton said:

But not half as hilarious as watching Pence play second fiddle to Biden.

Well, that would be funny too... 

[quillius]

6 hours ago, ChrLzs said:

OK, so how are the court cases going?  I'm glad you asked...

From Philadelphia/Pennsylvania
(regarding Trump supporters allegedly not gaining access as observers)
Judge: Were they in the room or not?
Trump Lawyer: They are not being given equal access to the room.
Judge: Were they in the room?
Trump Lawyer: There is a non-zero number of people in the room. {????}
Judge: A non-zero number of people? I don't know what that is... As a member of the bar of this court, were people representing Donald Trump for president, representing the plaintiff, in that room?
Trump Lawyer: Yes.
Judge: I'm sorry, then what's your problem?

From Montgomery County, Maryland 
Judge: ..so you don't claim that any electors .. were guilty of fraud, correct?
Trump Lawyer: Your honor, accusing people of fraud is a pretty big step.  {oh, the delicious irony...}
Judge: I understand.  I am asking you a specific question and looking for a specific answer.  Are you claiming that there is any fraud in connection with the 592 disputed ballots?
Trump Lawyer: To my knowledge at present, no.

From Michigan
(right at end of case)
Judge: It is mere speculation by plaintiffs that hundreds or thousands of ballots have in fact been changed and presumably falsified.  {The case failed because} plaintiffs have made only a claim but have offered NO EVIDENCE.

 

There's more to come and it gets worse.  These are lawyers selected by the President....  Words almost fail me..

 

 

qʎ ʇɥǝ ʍɐʎ' ʇɥᴉs ndsᴉpǝ poʍu qnsᴉuǝss ɐuuoʎs ɯǝ....

Hey Mr C, have you a link to these transcripts? wouldn't mind looking at these further as they are interesting, cheers

[the13bats]

49 minutes ago, DarkHunter said:

There is basically nothing at all stopping that from being a possibility which is why all of this is concerning.  Legally all of that can happen and is allowed by the constitution and current legal structure of America.  For better or worse this election is showing the limits, flaws, and strengths of the system that America has created for electing the president.

Ty,

Being "legal" doesnt always mean its right or wont be a gross abuse of power.

I have to wonder if this is just what trump is milking the scared cow for, afterall a lot of in the know folks have told him as far as fraud goes he has no case.

So then how would just handing it to trump sit with non trumpers non republicans, anti gov types and anyone who believes in a vote your leader in system?

 

 

[psyche101]

14 minutes ago, quillius said:

Hey Mr C, have you a link to these transcripts? wouldn't mind looking at these further as they are interesting, cheers

This link doesn't cover all those allegations, but most seem to consider it an impartial source.

I found it shed some light on the situation for me. 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2020/11/10/trump-campaign-sues-to-stop-pennsylvania-certifying-biden-win

[the13bats]

22 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

People knew that a large number of votes were mail in, and that they'd be heavily Biden favoring, and so some people acted, to make it happen.

PA usually has between a 1% and 2% rejection rate. This election, so far, its been 0.03%. About 50X lower. Because people acted, to make it happen

Your reply really wasnt about what i asked read what darkhunter replied to me,

The part of yours i quoted, note bold

Its a fact more legit votes were for biden and that makes what you added contradicting and moot, this is where i will ruffle trump supporter feathers because while i would imagine there are invalid votes and even a few bogus votes, and of course not just left but right too there isnt even to give trump a win

hence back to my pondering if trump in deed figure out a way to legally steal the election and if he does will there be fallout or is it just where America is now and it will all be cool.

[the13bats]

43 minutes ago, DieChecker said:

Its easy to tolerate illegal activities if it benefits yourself, or your politician

A trump go to

[DarkHunter]

12 minutes ago, the13bats said:

Ty,

Being "legal" doesnt always mean its right or wont be a gross abuse of power.

I have to wonder if this is just what trump is milking the scared cow for, afterall a lot of in the know folks have told him as far as fraud goes he has no case.

So then how would just handing it to trump sit with non trumpers non republicans, anti gov types and anyone who believes in a vote your leader in system?

 

 

Its impossible to say how people would react as it depends on way to many variables.  Maybe people get mad and start protesting, the protest could stay peaceful and either force Trump out or fizzle out over a few days or weeks from lack of progress, fear of coronavirus, lack of interest, or any other reason.  Maybe the protest turn violent and evolve into mass riots and maybe they somehow organize and a quasi-civil war starts or maybe they never organize and Trump systematically puts them down.  Maybe people just get so shocked or are just so burnt out on politics that nothing happens.  There are just too many variables and factors to determine what would happen.

Only thing that is certain is that for better or worse Trump has exposed a lot of problems in the election system.  Whether Trump can effectively exploit those problems or not is yet to be seem but he has shown they now exist and can in theory be used.  No matter what happens serious reform needs to be done, not just at fixing the problems Trump exposed but dealing with all the issues this election has brought up.

Honestly a lot of the American system is built on a system of honor and tradition, which works as long as all major parties respect that but Trump cares about winning and nothing else.  That very well could be the downfall of Biden, he is a life long politician and looking at this probably how a politician would and is probably expecting Trump to play by the rules politicians have been playing by while Trump, and probably his lawyers, have been looking for every conceivable method of obtaining victory and probably been planning this contingency since before the campaign started like a businessman where only success matters no matter how its achieved.

Depending on how things go it might be a fun few weeks till December 14.

[stevewinn]

Biden still not won and its not a formality at this stage, Trump digging up evidence all over the place of voter fraud. - much like the Dems digging up  entire cemeteries for voters. 2024 Vote (Ronald) Reagan.

Edited November 13, 2020 by stevewinn

[the13bats]

17 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

Trump digging up evidence all over the place of voter fraud

Not really, ive been crawling the net reading doing my own thinking, lots of smoke but no smoking gun, nothing at all that will do things like cancel biden votes to the tune of 5m then award trump enough votes to win,

Trump is finding stuff like DH was pointing out lots of flaws in the system lots of things need work and fixing, might he use that? Sure because above all this is an ego trip for him nit whats best for a country or people in it.

Thats why i started speculating a bit on what could happen trump has considered just stealing away the election and while some trumpers might not like me calling it stealing it really is in the context of it, and then that made me wonder there are a lot of folks in the country some even support trump but they also believe in the election process,

I saw how angry people became when they thought they rights were taken from them, i question what really would happen i want this to pass smoothly i do not believe trump can allow that.

It really boils down to if one removes the orange tinted specs, for trump to win he will have to go underhanded, loop holes and flaws in the system because as far as fair legit votes go biden won but we see that doesnt mean anything and yes, its not over yet not by half.