NDE: A skeptic neurosurgeon experienced this!

[Guyver]

23 hours ago, eight bits said:

The theorem only discusses two dimensional abtract objects. What it says about them is certainly true, if that phrase has meaning at all. What else is true about geometries, and there are unboundedly many such true propositions, is irrelevant to the point being made about confidence in the face of logical, scrupulous but not serious, possiility of error.

Now, psyche must accept that reasonable people might disagree with him. However, if his critics here are so reasonable, then why am I reading so much about what's wrong with his vocabularly choices,and so little about anything specific that's wrong with his physics?

There’s nothing wrong with “his” physics Eight.  Like the Pythagorean Theorem they are dependable, reliable, and hold true to a certain extent and under the right circumstances.  But what they don’t do is provide reliable information regarding things that are not known right now.  
 

At this time there is no known scientifically verifiable information that proves that a man dies like a dog and he’s gone.  And similarly, there’s no scientifically available mechanisms known to show the opposite.  But there is a very real possibility that there is more to physical existence than is currently known by science right now.  NDE’s, ghosts, hauntings, spirits, cellular memory, collective soul, Astral projection, ESP, miracles, angels, quantum entanglement and a dozen other mysterious phenomenon could in fact be reflective of some other type of force that we don’t currently know about.  To a person like Psyche or any other skeptic who has never experienced any type of paranormal or unusual phenomenon of any kind, it seems like the current scientific model is correct.  Man dies, returns to the ground becoming the chemical elements from which he was formed, and that’s it.  But other people, myself included claim to have experienced mysterious phenomena that is not explained by the current scientific model.

In any event, to think that science knows everything right now and the physics is complete would be foolish IMO.  People have mentioned dark matter, dark energy, but even the Higgs boson is reflective of new aspects of physics that are not fully known by people at this time.  With this uncertainty, or unknown information, it is likely that new discoveries will be made at some point in the future that change the way we understand things.  I don’t understand why this notion is so hard for people to accept.

[eight bits]

7 hours ago, Guyver said:

At this time there is no known scientifically verifiable information that proves that a man dies like a dog and he’s gone.

Or the dog, either.

But I think you can see there's a problem. On the one hand, nobody comes back (human or dog). And if the discussion were about an afterlife where people and dogs just go "somewhere else," somewhere truly else and were never seen again earthside by anybody ever - really gone, then we'd have the pure Hitchens's Razor stand-off:

Believer: Well, they went somewhere where the physics is altogether different. There is a there there, but it's utterly unlike here. So, to hell with your physics which can't even conceive of how things work in this radical otherland.

Skeptic: What you just told me is that not only is there no evidence for this otherland, but there cannot possibly be any. And so I dismiss your claim, and unless the laws of otherland physics change, that dismissal can never end. I don't need the support of physics, because there is nothing to discuss, and apparently never will be.

There is little or no practical difference between a perpetual dismissal and an outright rejection.

But, as I noted in an earlier post, we don't have that nice clean situation in this thread. The dead of this thread are still occasionally in the physical world, or never actually leave it in the first place (the living can visit and come back).which makes this afterlife fair game for analysis by physicists and other natural scientists. Now, if there's something wrong with that analysis, preferably something specific, then fire away.

Speaking personally, however, I see a lot of wishful thinking, special pleading and evidence that doesn't add up. @psyche101 goes the extra mile, looking into the science of the thing.

To which the rebuttal is that science doesn't know everything. OK, but what support does that lend the  now-you-see-'em-now-you-don't afterlife? Not a lot.

If this thread were is S v S, I'd say more. In SRB? I think psyche has the better argument. Some people would phrase it differently than he does. OK. It's still the better argument, IMO, just as it comes.

 

Edited November 25, 2020 by eight bits

[XenoFish]

18 minutes ago, eight bits said:

There is little or no practical difference between a perpetual dismissal and an outright rejection.

In the big picture of life does it even matter is there is/isn't an afterlife? If there is nothing then belief or not doesn't matter at all. 

[XenoFish]

Here's how I see it and damn me if you like. But if a person happens to believe that this story called life doesn't end, that they may get a better one if they follow certain rules. Rules that benefit not only them, but those around them. They live their lives with faith, hope, and love. Becoming a better person along the way. Does the existence of an afterlife really matter all that much? Are the benefits of such a positive moral living more important. Sure we can spit fire back and forth all day. As far as I can tell, most don't care.

[Mr Walker]

7 hours ago, XenoFish said:

In the big picture of life does it even matter is there is/isn't an afterlife? If there is nothing then belief or not doesn't matter at all. 

It is the belief which is critical.

That  belief empowers people, eases grief and pain,  gives hope, and is often the only thing which keeps people going 

 

The actual existence of an after life is far less important,  but yes of course it matters, because  it would make a difference IF it was true from if it was not true.

Anything which makes a difference between two potential outcomes,  matters

[Mr Walker]

7 hours ago, XenoFish said:

Here's how I see it and damn me if you like. But if a person happens to believe that this story called life doesn't end, that they may get a better one if they follow certain rules. Rules that benefit not only them, but those around them. They live their lives with faith, hope, and love. Becoming a better person along the way. Does the existence of an afterlife really matter all that much? Are the benefits of such a positive moral living more important. Sure we can spit fire back and forth all day. As far as I can tell, most don't care.

Ah youve actually just answered with the same point i made above.

It is the belief and the consequences of belief which are significant BUT it does make a difference if an after life exists or it does not. 

[Guyver]

On 11/25/2020 at 2:50 PM, XenoFish said:

Here's how I see it and damn me if you like. But if a person happens to believe that this story called life doesn't end, that they may get a better one if they follow certain rules. Rules that benefit not only them, but those around them. They live their lives with faith, hope, and love. Becoming a better person along the way. Does the existence of an afterlife really matter all that much? Are the benefits of such a positive moral living more important. Sure we can spit fire back and forth all day. As far as I can tell, most don't care.

Even when I was a believer in the Bible, I didn’t care much for the notion of the afterlife.  I just assumed that whatever it is, God knows, and I’ll find out when I get there.  I’m more concerned with living this life and trying to understand why I’m here in the first place....so, I agree with your point.  No, it doesn’t matter that much except for one point.  In order for there to be an afterlife with some meaning for an individual, then it means “self” survives the death process.

According to the Bible and many other spiritual/religious beliefs around the world...this is the result of a thing called spirit.  Spirit is a term used to imply that a persons essence is not purely the result of matter (body) and energy(brain/cellular metabolism) interaction, but that the body is like a container or prison if you like for this personal essence that includes mind.

On the topic of NDE, there is a way to prove it scientifically.  It’s called veridical perception.  It means that while “dead” a person still has the ability to perceive our reality....as if their brains/minds are functional.  There are reports of it occurring in the NDE literature, and experiments currently ongoing, attempting to verify it.  
 

I would post an imbedded link, but I don’t know how to do it on a tablet.  https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-science-of-near-death-experiences/386231/

[Guyver]

Spelling typo above.

[Guyver]

On 11/25/2020 at 2:28 PM, eight bits said:

 

To which the rebuttal is that science doesn't know everything. OK, but what support does that lend the  now-you-see-'em-now-you-don't afterlife? Not a lot.

If this thread were is S v S, I'd say more. In SRB? I think psyche has the better argument. Some people would phrase it differently than he does. OK. It's still the better argument, IMO, just as it comes.

 

That’s fine.  I think you are entitled to your opinion and I don’t have a problem with it.

[+Desertrat56]

On 11/25/2020 at 11:34 PM, Mr Walker said:

It is the belief which is critical.

That  belief empowers people, eases grief and pain,  gives hope, and is often the only thing which keeps people going 

 

The actual existence of an after life is far less important,  but yes of course it matters, because  it would make a difference IF it was true from if it was not true.

Anything which makes a difference between two potential outcomes,  matters

I have seen the opposite in that belief, creating guilt which then causes resentment which causes bad behaviour to others which causes fear of damnation, which causes guilt which causes resentment etc.  Belief in an afterlife does not always ease grief and pain, nor does it give hope (which hope is to me the most useless of them all).  And in those cases, what keeps people going is fear anyway.  So you need to define the beliefs you are referring to, it isn't just about an afterlife, but about a judgement and the fear that being human will cause the judgement to be hellfire and damnation.  So, belief in an afterlife is not so simple, you can't generalize it one way or the other.

[XenoFish]

5 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I have seen the opposite in that belief, creating guilt which then causes resentment which causes bad behaviour to others which causes fear of damnation, which causes guilt which causes resentment etc.  Belief in an afterlife does not always ease grief and pain, nor does it give hope (which hope is to me the most useless of them all).  And in those cases, what keeps people going is fear anyway.  So you need to define the beliefs you are referring to, it isn't just about an afterlife, but about a judgement and the fear that being human will cause the judgement to be hellfire and damnation.  So, belief in an afterlife is not so simple, you can't generalize it one way or the other.

When an afterlife amount to either eternal suffering or kissing god's butt forever, that doesn't exactly seem appealing. Even reincarnation looks like a bad idea. Then you have "sin" guilt, which in some people can amount to almost panic attacks at even the slightest infraction. It really depends on which belief system a person adhere's to.

[+Desertrat56]

8 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

When an afterlife amount to either eternal suffering or kissing god's butt forever, that doesn't exactly seem appealing. Even reincarnation looks like a bad idea. Then you have "sin" guilt, which in some people can amount to almost panic attacks at even the slightest infraction. It really depends on which belief system a person adhere's to.

Yes, the after life story of god rewarding certain behaviour is the one that is the most anxiety causing, the one I described.  There are other beliefs of afterlife that include reincarnation, or graduating from some life school to move to a more advanced life school, even that one causes anxiety because no one gives you a manual about what lessons you are supposed to learn, so you spend your life second guessing everything you do and say and think, even what you eat.  Then there is the philosophy that we are an entity having an experience, one story I was told is that we are pieces of "god" experiencing all aspects of being human on planet earth.  And every one picks and chooses different pieces of those stories, either to feel better about being human or because they want someone else to give them the "cheat sheet" to survive being human.

My opinion is that the more anxious you are about the afterlife, and the less comfortable about being in a human body on planet earth, the more fear you have about everything, including being good enough to get to sit by your god when you leave your body.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Desertrat56

[XenoFish]

2 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Yes, the after life story of god rewarding certain behaviour is the one that is the most anxiety causing, the one I described.  There are other beliefs of afterlife that include reincarnation, or graduating from some life school to move to a more advanced life school, even that one causes anxiety because no one gives you a manual about what lessons you are supposed to learn, so you spend your life second guessing everything you do and say and think, even what you eat.  Then there is the philosophy that we are an entity having an experience, one story I was told is that we are pieces of "god" experiencing all aspects of being human on planet earth.  And every one picks and chooses different pieces of those stories, either to feel better about being human or because they want someone else to give them the "cheat sheet" to survive being human.

It only goes to show that we're making it up as we go along. 

In regards to the bold I've seen it as universe instead of god. We are the universe observing itself. Which I guess could work in some cosmological ideology. 

[spartan max2]

The afterlife concept I would choose if I could pick any is the one I read from some guys NDE.

In it there was no god. We are all that immortal spirits. When you die you have a life review where you expierence the feelings of everyone around you in relation to your actions. 

Then you are back in the spirit realm place. Where you stay as long as you want until you decide to reincarnate as a human again.

The point was to learn as you went or just to expierence being human. 

If I had to pick one that'd be it.

[+Desertrat56]

9 minutes ago, XenoFish said:

It only goes to show that we're making it up as we go along. 

In regards to the bold I've seen it as universe instead of god. We are the universe observing itself. Which I guess could work in some cosmological ideology. 

It's really only the difference between personifying a creator deity that judges you or generalizing creation as one coherent entity of which we ar all part,  I prefer your version, but even that does not satisfy me as an explanation, as, like you said, we are all making it up, or letting someone else tell us what they made up.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Desertrat56

[+Desertrat56]

4 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

The afterlife concept I would choose if I could pick any is the one I read from some guys NDE.

In it there was no god. We are all that immortal spirits. When you die you have a life review where you expierence the feelings of everyone around you in relation to your actions. 

Then you are back in the spirit realm place. Where you stay as long as you want until you decide to reincarnate as a human again.

The point was to learn as you went or just to expierence being human. 

If I had to pick one that'd be it.

"if I could choose"  What the hell does that mean?  You do choose, you can choose, and there is only your choice.  That is how belief works, you choose.

[XenoFish]

1 minute ago, Desertrat56 said:

It's really only the difference between personifying a creator deity that judges you or generalizing creation as one coherent entity of which we ar all part,  I prefer your version, but even that does not satisfy me as an explanation, as, like you said, we are all making it up, or letting someone else tell us what they made up.

Sometimes the best answer is to not think about it. You'd end up questioning if your right or wrong half the time. I guess the only answer is to live life the best we can and if something is after this life so be it. If not, then you've lived your best. Pretty simple concept to me.

[spartan max2]

2 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

"if I could choose"  What the hell does that mean?  You do choose, you can choose, and there is only your choice.  That is how belief works, you choose.

I mean if I could choose one to be true. Sadly, I do not have that power  lol.

[+Desertrat56]

5 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

I mean if I could choose one to be true. Sadly, I do not have that power  lol.

That's because none of them are "true", so you choose what you want to believe and move on with your life, doing the best you can based on what you think is right.  

And I am sure you are already doing that,.

Edited November 27, 2020 by Desertrat56

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

I have seen the opposite in that belief, creating guilt which then causes resentment which causes bad behaviour to others which causes fear of damnation, which causes guilt which causes resentment etc.  Belief in an afterlife does not always ease grief and pain, nor does it give hope (which hope is to me the most useless of them all).  And in those cases, what keeps people going is fear anyway.  So you need to define the beliefs you are referring to, it isn't just about an afterlife, but about a judgement and the fear that being human will cause the judgement to be hellfire and damnation.  So, belief in an afterlife is not so simple, you can't generalize it one way or the other.

 

Clearly you are correct about this and  i have seen the same happen but very rarely Ie a few percent of the people i know

I realise this is due to personal circumstances and the family friends colleagues and neighbours I know. For example i have close contact with very few Catholic people, who traditionally (if not so much now) could be fearful due to the catholic concept of hell (although the y also had the simplest form of forgiveness, via confession to a priest )

Those people I know  who don't choose a constructive belief simply choose not to believe, which is better for them than a destructive belief 

Both choices are open to people.

If they choose one which causes pain or guilt, or something else destructive, then they have some other reason for that choice

'The good news is that we have the abilty to choose our beliefs and behaviours,  and to choose something which heals  empowers, and gives hope  If we didn't have that abilty it would be a pretty terrible world for human beings 

How can belief in an afterlife NOT bring hope and ease grief and pain? 

Unless of course you  think there is a hell and you  are going to it, but Christianity makes this easy.

EVERYONE is forgiven their  "original" sins by Christ's sacrifice and your individual sin is forgiven by a simple process of being sorry, trying to stop sinning, and confessing and making restitution to those people you have hurt 

I did originally say and have emphasised tha t it is positive beliefs which do positive things.

  I don't believe in heaven or hell, but i do like the idea of having more time.

Life is good. Death is not so good   More life is better than less life.

(unless one is in terrible permanent  pain.) 

Hope is the greatest gift of god (or of evolutionary process) that humans can be given (after life itself)

Due to their level of self awareness Humans (unlike other animals ) can't live without hope of some sort, even if tha t is just hope for the future  

If the y do live, it is a pretty terrible existence, and many don't survive once hope is lost. 

and hope is basically faith in things getting better . 

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, XenoFish said:

When an afterlife amount to either eternal suffering or kissing god's butt forever, that doesn't exactly seem appealing. Even reincarnation looks like a bad idea. Then you have "sin" guilt, which in some people can amount to almost panic attacks at even the slightest infraction. It really depends on which belief system a person adhere's to.

People accuse me of having too big an ego, but surely if  a person believes that their life, and after life, is in their hands and under their control,  then a person with good self esteem will believe the y  can avoid any hell or damnation.  The whole belief structure  of Christianity is predicated upon the idea that we are responsible for, and can control, our thoughts and behaviours,  but where we cant  or fail to do so, we are/can be forgiven them.

If the y are about to do something wrong, knowing that within their belief system it will cause harm, then perhaps a guilt/ panic attack is not a bad thing  

Its an evolutionary response meant to stop you doing whatever you are about to do 

What you  could argue is that,  as societies evolve, some of the thoughts and behaviours written down a s being sinful are now common place,  causing an inner conflict, with believers of an ancient code trying to live in modern world. 

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

Yes, the after life story of god rewarding certain behaviour is the one that is the most anxiety causing, the one I described.  There are other beliefs of afterlife that include reincarnation, or graduating from some life school to move to a more advanced life school, even that one causes anxiety because no one gives you a manual about what lessons you are supposed to learn, so you spend your life second guessing everything you do and say and think, even what you eat.  Then there is the philosophy that we are an entity having an experience, one story I was told is that we are pieces of "god" experiencing all aspects of being human on planet earth.  And every one picks and chooses different pieces of those stories, either to feel better about being human or because they want someone else to give them the "cheat sheet" to survive being human.

My opinion is that the more anxious you are about the afterlife, and the less comfortable about being in a human body on planet earth, the more fear you have about everything, including being good enough to get to sit by your god when you leave your body.

Why would  the idea of good behaviour being rewarded and bad behaviour being punished  cause anxiety  unless you  believed  you  could not be good Ie the expectations or rules were set too high to be achievable?

In the case of Christian theology, this is  agreed (all fall short)  but Christians  are still expected to do their best.

The y all have a get out of gaol free card when they fail, but keep trying 

Secular society is also based on understanding of good and bad behaviours and an expectation that we will all try to  be on our best behaviour.

If you (generic)   dont feel guilt when drink driving, or cheating on a partner, or stealing,  then there is somehtng wrong   eg your values are out of kilter with your society's,   or you (generic again) are a sociopath 

We choose and construct our fears and anxieties. The good news is that were capable of dismantling them and constructing more positive constructs 

So i agree that  we generate our  fears  and anxieties for many reasons but we can choose to generate hope, rather than fear

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, Desertrat56 said:

"if I could choose"  What the hell does that mean?  You do choose, you can choose, and there is only your choice.  That is how belief works, you choose.

I like this but i assumed it was a rhetorical statement Ie my favourite choice would be........

Eg If the moon was made of cheese i would prefer it to be parmesan 

Got a feeling I didn't explain this very well, but anyway.  

I see it's been asked and answered above. 

Edited November 27, 2020 by Mr Walker

[XenoFish]

2 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

I mean if I could choose one to be true. Sadly, I do not have that power  lol.

It's a coin toss. You don't know till it lands. Same with death. No one knows with absolute certain (except fools) how the story ends. Perhaps our stores about an afterlife are just comfortable lies we tell ourselves so that we can live better. Nihilism can be awfully depressing. I've got my own comfortable lie I tell myself. Be there truth to it or not, it has made my life more livable. 

[psyche101]

On 11/26/2020 at 1:25 AM, Guyver said:

At this time there is no known scientifically verifiable information that proves that a man dies like a dog and he’s gone.  

Most dogs I encounter are better than most people I encounter.