A large “dent” in Earth’s geoid

[Thanos5150]

4 hours ago, Tom1200 said:

There has never been any mystery around the perspective as suggested in "most intriguingly, the map is painted from an overhead perspective, as if the artist was hovering above the city gates".  This large painting was high up on an outside wall, designed to be seen from the street, and this would present a realistic perspective for the viewer.

Artistically, the use of overhead perspective to this degree and such a large scale is very unusual for this period-the only of its kind. If you look at Roman art overhead perspective is limited to a slight tilt with its use most often juxtaposed against linear forced perspective.  

A common display of the Roman use of perspective from the 1st century AD:

Compare to the Painted City:

This is orthographic perspective invented by the Chinese roughly 2,000yrs ago.

I think this is an idealist depiction of an earlier Rome with the real mystery being the art itself.  

Edited November 27, 2020 by Thanos5150

[docyabut2]

Hi all, but if Atlantis was a real city, there had to be a drawing or a painting of it . 

[Trelane]

17 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

Hi all, but if Atlantis was a real city, there had to be a drawing or a painting of it . 

Exactly. There's no painting of it, so it isn't real. See? We're making progress.

[jaylemurph]

1 hour ago, docyabut2 said:

Hi all, but if Atlantis was a real city, there had to be a drawing or a painting of it . 

I see, as usual, you’ve failed to note the difference between your opinion and fact. 

I understand most American schoolchildren study that about fourth grade or so. Perhaps you should review it. 

—Jaylemurph 

[Abramelin]

14 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

because it was the theory of a lost city

https://www.ancient-origins.net/news-history-archaeology/2500-year-old-city-buried-under-flood-sediment-may-belong-lost-civilization-020521

 a painting of a lost city

May 27, 1998
Web posted at: 3:29 a.m. EDT (0729 GMT)
From Rome Bureau Chief Gayle Young
ROME (CNN) -- Beneath the Eternal City, an accident has unveiled a mystery that has archaeologists excited but puzzled.
In the ancient Baths of Trajan, near the Colosseum, a worker accidentally scraped away part of a wall this spring, revealing a map some 2,000 years old.
But a map of what?
"It's certainly not Rome, because the features don't match," says site superintendent Eugenio La Rocca. "Also, it's not London, as has been suggested."
Historians are considering the possibility that it's a mythical city, or a figment of the artist's imagination, but La Rocca is not convinced. "It's possible it's Atlantis, but we don't think so," he says. "It's so precise, we believe it's a real city."
While experts compare the map to the layout of known ancient cities, modern technology has been brought to bear on the question. Experts have enhanced the faded colors of the painting, and built a three-dimensional model based on it.
Art historians are also intrigued -- the painter used shadowing and perspective techniques that were uncommon in the first century A.D., and painted buildings reflected in water.
Perhaps most intriguingly, the map is painted from an overhead perspective, as if the artist was hovering above the city gates.
Though historians have the best of modern technology and surviving ancient documents on their side, the map may never be understood; the city it depicts and the artist who painted it may have left no other tracks to follow.

CNN - Scientists study mystery map in Roman ruins - May 27, 1998
 

 

Docyabut, reposting the same stuff over and over again won't win you any supporters.

I showed you that that satellite image of the remnants of a Tartessian harbor looked very similar to the harbor of Carthage. And that should not be a surprise: the Punics/Phoenicians settled Gadir/Cadiz around 1000 bc, and they had a very big influence on Tartessian culture.

Whatever your hero, Montexano, finds, is most probably a Punic/Phoenician construction/artifact, or heavily influenced by them.

------

Was Atlantis nothing but Plato's fabrication based on the accomplishments of the Phoenicians? No, but that may have been part of the fiction he created to prove a political and philosophical point.

[Swede]

19 hours ago, docyabut2 said:

Historians are considering the possibility that it's a mythical city, or a figment of the artist's imagination, but La Rocca is not convinced. "It's possible it's Atlantis, but we don't think so," he says. "It's so precise, we believe it's a real city."

CNN - Scientists study mystery map in Roman ruins - May 27, 1998

Docy: Even your own (dated) reference does not believe that the imagery represents "Atlantis".

.

[jaylemurph]

2 hours ago, Swede said:

Docy: Even your own (dated) reference does not believe that the imagery represents "Atlantis".

.

We  need to come up with a name for this shared Mario/Docy synergy -- Macy? Dorio? Used Bog Roll? Humanity's Nadir?

--Jaylemurph

[Hanslune]

6 hours ago, jaylemurph said:

We  need to come up with a name for this shared Mario/Docy synergy -- Macy? Dorio? Used Bog Roll? Humanity's Nadir?

--Jaylemurph

The Pit of Marcy

[Trelane]

7 hours ago, Hanslune said:

The Pit of Marcy

….aaaaand we have a winner!!!!!!  *cue the Price is Right theme music*

Edited November 28, 2020 by Trelane

[docyabut2]

On ‎11‎/‎27‎/‎2020 at 11:57 AM, Thanos5150 said:

 

 a painted of a city

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/critias.html

Here was Poseidon's own temple which was a stadium in length, and half a stadium in width, and of a proportionate height, having a strange barbaric appearance.

 

A question why was this Atlantis`s  Poseidon's own temple described in  measurements in having a strange barbaric appearance. ?

what other buildings of architectural were made this way in the past?

 

 

[jaylemurph]

You can’t tell the difference between your own opinion and fact, yet you want someone to explicate minute points of Greek philosophical history to you?

If you really want to know, there’s a small army of teach yourself Greek texts out there, and most public universities have a program for seniors to take classes for free. 

If you’re not willing to work for knowledge, you don’t really want it. 

—Jaylemurph 

[docyabut2]

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by docyabut2
mistake

[docyabut2]

sorry a mistake

Edited November 28, 2020 by docyabut2

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, jaylemurph said:

You can’t tell the difference between your own opinion and fact, yet you want someone to explicate minute points of Greek philosophical history to you?

If you really want to know, there’s a small army of teach yourself Greek texts out there, and most public universities have a program for seniors to take classes for free. 

If you’re not willing to work for knowledge, you don’t really want it. 

—Jaylemurph 

Docyabut2 is an old woman. I think you should save your snide remarks to some of your peers.

She may be an 'easy' target for you, but at least she has the 'balls' to promote her ideas.

I have seen no post by you promoting some odd idea.

Why not? Because you are too afraid to be ridiculed.

 

 

 

Edited November 28, 2020 by Abramelin

[docyabut2]

Sorry all but what I'm trying to explained this city of Atlantis was not built 11,500 bc but why it was described as this painting  

All this including the zones and the bridge, which was the sixth part of a stadium in width, they surrounded by a stone wall on every side, placing towers and gates on the bridges where the sea passed in

 The entire area was densely crowded with habitations; and the canal and the largest of the harbours were full of vessels and merchants coming from all parts, who, from their numbers, kept up a multitudinous sound of human voices, and din and clatter of all sorts night and day.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/critias.html

 

 

 the painted of a city

[cormac mac airt]

55 minutes ago, docyabut2 said:

Sorry all but what I'm trying to explained this city of Atlantis was not built 11,500 bc but why it was described as this painting  

All this including the zones and the bridge, which was the sixth part of a stadium in width, they surrounded by a stone wall on every side, placing towers and gates on the bridges where the sea passed in

 The entire area was densely crowded with habitations; and the canal and the largest of the harbours were full of vessels and merchants coming from all parts, who, from their numbers, kept up a multitudinous sound of human voices, and din and clatter of all sorts night and day.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/critias.html

 

 

 the painted of a city

It was NOT described as this painting, that is solely your imagination at play. 
 

cormac

[Swede]

1 hour ago, docyabut2 said:

Sorry all but what I'm trying to explained this city of Atlantis was not built 11,500 bc but why it was described as this painting  

All this including the zones and the bridge, which was the sixth part of a stadium in width, they surrounded by a stone wall on every side, placing towers and gates on the bridges where the sea passed in

 The entire area was densely crowded with habitations; and the canal and the largest of the harbours were full of vessels and merchants coming from all parts, who, from their numbers, kept up a multitudinous sound of human voices, and din and clatter of all sorts night and day.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/critias.html

 

 

 the painted of a city

Docy, once again, going back to your imagery reference:

In the ancient Baths of Trajan, near the Colosseum, a worker accidentally scraped away part of a wall this spring, revealing a map some 2,000 years old (emphasis added).

http://www.cnn.com/TECH/science/9805/27/italy.mystery.map/index.html

As more experienced readers are aware, timelines are of significant importance. Temporal factors that you will effectively need to address:

• ·         The lifespan of Plato was, depending upon references, ~428/424 BC to ~ 348 BC. One may wish to consider the temporal gap between “some 2,000” and roughly 400 years earlier. How could Plato be describing a long destroyed “civilization” that was depicted, in detail, presumably some years/centuries after his death?

• ·         The lifespan of Solon was ~630 BC to ~560 BC.

• ·         The destruction of “Atlantis” purportedly occurred 9,000 years before Solon’s time or ~ 9600 BC/11,600 BP. Given the extensive time interval, how could the Romans have accurately depicted the structures of a “civilization” that they would have had no tangible means of awareness or understanding? Do consider the rather extensive research regarding the history of the Mediterranean region.

• ·         Lastly, one must consider the depicted architectural styles. Despite extensive archaeological investigations across the planet, there are simply no indications of similar structural practices dating to ~11,600 BP or, for that matter, until much later.

One could go on. Do you understand how your speculations do not well correlate to the available and supportable information?

.

[atalante]

On 11/28/2020 at 4:07 PM, docyabut2 said:

Sorry all but what I'm trying to explained this city of Atlantis was not built 11,500 bc .....

 

 

 

docyabut,

I agree that any "Atlantis war vs Zeus's Greeks" would be understood by Plato's original Greek readers to occur MUCH closer to what we now call 1500 BCE than to 9500 BCE.  

 

 

Plato described a "bronze-age" Atlantis society (i.e. an era of Atlas's Euhemerized titans) in a war with Greeks, during an era when Zeus was the supreme god of Greeks.  A "Bronze Age" can be a nebulous term, and potentially could be dated from various "modern" viewpoints.  But in Plato's era, Hesiod's discussion of the Bronze Age was the dominant concept of a Bronze Age. 

 

The theme of metallic "Ages of Man" was popular beginning in Hesiod's time, and remained popular among writers throughout the Greco-Roman period.   http://www.maicar.com/GML/AgesOfMan.html

 

I demonstrate below a method for assigning dates to Hesiod's Bronze Age, a method which had not changed much in the time of 4th century CE saint Jerome.  Therefore the following method for dating Bronze Age wars (such as the Atlantis war) would be plausible, and somewhat obvious, to readers throughout several centuries after Plato, until (at least) 4th Century CE Jerome. 

 

To correlate Hesiod's "Ages of Man" terminology with modern archaeology's names for human lifestyles:

 

 

Hesiod's             modern archaeology     reigning         consensus chronology for these Ages

 names                        names                 Greek god         by people in the Greco-Roman era

                                                               

 

Golden Age          hunter gatherers       Cronos (& titans)           1710-1674 BCE

 

Silver Age             neolithic crops             Zeus                           1674-1628 BCE

 

Copper Age           Chalcolithic                 Zeus                           1628-1472 BCE                   

 

Bronze/Heroic Age   Bronze                     Zeus                            1460-1103 BCE

 

Iron Age                   Iron Age                    Zeus                            1103 BCE to ?

 

 

According to Saint Jerome's 4th century CE chronology (as tabulated above), Zeus's Silver age is often supposed to begin approximately 1674 BC.   Presumably 1674 BC represents Zeus's victory in the famous mythical war against Greek Titans (i.e. against Atlas, Cronos, etc).  In the link below to Jerome's work, the correlating-comment for Curetes of Crete (who raised mythical baby Zeus) is positioned at approximately 250 years before the start of the 18th dynasty Egypt, i.e. 250 years before the start of Egypt's New Kingdom.  

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/jerome_chronicle_02_part1.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_Man

 

Contemporaries of Jerome would presume that Zeus's reign over Greek territory belonged much closer to 1500 BCE than to 9500 BCE.   And the Critias dialogue (Crit 121b,c) says that Zeus was reigning over proto-Greek territory at the time of the Atlantis war.

 

Thus a date for Plato's Atlantis war would be understood, by contemporaries of Plato, to be much closer to what we now call 1500 BCE than to 9500 BCE.  

Edited December 3, 2020 by atalante

[docyabut2]

3 hours ago, atalante said:

docyabut,

I agree that any "Atlantis war vs Zeus's Greeks" would be understood by Plato's original Greek readers to occur MUCH closer to what we now call 1500 BCE than to 9500 BCE.  

 

 

Plato described a "bronze-age" Atlantis society (i.e. an era of Atlas's Euhemerized titans) in a war with Greeks, during an era when Zeus was the supreme god of Greeks.  A "Bronze Age" can be a nebulous term, and potentially could be dated from various "modern" viewpoints.  But in Plato's era, Hesiod's discussion of the Bronze Age was the dominant concept of a Bronze Age. 

 

The theme of metallic "Ages of Man" was popular beginning in Hesiod's time, and remained popular among writers throughout the Greco-Roman period.   http://www.maicar.com/GML/AgesOfMan.html

 

I demonstrate below a method for assigning dates to Hesiod's Bronze Age, a method which had not changed much in the time of 4th century CE saint Jerome.  Therefore the following method for dating Bronze Age wars (such as the Atlantis war) would be plausible, and somewhat obvious, to readers throughout several centuries after Plato, until (at least) 4th Century CE Jerome. 

 

To correlate Hesiod's "Ages of Man" terminology with modern archaeology's names for human lifestyles:

 

 

Hesiod's             modern archaeology     reigning         consensus chronology for these Ages

 names                        names                 Greek god         by people in the Greco-Roman era

                                                               

 

Golden Age          hunter gatherers       Cronos (& titans)           1710-1674 BCE

 

Silver Age             neolithic crops             Zeus                           1674-1628 BCE

 

Copper Age           Chalcolithic                 Zeus                           1628-1472 BCE                   

 

Bronze/Heroic Age   Bronze                     Zeus                            1460-1103 BCE

 

Iron Age                   Iron Age                    Zeus                            1103 BCE to ?

 

 

According to Saint Jerome's 4th century CE chronology (as tabulated above), Zeus's Silver age is often supposed to begin approximately 1674 BC.   Presumably 1674 BC represents Zeus's victory in the famous mythical war against Greek Titans (i.e. against Atlas, Cronos, etc).  In the link below to Jerome's work, the correlating-comment for Curetes of Crete (who raised mythical baby Zeus) is positioned at approximately 250 years before the start of the 18th dynasty Egypt, i.e. 250 years before the start of Egypt's New Kingdom.  

http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/jerome_chronicle_02_part1.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ages_of_Man

 

Contemporaries of Jerome would presume that Zeus's reign over Greek territory belonged much closer to 1500 BCE than to 9500 BCE.   And the Critias dialogue (Crit 121b,c) says that Zeus was reigning over proto-Greek territory at the time of the Atlantis war.

 

Thus a date for Plato's Atlantis war would be understood, by contemporaries of Plato, to be much closer to what we now call 1500 BCE than to 9500 BCE.  

Let me begin by observing first of all, that nine thousand was the sum of years which had elapsed since the war which was said to have taken place between those who dwelt outside the Pillars of Heracles and all who dwelt within them; this war I am going to describe

 

 nine thousand was the sum of years ? could it only mean only 90 years before them ?.

Edited December 4, 2020 by docyabut2

[jaylemurph]

5 hours ago, atalante said:

Contemporaries of Jerome would presume that Zeus's reign over Greek territory belonged much closer to 1500 BCE than to 9500 BCE.   And the Critias dialogue (Crit 121b,c) says that Zeus was reigning over proto-Greek territory at the time of the Atlantis war. 

The contemporaries of Jerome who would have given a **** about what a Christian was writing, that is. A sticking point worth acknowledging. I'm not sure the overlap between Atlantidiots of the late fourth/early fifth century and Christian theologians was all too great.

--Jaylemurph

[atalante]

On 12/3/2020 at 7:27 PM, jaylemurph said:

The contemporaries of Jerome who would have given a **** about what a Christian was writing, that is. A sticking point worth acknowledging. I'm not sure the overlap between Atlantidiots of the late fourth/early fifth century and Christian theologians was all too great.

--Jaylemurph

Jaylemurph,

OK. Jerome was Christian, if you feel this detail should be acknowledged.

 

My points were: a) that a date for the "Bronze Age" was continuously being understood (until at least 400 CE) by the educated class of people (Christian or pagan) based on Hesiod's Ages of Man; and b) Greek people, in the

era up to (and including) Plato's time, accepted that Zeus had been a supreme deity of Greece since the Silver Age. 

 

Common sense indicates that readers of the Atlantis theme in Plato's dialogues, throughout 360 BCE to 400 CE, would have used this Hesiodic "Ages of Man" framework for dating a Bronze Age or Silver Age (Atlantian) war.

 

If you want to demonstrate some other way that was used to date the so-called "Bronze Age" and "Silver Age" - a method that was used by a large number of Greek people in Plato's era - I am willing to listen.   

[jaylemurph]

My point isn't about the continuity of the Bronze Age dating. My point is that Christian apologists and Greek (I'll use the word pagan here, although that's woefully inadequate as a useful term here) pagan philosophers -- particularly in the period Jerome was writing -- were not agreeing on very much, and the opinions of one were not of significant value to the other. (Maybe you don't read a lot of patristic writing? You don't read a lot any Classical Greek, either, so it's not like we're engaging in formally debating an academic topic...)

You're basically saying, "Most Doctor Who fans agree that the UNIT years were in the 1980s," while a) not bothering to acknowledge that a lot, maybe even most, Doctor Who fans date UNIT to the 1970s and b) people who are not Doctor Who fans don't give a single **** (or indeed even know or care there is UNIT dating controversy) whether it was the 1970s or 1980s.

And that's not even touching your problematic reference to "common sense" that even first year Classics majors (or any other writing-based field) would touch with a barge pole.

--Jaylemurph

[atalante]

On 12/5/2020 at 8:04 PM, jaylemurph said:

My point isn't about the continuity of the Bronze Age dating. My point is that Christian apologists and Greek (I'll use the word pagan here, although that's woefully inadequate as a useful term here) pagan philosophers -- particularly in the period Jerome was writing -- were not agreeing on very much, and the opinions of one were not of significant value to the other.

--Jaylemurph

Jaylemurph,

I am glad to hear that we now agree there was continuity of Bronze Age dating throughout the era from 360 BCE to the 4th century CE.

Moving on to your side-issue about few overlapping interactions between Christian apologists and Platonist philosophers in the 4th and 5th centuries CE: 

Your post #197 seems to understate interactions that were initiated by the Platonists of that era.

 

Proclus (in his Timaeus commentary) discussed his precursors' views about the Atlantis theme.  Proclus emphasized an abrupt rupture among Atlantis-writers, which occurred in the era of Porphyry and Iamblicus.  Proclus's dating of this rupture coincides with the outbreak of 4th century Holy Trinity squabbles (i.e. 3-in-One) among Christian bible thumpers (although Proclus tactfully did not mention the trinitarian bible thumpers).

according to Proclus:

a)  Porphyry (and his predecessors Numenius and Origen) had said the Atlantean war involved demons from Egypt's far western Amduat that made war against souls on their way to regeneration.

b)  Iamblicus (and his successors Syrianus and Proclus himself) changed to treating Plato's Atlantean war as a philosophical demonstration that the One is equivalent to the Many.

 

So the neo-Platonists were interacting, and trying to harmonize, with the Christian 3-in-One trinitarians (although Proclus was not precise about the interactions). 

[Thanos5150]

On 12/3/2020 at 12:51 PM, atalante said:

Hesiod's             modern archaeology     reigning         consensus chronology for these Ages

 names                        names                 Greek god         by people in the Greco-Roman era

                                                               

 

Golden Age          hunter gatherers       Cronos (& titans)           1710-1674 BCE

 

Silver Age             neolithic crops             Zeus                           1674-1628 BCE

 

Copper Age           Chalcolithic                 Zeus                           1628-1472 BCE                   

 

Bronze/Heroic Age   Bronze                     Zeus                            1460-1103 BCE

 

Iron Age                   Iron Age                    Zeus                            1103 BCE to ?

 

 

Contemporaries of Jerome would presume that Zeus's reign over Greek territory belonged much closer to 1500 BCE than to 9500 BCE.   And the Critias dialogue (Crit 121b,c) says that Zeus was reigning over proto-Greek territory at the time of the Atlantis war.

 

Thus a date for Plato's Atlantis war would be understood, by contemporaries of Plato, to be much closer to what we now call 1500 BCE than to 9500 BCE.  

 

4,600yr Old Greek "Pyramid" Island:

Giant marble pyramid-shaped island complex rising from sea uncovered, revealing secrets of ancient Greece’s origins

Keros

Keros: Unexpected archaeological finds in the heart of the Aegean

Researchers Uncover Ancient Greek Island’s Complex Plumbing System

Cycladic culture

Mycenae

Minoan civilization

The Greeks knew nothing of their heritage? 

[atalante]

On 12/7/2020 at 8:51 PM, Thanos5150 said:

 

4,600yr Old Greek "Pyramid" Island:

Giant marble pyramid-shaped island complex rising from sea uncovered, revealing secrets of ancient Greece’s origins

Keros

Keros: Unexpected archaeological finds in the heart of the Aegean

Researchers Uncover Ancient Greek Island’s Complex Plumbing System

Cycladic culture

Mycenae

Minoan civilization

The Greeks knew nothing of their heritage? 

Thanos,

Simultaneous with the most powerful period at Dhaskalio/Keros -- the Argolid region of Peloponesia had an especially advanced social group at Lerna, at a site that is famous for its "House of Tiles".  The people associated with this 2700-2200 BC "House of Tiles" phase of Lerna III were not represented in Greek Mythology; i.e. the House of Tiles people had been forgotten in Greek folklore.  (The Shaft Grave phase, Lerna VI, is outside the scope of this post.  But Lerna VII did leave its counterpoint in Greek mythology - where descendants of a mythical explorer/colonizer named Danaus were said to colonize Lerna from Egypt.  A Lerna VII connection between Egypt and Greece has been identified by inscriptions at the Malkata palace of Egypt's pharaoh Amenhotep III.) 

 

https://www.argolisculture.gr/en/list-of-monuments/archaeological-site-of-lerna-house-of-tiles-stone-enclosure/

The heyday of Lerna is associated with the Early Helladic II phase (Lerna III: 2700-2200 BC), at which the settlement acquired a strong wall with a gate and two towers on the south side. Among the rectangular houses of this period a monumental building stands out, 12 x 25 m in size, with the main entrance on the east and a row of rooms running East-West and corridors on its long sides. It was a two-story construction built with stone foundations and a superstructure of unbaked brick, and it had a tile roof. Many o them were found in the destruction level and gave the buildings its name ‘House of Tiles’. In the southernmost of the two small rooms that could be accessed only from the outside of the building were found more than 150 clay sealings bearing the impressions of some 60 seals. These clay lumps, with which the contents of containers were sealed, testify to the existence of an early urban system of central authority. 

Edited December 10, 2020 by atalante