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Abramelin

Homo Erectus or - Neanderthalensis in America

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Abramelin

Many years ago (1991) I visited Peru. It was a vacation of 6 weeks. The best 6 weeks of my life. Back then I felt like a Dutch version of Indiana Jones, heh. Well, except that I had no goal of finding a magic crystal or something.

Ok, to make a very long story short, I will post a link to a many years old post about something I discovered in a centuries old monastery in Arequipa, Peru:

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/134193-american-atlantis/page/33/?tab=comments#comment-2653304

Some will like this, because 'a' Legioromanes showed up, who was noone else but 'Marduk'.

Edit:

Lol, I forgot to add the question: did anyone visit that monastery in the years past?

If so, what can you tell us about your visit?

 

Edited by Abramelin
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Manwon Lender
3 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Many years ago (1991) I visited Peru. It was a vacation of 6 weeks. The best 6 weeks of my life. Back then I felt like a Dutch version of Indiana Jones, heh. Well, except that I had no goal of finding a magic crystal or something.

Ok, to make a very long story short, I will post a link to a many years old post about something I discovered in a centuries old monastery in Arequipa, Peru:

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/134193-american-atlantis/page/33/?tab=comments#comment-2653304

Some will like this, because 'a' Legioromanes showed up, who was noone else but 'Marduk'.

Edit:

Lol, I forgot to add the question: did anyone visit that monastery in the years past?

If so, what can you tell us about your visit?

 

The problem with Homo Erectus or Neanderthals making to the Americas is the fact that during the time they existed the Americas were separated from the rest of the world by water, in other words the Americas were like today a gigantic island. Since commonly excepted scientific opinions agree that Africa was the cradle of life concerning human ansestry and all life forms that would evolve into humans started there, there would have been no way for primitive human ansestors to get there.

JIMO

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Nobu
5 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Many years ago (1991) I visited Peru. It was a vacation of 6 weeks. The best 6 weeks of my life. Back then I felt like a Dutch version of Indiana Jones, heh. Well, except that I had no goal of finding a magic crystal or something.

Ok, to make a very long story short, I will post a link to a many years old post about something I discovered in a centuries old monastery in Arequipa, Peru:

https://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/134193-american-atlantis/page/33/?tab=comments#comment-2653304

Some will like this, because 'a' Legioromanes showed up, who was noone else but 'Marduk'.

Edit:

Lol, I forgot to add the question: did anyone visit that monastery in the years past?

If so, what can you tell us about your visit?

 

This?
FFieaI.th.jpg

 

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jmccr8
2 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

The problem with Homo Erectus or Neanderthals making to the Americas is the fact that during the time they existed the Americas were separated from the rest of the world by water, in other words the Americas were like today a gigantic island. Since commonly excepted scientific opinions agree that Africa was the cradle of life concerning human ansestry and all life forms that would evolve into humans started there, there would have been no way for primitive human ansestors to get there.

JIMO

Hi Manwam

 

H.Erectus made it to Java a million years ago so travelling along coastlines and travelling in a different direction isn't unbelievable and one should consider geographic opportunities during those times, personally Denisovans lived in the Urals and had opportunities given time, weather and other conditions to have made it there.

jmccr8

Edited by jmccr8
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Jon the frog
48 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Manwam

 

H.Erectus made it to Java a million years ago so travelling along coastlines and travelling in a different direction isn't unbelievable and one should consider geographic opportunities during those times, personally Denisovans lived in the Urals and had opportunities given time, weather and other conditions to have made it there.

jmccr8

An Ice age was needed to make them cross to America on foot and they would probably need warm cloth to survive. Not sure if the Bearing sea have been walkable before the last glaciation (before 115000 years ago) to let them pass ?

Edited by Jon the frog
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jmccr8
4 minutes ago, Jon the frog said:

An Ice age was needed to make them cross to America on foot and they would probably need warm cloth to survive. Not sure if the Bearing sea have been walkable before the last glaciation (before 115000 years ago) to let them pass ?

Hi Jon

That works if that is your only criteria how do you think they got to Java if they didn't use watercraft and is a separate topic of use over time goes of archaic hominids?

jmccr8

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Jon the frog
5 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Jon

That works if that is your only criteria how do you think they got to Java if they didn't use watercraft and is a separate topic of use over time goes of archaic hominids?

jmccr8

Crossing to Java is certainly an easier journey, tens of km in hot weather and water compared to hundreds of km in icy water...

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Manwon Lender
2 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Manwam

 

H.Erectus made it to Java a million years ago so travelling along coastlines and travelling in a different direction isn't unbelievable and one should consider geographic opportunities during those times, personally Denisovans lived in the Urals and had opportunities given time, weather and other conditions to have made it there.

jmccr8

Homo Erectus died out approximately 100,000'years ago, Deniovans died out at approximately the same time Neanderthal, disappeared approximately 30,000 years ago. It is true that the land mass called Beringia rose out of what is now Ocean many times through history.  as I have listed below:

During the Pleistocene epoch, global cooling led periodically to the expansion of glaciers and lowering of sea levels. This created land connections in various regions around the globe.[19] Today, the average water depth of the Bering Strait is 40–50 m (130–160 ft), therefore the land bridge opened when the sea level dropped more than 50 m (160 ft) below the current level.[20][21] A reconstruction of the sea-level history of the region indicated that a seaway existed from c. 135,000 – c. 70,000 BP, a land bridge from c. 70,000 – c. 60,000 BP, intermittent connection from c. 60,000 – c. 30,000 BP, a land bridge from c. 30,000 – c. 11,000 BP, followed by a Holocene sea-level rise that reopened the strait.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beringia

The oldest cousins of Native Americans and Alaskans are proven to date back to the oldest human remains discovered in Siberia, which are carbon dated to between 20,000 and 14,000 years ago. The site where these remains were located is call Ust-Kyakhta-3, at this site the remains of a man were discovered that genetically matches all groups of Native Americans, his remains were discovered in Siberia approximately 4500 kilometers from Beringia. At different location the remains of a women was discover that shared about 2/3rds of her Genome with Alaskan and Native American populations. The women lived approximately 3200 kilometers from beringia so with these remains and others the following:

This suggests the source population from which Native Americans emerged occupied a vast region of northeastern Eurasia, Krause says.

That impressive range, in turn, implies that the group directly ancestral to Native Americans became genetically isolated in Beringia, not in Siberia, where they had been moving around for thousands of years, Raff says. Today, the people near Lake Baikal have virtually none of the genetic hallmarks of that older population, indicating it was replaced by migrants of primarily northeast Asian ancestry about 10,000 years ago.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/oldest-cousin-native-americans-found-russia

While there's was a discovery of Denisovan remains a finger bone in a cave in Siberia and there was DNA extracted from the bone identifying as Denisovans, native Americans and Alaskan don't share DNA with Denisovans. But the real tragedy is that since the discover no other bones have been discovered in Siberia, and the finger has disappeared without trace. Without that bone it impossible to prove if the DNA extracted actually came from a bone discovered in Siberia. Also since Denisovans were most closely related to Neanderthals and no Neanderthal DNA is found in any Native American populations, it makes it seem even more unlikely that either species crossed into the Americas.

But, with new discoveries that may be proven wrong, only time can prove or disprove these theories?

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02647-9

 

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jmccr8
Just now, Jon the frog said:

Crossing to Java is certainly an easier journey, tens of km in hot weather and water compared to hundreds of km in icy water...

Hi Jon

Following a coast and venturing beyond sight of eye are  not the same type of excursion. The fact that H.Erectus was able to communicate to other like others what was coming and needed to get there as a long standing population so to me you will have to show greater cause.:D

jmccr8

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jmccr8
1 minute ago, Manwon Lender said:

Homo Erectus died out approximately 100,000'years ago, Deniovans died out at approximately the same time Neanderthal, disappeared approximately 30,000 years ago. It is true that the land mass called Beringia rose out of what is now Ocean many times through history.  as I have listed below:

During the Pleistocene epoch, global cooling led periodically to the expansion of glaciers and lowering of sea levels. This created land connections in various regions around the globe.[19] Today, the average water depth of the Bering Strait is 40–50 m (130–160 ft), therefore the land bridge opened when the sea level dropped more than 50 m (160 ft) below the current level.[20][21] A reconstruction of the sea-level history of the region indicated that a seaway existed from c. 135,000 – c. 70,000 BP, a land bridge from c. 70,000 – c. 60,000 BP, intermittent connection from c. 60,000 – c. 30,000 BP, a land bridge from c. 30,000 – c. 11,000 BP, followed by a Holocene sea-level rise that reopened the strait.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beringia

The oldest cousins of Native Americans and Alaskans are proven to date back to the oldest human remains discovered in Siberia, which are carbon dated to between 20,000 and 14,000 years ago. The site where these remains were located is call Ust-Kyakhta-3, at this site the remains of a man were discovered that genetically matches all groups of Native Americans, his remains were discovered in Siberia approximately 4500 kilometers from Beringia. At different location the remains of a women was discover that shared about 2/3rds of her Genome with Alaskan and Native American populations. The women lived approximately 3200 kilometers from beringia so with these remains and others the following:

This suggests the source population from which Native Americans emerged occupied a vast region of northeastern Eurasia, Krause says.

That impressive range, in turn, implies that the group directly ancestral to Native Americans became genetically isolated in Beringia, not in Siberia, where they had been moving around for thousands of years, Raff says. Today, the people near Lake Baikal have virtually none of the genetic hallmarks of that older population, indicating it was replaced by migrants of primarily northeast Asian ancestry about 10,000 years ago.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/05/oldest-cousin-native-americans-found-russia

While there's was a discovery of Denisovan remains a finger bone in a cave in Siberia and there was DNA extracted from the bone identifying as Denisovans, native Americans and Alaskan don't share DNA with Denisovans. But the real tragedy is that since the discover no other bones have been discovered in Siberia, and the finger has disappeared without trace. Without that bone it impossible to prove if the DNA extracted actually came from a bone discovered in Siberia. Also since Denisovans were most closely related to Neanderthals and no Neanderthal DNA is found in any Native American populations, it makes it seem even more unlikely that either species crossed into the Americas.

But, with new discoveries that may be proven wrong, only time can prove or disprove these theories?

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02647-9

 

Hi Manwon

Presently getting plastered so will a more detailed response tomorrow.;)

jmccr8

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Manwon Lender
19 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Jon

That works if that is your only criteria how do you think they got to Java if they didn't use watercraft and is a separate topic of use over time goes of archaic hominids?

jmccr8

Actually there was a land bridge from Asia to what is known as Java that was formed during Ice Ages in the area, that allowed early humans and ice age mammals migrate to Java according to New Findings from 2019. 

https://www.innovations-report.com/earth-sciences/an-ice-age-savannah-corridor-let-large-mammals-spread-across-southeast-asia/

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Manwon Lender
6 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Manwon

Presently getting plastered so will a more detailed response tomorrow.;)

jmccr8

Please don't feel like that's what I am trying to do,because that isn't my intention at all. I am only trying to add constructive information to this thread, I would not be surprised if End getting hammered by you later in it!!:)

Peace

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Jon the frog
2 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Actually there was a land bridge from Asia to what is known as Java that was formed during Ice Ages in the area, that allowed early humans and ice age mammals migrate to Java according to New Findings from 2019. 

https://www.innovations-report.com/earth-sciences/an-ice-age-savannah-corridor-let-large-mammals-spread-across-southeast-asia/

A walk in the park for them ! lol

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jmccr8
3 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

Please don't feel like that's what I am trying to do,because that isn't my intention at all. I am only trying to add constructive information to this thread, I would not be surprised if End getting hammered by you later in it!!:)

Peace

Hi Manwon

More likely get plastered with me than by me.:lol:

I don't take offence but when I drink cap locks seem to do their own thing :mellow:

 Yes a discussion invites all perspectives which is why I gave an unevidenced opinion.:D

jmccr8

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Manwon Lender
1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Manwon

More likely get plastered with me than by me.:lol:

I don't take offence but when I drink cap locks seem to do their own thing :mellow:

 Yes a discussion invites all perspectives which is why I gave an unevidenced opinion.:D

jmccr8

The same thing use to happen to me when I was drinking wth the cap locks, dam it must be a conspiracy :w00t::wacko: or maybe it just requires drinking more so it doesn't matter at all!!:P:tu:

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Mellon Man

Thoughts on the Cerutti site?

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Abramelin
11 hours ago, Nobu said:

This?
FFieaI.th.jpg

 

Must be; there's only one with that name in Arequipa.

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Swede
3 hours ago, Mellon Man said:

Thoughts on the Cerutti site?

The PI is legit. We have mutual acquaintances and he has conducted some other mid-continent research in regards to fractured mammoth remains, though they date quite later than Cerutti.

That said, am, for a number of reasons, a bit skeptical about his evaluation of the Cerutti remains.

.

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Abramelin

The next is not a science site, but the one who created it, made an 'interesting' remark:

https://arizonadailyindependent.com/2017/10/15/comments-from-the-chemo-couch-5-were-all-neanderthals/

"There is some very speculative evidence that at some point those Neanderthals – usually depicted as “cave men”— may have crossed oceans to reach the Americas.  One study dates broken mastodon bones and possible stone tools in California to 130,000 years ago.  There are credible reports of Neanderthal-like skulls having been found in North and South America years ago."

 

Edited by Abramelin
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cormac mac airt
3 hours ago, Abramelin said:

The next is not a science site, but the one who created it, made an 'interesting' remark:

https://arizonadailyindependent.com/2017/10/15/comments-from-the-chemo-couch-5-were-all-neanderthals/

"There is some very speculative evidence that at some point those Neanderthals – usually depicted as “cave men”— may have crossed oceans to reach the Americas.  One study dates broken mastodon bones and possible stone tools in California to 130,000 years ago.  There are credible reports of Neanderthal-like skulls having been found in North and South America years ago."

 

One has to wonder, credible by who’s standards? 
 

cormac

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Mellon Man
9 hours ago, Swede said:

That said, am, for a number of reasons, a bit skeptical about his evaluation of the Cerutti remains.

.

Thoughts on their presented hypothesis? 
 

 

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Mellon Man
1 hour ago, cormac mac airt said:

One has to wonder, credible by who’s standards? 
 

cormac

Given there’s no referencing, are you familiar with these claims? Never heard of any interpretations, suggesting the discovery of fossilised Neanderthal craniums, in the Americas. 

Edited by Mellon Man
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cormac mac airt
4 minutes ago, Mellon Man said:

Given there’s no referencing, are you familiar with these claims? Never heard of any interpretations, suggesting the discoveries of fossilised Neanderthal craniums, in the Americas. 

The claims themselves? Yes, but due to the lack of definitive evidence that ANY member of the genus Homo is/was responsible for alleged artifacts predating the LGM, as opposed to a likely misidentification of geofacts, they remain unevidenced and potentially baseless speculation. 
 

cormac

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jmccr8
20 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

Actually there was a land bridge from Asia to what is known as Java that was formed during Ice Ages in the area, that allowed early humans and ice age mammals migrate to Java according to New Findings from 2019. 

https://www.innovations-report.com/earth-sciences/an-ice-age-savannah-corridor-let-large-mammals-spread-across-southeast-asia/

Hi Manwon

Yes there were land bridges but they still had to travel open waters with no line of sight and organize groups large enough to maintain a population when they got to Java which for me indicates a level of communication and reasoning.

Denisovans lived in the Alti mountain and that was a flood path for mega floods during the last ice age which is why I think that there may have been a greater population than currently understood. Because they were cold climate adapted I don't think that them making it to the Americas is impossible but that is just my opinion.

jmccr8

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