Ellen Greenberg Stabbed 20 Times, Homicide or Suicide?

[LucidElement]

I was watching Nancy Grace the other night and she had an episode detailing the mysteries surrounding Ellen Greenberg's death.  Ellen Greenberg was a 27 year old women who apparently stabbed herself 20x " — 10 on her neck and head, including two wounds that penetrated deep in her brain."

Her fiance came home from the gym and noticed the door was locked. When he got in, Ellen was found dead on the kitchen floor. The case was ruled a homicide and then later changed to suicide.

Recently this case has been brought back into the spotlight as doctors are starting to look at this scenario differently then others did at the time.

I personally find it hard to believe that anyone could stab themself 20x, ESPECIALLY 10x in the neck and then to keep going into the brain a couple times.

Below are a couple links that outline the story. I would be interested in hearing back from others what they think happened, if you think it sounds more plausible that it was a homicide verse a suicide.

LInk 1: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8332995/Parents-27-year-old-teacher-stabbed-dead-say-murder-not-suicide.html

Link 2: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/philadelphia-teacher-death-suicide-ellen-greenberg-parents-say-murder-48-hours/

 

And to add; new technological 3D evidence.

Quote

"New among the evidence cited in the Greenberg family’s lawsuit is a 3D anatomical re-creation conducted by BioMx Consulting of Norfolk, Va., based on the Philadelphia ME’s findings. It illustrates the size, depth, and angle of each of the wounds on Greenberg’s body, Podraza said

“It’s impossible that she could have inflicted all 20 wounds and I think it’s tellingly demonstrated in this re-creation,” he said.

https://www.inquirer.com/news/philadelphia/ellen-greenberg-homicide-suicide-mystery-schoolteacher-philadelphia-20191016.html

 

 

 

[+Desertrat56]

I think it is a cover up of a murder.  Why would they change it from homicide to suicide with such weak evidence if it was not a coverup.  The coverup could be why she was murdered as well as who murdered her.  

[+susieice]

25 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I think it is a cover up of a murder.  Why would they change it from homicide to suicide with such weak evidence if it was not a coverup.  The coverup could be why she was murdered as well as who murdered her.  

I have to agree this was some sort of a cover up to protect someone. The stab wounds to the head, especially to the brain, and neck would have put her on the floor barely conscious, if at all. The stabbing continued to both sides of the body with the front being last as the knife was found in her chest. The bruising is interesting also as the ME said some were in various stages of healing. Some of them had been inflicted at an earlier period in time.

[+susieice]

Here is the ME's autopsy report. I'm looking to see if I can find original reports from the time of her death.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/5759528-Autopsy-RPT.html

I can find her obituary but no news reports of the death from 2011 are online that I can see. These could provide clues of what was found at the time of the discovery of the body that got the case originally ruled as homicide. Since I'm not far from Philly, this would be somewhat local news to me. 

https://obits.pennlive.com/obituaries/pennlive/obituary.aspx?n=ellen-rae-greenberg&pid=148142563

Edited November 18, 2020 by susieice

[+susieice]

I found this report from last year in the Philadelphia Inquirer. Apparently, on January 26, 2011, the day she died, we were having a nor'easter and Ellen's school had closed early. So her fiance went out to the apartment complex gym. He also lived with her in the sixth floor apartment so he knew just what kind of locks were on the door. It contains his texts to her when she didn't open the door. This is interesting. It describes the scene. She had a "nearly pristine white towel" in her left hand. Now how can that be? She didn't drop it as she savagely stabbed herself? In the back of her neck and head? She would have had to contort her body somehow to achieve that. Then proceed to stab herself in the front of the body, leaving the knife in her chest. She was found propped up against the cabinets. So she sat down and didn't fall? Police noticed the snow on the apartment balcony was undisturbed. No kidding. Who could get up the side of the building to a sixth floor balcony? Why would they look and note that? It also says police looked at Ellen's computers and found nothing on them indicative of suicide and noted that in their investigation report. This article is interesting indeed. It contradicts things from the earlier links that say they did find things on her computer. She was having issues at school that she wouldn't discuss with anyone. Whatever they were, people were saying she was full of anxiety from them. They checked her fiance's key fob records and they panned out. Video showed no unauthorized people entering the building during the time of Ellen's death. A lot in here you need to read.

https://www.inquirer.com/crime/a/ellen-greenberg-death-suicide-homicide-philadelphia-mystery-20190316.html

Edited November 18, 2020 by susieice

[+susieice]

I did a lot of editing Desertrat. You may want to reread above post.

[+susieice]

Here's an archived 2011 report on the death from Channel 6 Action News, which is the ABC station in Philadelphia.

https://6abc.com/archive/7926882/

[+susieice]

Here's another archived report from WHYY, the local PBS station from Philly. I've got my questions about Goldberg.

https://whyy.org/articles/neighbor-greenbergs-voice-stood-out-in-a-crowd/

Edited November 18, 2020 by susieice

[+Desertrat56]

7 minutes ago, susieice said:

I did a lot of editing Desertrat. You may want to reread above post.

I read it now, and I think you summed it up except that right off the bat the police called it suicide and somehow convinced the ME to change his/her findings.

[+susieice]

14 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I read it now, and I think you summed it up except that right off the bat the police called it suicide and somehow convinced the ME to change his/her findings.

Original reports can conflict with later accounts. That's why I looked to see how this was reported at the time it actually occurred. I don't recall this case, but I was working long hours in 2011 and didn't have much time to watch news reports. In a nor'easter, I was probably stuck at work.

I have my questions about Goldberg. His going to the gym doesn't really exonerate him. His texts to her express anger. From Inquirer link:

Goldberg sent her increasingly frustrated texts over 22 minutes, according to the ME’s investigation report:

>>READ THE DOCUMENTS: Expert reports, autopsy records and more

“Hello”

“open the door”

“what r u doin”

“im getting p***ed”

“hello”

“you better have an excuse”

“what the ****”

“ahhh”

“u have no idea”

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by susieice

[+susieice]

According to this, Goldberg was a producer for a local news affiliate. I wonder which one? This is interesting.

https://art19.com/shows/generation-why-podcast/episodes/1c344a80-81b5-4683-bd19-b51cc0029271

[+susieice]

Sounds like this same Samuel Goldberg married 3 years later and was a features producer at NBC Sports. I'm beginning to really wonder who was protected here.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/12/fashion/weddings/caroline-shnay-samuel-goldberg.html

Edited November 18, 2020 by susieice

[+susieice]

I find myself agreeing with this reddit poster. I also feel that Ellen Greenberg was an abused woman. Maybe this was the source of her anxiety and not work, like she told people. The Philadelphia Inquirer reports contradicts the newer reports saying she had searched suicide on her computer. The initial report says police checked the computers and found nothing and there was no suicide note left. They are also linking to the Inquirer story. Inside the story are links to other 2011 reports. The Inquirer report is very long but it's so important to read the entire thing. It contains a wealth of information from back then up to what is happening now. Way too much to put in here. I also see that Larry Krasner was involved in this at some point. He is the current, despised, DA of Philadelphia, who is well known for cover ups and dropping criminal cases. He could certainly help her parents now if he chose to.

Investigators looked at Ellen’s laptop computers and found nothing indicative of suicide, the investigation report said. She didn’t leave behind a note.

 

.

This is so bizarre and there are definitely fair arguments for both sides. Although, I do feel that her sudden change in behaviour, the bruises and the text messages her partner sent indicate she was most likely being abused. They were very close to their wedding date and it’s very common for abuse to start once the couple is married or close to even if it was perfect before. It seems bizarre that you would stab or cut yourself in the back of your neck and I assume that the angle of the cuts would determine if they came from you reaching behind yourself or from someone most likely taller than you cutting down from behind, I didn’t see mention of that. I also find it bizarre that someone searching for painless ways to commit suicide would end up doing it this way? There are so many other ways this could have been attempted or achieved without painfully stabbing yourself 20 times. In saying that though I guess unless you’re in that state of mind you just don’t know, while she was cutting her fruit something could have just snapped inside her and she went for it with whatever was close by.

I’m just rambling here because I can’t make sense of it and I don’t think anyone could truly say for sure.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 18, 2020 by susieice

[LucidElement]

23 hours ago, susieice said:

I found this report from last year in the Philadelphia Inquirer. Apparently, on January 26, 2011, the day she died, we were having a nor'easter and Ellen's school had closed early. So her fiance went out to the apartment complex gym. He also lived with her in the sixth floor apartment so he knew just what kind of locks were on the door. It contains his texts to her when she didn't open the door. This is interesting. It describes the scene. She had a "nearly pristine white towel" in her left hand. Now how can that be? She didn't drop it as she savagely stabbed herself? In the back of her neck and head? She would have had to contort her body somehow to achieve that. Then proceed to stab herself in the front of the body, leaving the knife in her chest. She was found propped up against the cabinets. So she sat down and didn't fall? Police noticed the snow on the apartment balcony was undisturbed. No kidding. Who could get up the side of the building to a sixth floor balcony? Why would they look and note that? It also says police looked at Ellen's computers and found nothing on them indicative of suicide and noted that in their investigation report. This article is interesting indeed. It contradicts things from the earlier links that say they did find things on her computer. She was having issues at school that she wouldn't discuss with anyone. Whatever they were, people were saying she was full of anxiety from them. They checked her fiance's key fob records and they panned out. Video showed no unauthorized people entering the building during the time of Ellen's death. A lot in here you need to read.

https://www.inquirer.com/crime/a/ellen-greenberg-death-suicide-homicide-philadelphia-mystery-20190316.html

Have you ever seen the movie "The Life of David Gale"?

This sounds like something from that movie.

And when i read the part that she stabbed herself in the brain a couple times then just kept stabbing away at herself, i thought no way she did that to herself. As far as the medical examiner changing it quickly to a suicide is beyond me. I believe the case is reopened now and some further trial is set

[+susieice]

3 minutes ago, LucidElement said:

Have you ever seen the movie "The Life of David Gale"?

This sounds like something from that movie.

And when i read the part that she stabbed herself in the brain a couple times then just kept stabbing away at herself, i thought no way she did that to herself. As far as the medical examiner changing it quickly to a suicide is beyond me. I believe the case is reopened now and some further trial is set

It's my suspicion that it had something to do with the producer boyfriend. He was the one who had access to her and the apartment. I hope they research things better now that the case has been reopened and get answers for her family. 

[Regi]

The evidence that convinces me of suicide, in other words, which evidence weights the most, is the many shallow stab wounds and no such defensive injuries and those two circumstances taken together, along with the mental health history. 

[LucidElement]

So no way someone can climb up 6 feet to the balcony kill her and then scale back down? Maybe smooth the snow back over to make it look like it wasnt disrupted?

Such a BIZARRE mystery. I couldn't image being a fly on the wall watching this girl stab herself and twist and turn like Linda Blair in the exorcist.

[+Desertrat56]

21 minutes ago, LucidElement said:

So no way someone can climb up 6 feet to the balcony kill her and then scale back down? Maybe smooth the snow back over to make it look like it wasnt disrupted?

Such a BIZARRE mystery. I couldn't image being a fly on the wall watching this girl stab herself and twist and turn like Linda Blair in the exorcist.

six Stories, not six feet.

[LucidElement]

On 11/19/2020 at 1:35 PM, Desertrat56 said:

six Stories, not six feet.

lol thats what i meant hahah

[+susieice]

On 11/19/2020 at 1:13 PM, LucidElement said:

So no way someone can climb up 6 feet to the balcony kill her and then scale back down? Maybe smooth the snow back over to make it look like it wasnt disrupted?

Such a BIZARRE mystery. I couldn't image being a fly on the wall watching this girl stab herself and twist and turn like Linda Blair in the exorcist.

I was trying to imagine how she could have contorted herself enough to get the force it would take to breech the skull and put the blade into her brain a couple of times and pull it back out. That should have rendered her unconscious or incapacitated in and of itself, much less start stabbing the front of her body and leaving the knife in her chest. The pain must have been horrific.

Edited November 20, 2020 by susieice

[Regi]

On 11/19/2020 at 12:13 PM, LucidElement said:

So no way someone can climb up 6 feet to the balcony kill her and then scale back down? Maybe smooth the snow back over to make it look like it wasnt disrupted?

It isn't that there's no way, it's that the evidence shows that that didn't happen; nobody navigated that balcony.

(Plus, there's no evidence of snow tampering  )

On 11/19/2020 at 11:10 AM, susieice said:

It's my suspicion that it had something to do with the producer boyfriend. He was the one who had access to her and the apartment. 

To the contrary, the fiance's account of events, including having been locked out of the apartment, is fully supported. 

16 hours ago, susieice said:

I was trying to imagine how she could have contorted herself enough to get the force it would take to breech the skull and put the blade into her brain a couple of times and pull it back out.

There was no such wound. 

[JenTF]

The case is being reviewed again after Ellen Greenberg's death was ruled as a suicide. This is despite Ellen being stabbed 20 times with one wound found on the back of her neck. There is also talk about how her ex-fiance may have had something to do with it but was able to cover it up due to his family political ties and being involved with the police.

Article explaining how the case is being reopened.