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Jodie.Lynne

Beliefs... everyone has them

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Jodie.Lynne

I think we can all agree that 'beliefs' and 'facts' are two entirely different species of animal.

One is based on one's personal desires and wishful thinking; and the other is based in reality.

One doesn't have to 'believe' in gravity to know it is an actuality.  If anyone thinks otherwise, please take an elevator to the roof of the tallest building nearby, step off the edge, and report back to us.

One doesn't 'believe' in the theory of evolution, one either accepts the premise as valid, or one does not. And if one rejects the premise, then THEY have the burden of showing an alternative theory that works WITHOUT relying on magic or imaginary actors.

A belief may be comforting, but in and of itself, a belief cannot prove itself to be true merely by relying on a circular argument ( i.e. "I know the bible is true, because the bible tells me so" ).  OR by assertion ( i.e. "The sky is blue, because it is!" ), or because that was what was taught to you; or the admonition that "everyone knows...."

Some folk believe the Earth to be flat, or hollow, or both, and reject the science that proves them wrong, because "belief..."   Or that the level of melatonin in one's dermis can indicate who is the 'superior' human. Or that what genitalia rests between one's loins, determines who the 'better' gender is.

 

So, the ultimate question is.... Is 'belief' a valid path to truth, or not?

 

 

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DebDandelion

Very interesting, question for me would be how the person came to their belief. For it is the path to the belief that could be altered, not the belief itself. If one could alter the path that lead to that belief (and if they are willing to accept said alteration) one can change the belief. 

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zep73
6 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

So, the ultimate question is.... Is 'belief' a valid path to truth, or not?

Of course not. Belief is the thing that tethers us to an unmanageable chaotic, world, full of lies. We all need to feel firm ground beneath our feet, and belief gives us that, emotionally.
Once we find a belief that makes sense to us, we have a tendency to become loyal to it, even if evidence does not support it, or it is obviously flawed. For that reason, we will never know the truth. Never.

 

8 minutes ago, DebDandelion said:

Very interesting, question for me would be how the person came to their belief. For it is the path to the belief that could be altered, not the belief itself. If one could alter the path that lead to that belief (and if they are willing to accept said alteration) one can change the belief. 

No one can change a person's belief, for the reason I wrote above. The loyalty of a believer is incredibly strong, and can only be changed by the believer themself. A feeling of betrayal could cause such a shift, but sometimes not even that is enough.

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docyabut2
14 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I think we can all agree that 'beliefs' and 'facts' are two entirely different species of animal.

One is based on one's personal desires and wishful thinking; and the other is based in reality.

One doesn't have to 'believe' in gravity to know it is an actuality.  If anyone thinks otherwise, please take an elevator to the roof of the tallest building nearby, step off the edge, and report back to us.

One doesn't 'believe' in the theory of evolution, one either accepts the premise as valid, or one does not. And if one rejects the premise, then THEY have the burden of showing an alternative theory that works WITHOUT relying on magic or imaginary actors.

A belief may be comforting, but in and of itself, a belief cannot prove itself to be true merely by relying on a circular argument ( i.e. "I know the bible is true, because the bible tells me so" ).  OR by assertion ( i.e. "The sky is blue, because it is!" ), or because that was what was taught to you; or the admonition that "everyone knows...."

Some folk believe the Earth to be flat, or hollow, or both, and reject the science that proves them wrong, because "belief..."   Or that the level of melatonin in one's dermis can indicate who is the 'superior' human. Or that what genitalia rests between one's loins, determines who the 'better' gender is.

 

So, the ultimate question is.... Is 'belief' a valid path to truth, or not?

 

 

some people don't believe in the evolution of life and we all have the same blood :)

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acute
31 minutes ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

One doesn't have to 'believe' in gravity to know it is an actuality.

Gravity isn't a "fact".

It's been disputed since Einstein.

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zep73
2 minutes ago, acute said:

Gravity isn't a "fact".

It's been disputed since Einstein.

That's a truth with modifications. It's the source of gravity that is a mystery. They are unable to find it in matter. Some think it's hiding in higher dimensions inside particles, thus the 11 dimensions of string theory. Some believe it is a property of spacetime. When they figure it out, we will have reached a milestone in science.

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acute
6 minutes ago, zep73 said:

thus the 11 dimensions of string theory.

String Theory has eleven dimensions? :blink:

I suspect it's way more than that!

(I'm thinking exponentially)

 

Edited by acute
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Hammerclaw

"and what is truth? Is truth unchanging law? We all have truths--are mine the same as yours? Pilate, JC Superstar.

"Truth" such as it is, is in the eye of the beholder and human beings have the pernicious habit of convincing themselves of the most bizarre, outlandish, irrational and absolutely unscientific things. 

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Eon

Belief is a very weak word to me, I tend to go with reasoning, facts and critical thinking. Always on a down to earth approach and aware of my limits. Belief doesn't add anything to the table for me, It may be that I'm also not religious but I think belief is not necessarily religious, example: "I believe I can pass the exam".

Although I can see how belief is a warm blanket covering people while facing obstacles, unleashing motivation and strength to face life, and as long as it's not blind belief I think It's healthy.

Edited by Eon
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Jodie.Lynne
32 minutes ago, acute said:

Gravity isn't a "fact".

It's been disputed since Einstein.

Please see this: "One doesn't have to 'believe' in gravity to know it is an actuality.  If anyone thinks otherwise, please take an elevator to the roof of the tallest building nearby, step off the edge, and report back to us."

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zep73

Just a note:

Belief is anything we put our trust into. Including science.
Science, however, has earned the trust we put into it, with an abundance of evidence.
But still, the conclusions, based on interpretations, is totally a matter of belief.

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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

I think we can all agree that 'beliefs' and 'facts' are two entirely different species of animal.

One is based on one's personal desires and wishful thinking; and the other is based in reality.

One doesn't have to 'believe' in gravity to know it is an actuality.  If anyone thinks otherwise, please take an elevator to the roof of the tallest building nearby, step off the edge, and report back to us.

One doesn't 'believe' in the theory of evolution, one either accepts the premise as valid, or one does not. And if one rejects the premise, then THEY have the burden of showing an alternative theory that works WITHOUT relying on magic or imaginary actors.

A belief may be comforting, but in and of itself, a belief cannot prove itself to be true merely by relying on a circular argument ( i.e. "I know the bible is true, because the bible tells me so" ).  OR by assertion ( i.e. "The sky is blue, because it is!" ), or because that was what was taught to you; or the admonition that "everyone knows...."

Some folk believe the Earth to be flat, or hollow, or both, and reject the science that proves them wrong, because "belief..."   Or that the level of melatonin in one's dermis can indicate who is the 'superior' human. Or that what genitalia rests between one's loins, determines who the 'better' gender is.

 

So, the ultimate question is.... Is 'belief' a valid path to truth, or not?

 

 

Good points

You are very right about the difference between knowledge and belief 

However I do disagree with you  about evolution 

I believe in evolution based on the evidences, context, my education and up bringing 

My wife is a creationist 

 I can argue about our beliefs but the facts are still open to belief.

Eg she would simply say that the evidences for evolution are the  product of creation.  She is right in a way, (ie I cant prove her to be wrong)  and so I don't claim knowledge that evolution explains our existence ,  because  i dont think knowledge is possible on this issue.

I just disagree with her interpretation  of the evidences, and have a different belief  

This is different to beliefs which can be easily proven to be false, such as in a flat earth. 

Creationism cant be proven to be false unless you accept that  the evidences for evolution are NOT the product of creation  

Belief is not about providing truths.  (although a belief can be true or false) It is about providing  hope, power, strength, happiness. 

Facts provide truths, but may not help you with; hope, courage,  empowerment or happiness.   

Edited by Mr Walker
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and then
1 hour ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

So, the ultimate question is.... Is 'belief' a valid path to truth, or not?

Actually, I think the ultimate question should be "why is it so important to have the beliefs of others disproven?"  Seriously... what is the purpose of such an exercise?  Human beings have had "unproven" beliefs since we first walked upright.  It just seems like an obsession to demand that everyone acknowledge a single standard whether they want to or not.  I have no need whatever to demand that millions of other people believe as I believe.  It wouldn't even occur to me to demand such a thing.  

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Guyver
1 hour ago, docyabut2 said:

some people don't believe in the evolution of life and we all have the same blood :)

No.  We don’t.

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Guyver
2 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

So, the ultimate question is.... Is 'belief' a valid path to truth, or not?

 

 

I’m so glad you made this thread Jodie.Lynne.  I wanted to make a thread myself, but I’m happy to participate in yours.  You ask a great question, a challenging and good one.  Unfortunately, I would have to play the poo-poo card on this one because it’s too deep to do without defining terms.  But, since I don’t want to start out negative I will say that people can believe and believe that they are in the truth, and they may not be.  But the problem is in defining who’s truth and what truth?  
 

A person can believe hard enough they think they have the truth when the fact is that one can hardly even define truth, let alone know it.  Yet, one does what one can.  So, peace be with you.

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psyche101
2 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

 

A belief may be comforting, but in and of itself, a belief cannot prove itself to be true merely by relying on a circular argument ( i.e. "I know the bible is true, because the bible tells me so" ).  OR by assertion ( i.e. "The sky is blue, because it is!" ), or because that was what was taught to you; or the admonition that "everyone knows...."

Some folk believe the Earth to be flat, or hollow, or both, and reject the science that proves them wrong, because "belief..."   Or that the level of melatonin in one's dermis can indicate who is the 'superior' human. Or that what genitalia rests between one's loins, determines who the 'better' gender is.

 

So, the ultimate question is.... Is 'belief' a valid path to truth, or not?

 

 

I think you answered your own question there. 

Belief should be a benchmark at best. Never should belief become laurel's

 That's more often than not the case though. 

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quiXilver

Beliefs are just thoughts.

While not all thoughts become beliefs. 

Somewhere in thinking a shift occurs that transforms a thought, into a belief.  I suspect emotion plays a significant part.

 

I still vividly recall the moment, some decades ago now, when my mind suddenly had this thought, seemingly out of nowhere and it's proven to be invaluable ever since.

 

"Just because you thought something and felt strongly about it... doesn't make it real, true, or even important.  They're just thoughts.  Don't believe what you think."

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Will Do
47 minutes ago, quiXilver said:

"Just because you thought something and felt strongly about it... doesn't make it real, true, or even important.  They're just thoughts.  

 

Of which also, you may need to...

 

47 minutes ago, quiXilver said:

Don't believe what you think."

 

That they're just thoughts.

 

 

Edited by Will Do

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XenoFish

Belief can lead to truth? Yes, if you're curious about what you believe it can lead to all kinds of truths. It can also lead to denial and reinforcement of said belief. 

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XenoFish
7 hours ago, and then said:

Actually, I think the ultimate question should be "why is it so important to have the beliefs of others disproven?"  Seriously... what is the purpose of such an exercise?  Human beings have had "unproven" beliefs since we first walked upright.  It just seems like an obsession to demand that everyone acknowledge a single standard whether they want to or not.  I have no need whatever to demand that millions of other people believe as I believe.  It wouldn't even occur to me to demand such a thing.  

I think it comes down to fear or self-doubt. Where they can't discuss a particular belief, but instead attack it. Wanting their own reality tunnel to be the dominate one. That's the problem with dominate beliefs, they're almost always never good. You get a pack mentality of collective idiots who think the same, say the same, do the same, and it all goes to hell. Damn you if you're one who has a different opinion. 

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the13bats
9 hours ago, Jodie.Lynne said:

So, the ultimate question is.... Is 'belief' a valid path to truth, or not?

Could be, could be not depends now doesnt it?

Im believing that if one did persue their belief not just blindy believes it then they very well might find truth but not always and the truth might not support their belief.

A child believes in santa but sets out to prove to santa is real, that quest is likely going to end with a truth.

For some people belief is enough, they dont need to or care about proving their belief to themselves or others they are comfortable in that their belief is truth in and of itself to them,

I imagine that is far more blissful.

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Liquid Gardens
10 hours ago, and then said:

Actually, I think the ultimate question should be "why is it so important to have the beliefs of others disproven?"  Seriously... what is the purpose of such an exercise?

To find out what's true?  Because some beliefs are harmful?  Considering how open you are not to the beliefs of others on the political boards here, perhaps you should ask yourself this question. 

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DebDandelion
11 hours ago, and then said:

Actually, I think the ultimate question should be "why is it so important to have the beliefs of others disproven?"  Seriously... what is the purpose of such an exercise?  Human beings have had "unproven" beliefs since we first walked upright.  It just seems like an obsession to demand that everyone acknowledge a single standard whether they want to or not.  I have no need whatever to demand that millions of other people believe as I believe.  It wouldn't even occur to me to demand such a thing.  

To a point I agree with you. It's almost like a meme I saw where someone asks: how do I learn to love them like I love myself. The person answered by saying--start by realizing there is no 'them'. 

So what you are saying makes sense to me. If you think about it why must we weigh beliefs. Let people be. As long as their belief don't harm anyone(I am adding). 

Where do I not agree with you? It's not like an obsession (like you mentioned). It is (for me) to conform to guidelines that people put down as 'normal'. 

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DebDandelion
10 hours ago, quiXilver said:

Beliefs are just thoughts.

*disagree to a point. Belief is stronger than a mere thought. It becomes a norm by which things are measured*

While not all thoughts become beliefs. 

Somewhere in thinking a shift occurs that transforms a thought, into a belief.  I suspect emotion plays a significant part.

*disagree somewhat. For me, if I have to use thoughts that become belief statement, adding emotion into a thought would not make it a belief. For me, that emotion added to a thought I would call a trigger. It triggers a certain response because you activated the emotion with the thought. I hop I make sense. For me, belief comes from thought backed with (possible) indoctrination, and/or from fear of being rejected if not compliant(which might link to your emotion and thought argument) *

 

I still vividly recall the moment, some decades ago now, when my mind suddenly had this thought, seemingly out of nowhere and it's proven to be invaluable ever since.

 

"Just because you thought something and felt strongly about it... doesn't make it real, true, or even important.  They're just thoughts.  Don't believe what you think."

 

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Will Do
1 hour ago, Liquid Gardens said:

To find out what's true?  Because some beliefs are harmful?  Considering how open you are not to the beliefs of others on the political boards here, perhaps you should ask yourself this question. 

 

Likewise, how does disproving what someone tells you they believe help you to find out what's true, when the work of discovering what's true is no one's business but your own?

 

 

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