Beliefs... everyone has them

[XenoFish]

2 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

I'm not sure where what we're calling 'ordinary beliefs' fit in

For example the belief that you can lose weight or get out of debt. I figure something along those lines would be an ordinary belief. 

I guess it would depend on how hopefulness is express, that could be the belief that things may work out in one's favor. Still a coin toss though. 

Something else to think about as an ordinary belief would be what we believe about ourselves, others, life in general. If we believe we're the greatest thing on planet earth, then an ego check is in order. 

[jmccr8]

52 minutes ago, Will Do said:

 

Here's perhaps the most valid path to truth.

When you're not paying attention, it's when you bump your head running into it.

 

 

Hi Will

Like this?

or this

or this

or more like this?

jmccr8

[eight bits]

3 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

... the beliefs she is referring to are based on wishful thinking and personal desires.  I'm not sure where what we're calling 'ordinary beliefs' fit in, all the JFK beliefs Jodie mentioned look like ordinary beliefs and not necessarily the product of wishful thinking necessarily;

Yes, her two lists seemed to me to contrast well-evidenced "lead pipe cinch" propositions (although I believe she was mistaken about the time of day when Ruby shot Oswald) with much less well supported, but not especially implausible, hypotheses.

I didn't see any special role for wishful thinking or personal desires in the items on the second list. Maybe if somebody expressed the same confidence that "the mob killed Kennedy" as for "Kennedy was shot on 22 November 1963" ?

Anyway, all I meant by ordinary beliefs are those expressions of confidence which are readily understood based on inherent plausibility and available evidence, in contrast with other expressions of confidence which are difficult to understand based on inherent plausibility and available evidence. So - maybe personal desires, wishful thinking or something "deeper" would be worthwhile hypotheses to explore in trying to undersatnd those "beliefs."

 

[Will Due]

1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Will

Like this?

or this

or this

or more like this?

jmccr8

 

Exactly  

 

 

[Will Due]

 

Here's another valid path to truth.

The trajectory an 8x16x8 inch Cement Masonry Unit takes when it falls on your big toe. 

 

 

[+Liquid Gardens]

1 hour ago, eight bits said:

I didn't see any special role for wishful thinking or personal desires in the items on the second list. Maybe if somebody expressed the same confidence that "the mob killed Kennedy" as for "Kennedy was shot on 22 November 1963" ?

Neither do I, I think all the things labelled as beliefs on the JFK list are ordinary beliefs.  However the OP itself lists non-ordinary beliefs, like the earth is flat or hollow or the bible tells me so.  I agree with your definition for ordinary beliefs, those seem to be on the same spectrum with 'fact' in a way that this other/OP category of beliefs, 'wishful thinking beliefs', aren't.

[psyche101]

18 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Some of us find denial of the spiritual side of humanity to be dishonest.

Some find the denial tha t science is constantly evolving and progressing to be dishonest 

Some find it to be dishonest to claim, "Well,  because i don't feel or experience that, then  it isn't real or true" 

No matter what some people think, it's particularly dishonest to insist eBay definitions override dictionary definitions.

You bought a dictionary yet?

[Sakari]

On 11/30/2020 at 6:16 PM, Jodie.Lynne said:

So, the ultimate question is.... Is 'belief' a valid path to truth, or not?

 

 

Funny. About 4 years ago, I would have been commenting that life is a light switch. I would also say when we die, we die.

Now I know anyone that says things like that are just trying to pump their chest out, and try to sound all brave.

So, to answer your question. I have more respect for people that have a "belief" in a after life, no matter what religion, or Spirituality. I can not imagine the peace it would bring, when faced with death, to "know" that you are going to go to a better place. Or, even just another place. I would give about anything to have that feeling.

Anyone that makes fun of, or even tries to debate people over a belief like I am talking about is a idiot. I used to be that idiot.

When you are given a terminal disease diagnosis, and suddenly realize we are not immortal, life is short, and you wasted most of it. On the internet, arguing about things like this, it hits hard. And, I guarantee you, the thing that hits the hardest, and I call bull**** to anyone saying otherwise, is the wake up call of, "Is this it?". Than comes in the "Oh sh$t. I do not believe in anything". I can not even begin to explain the mind f$%k it gives you.

So, yes, it absolutely is a valid path to truth. At least in this meaning of it. A truth I wish I had.

Although, not ashamed of the path I had been on, and did not realize, and am now doing my best to lean on.

 

[Sakari]

15 minutes ago, Sakari said:

Funny. About 4 years ago, I would have been commenting that life is a light switch. I would also say when we die, we die.

Now I know anyone that says things like that are just trying to pump their chest out, and try to sound all brave.

So, to answer your question. I have more respect for people that have a "belief" in a after life, no matter what religion, or Spirituality. I can not imagine the peace it would bring, when faced with death, to "know" that you are going to go to a better place. Or, even just another place. I would give about anything to have that feeling.

Anyone that makes fun of, or even tries to debate people over a belief like I am talking about is a idiot. I used to be that idiot.

When you are given a terminal disease diagnosis, and suddenly realize we are not immortal, life is short, and you wasted most of it. On the internet, arguing about things like this, it hits hard. And, I guarantee you, the thing that hits the hardest, and I call bull**** to anyone saying otherwise, is the wake up call of, "Is this it?". Than comes in the "Oh sh$t. I do not believe in anything". I can not even begin to explain the mind f$%k it gives you.

So, yes, it absolutely is a valid path to truth. At least in this meaning of it. A truth I wish I had.

Although, not ashamed of the path I had been on, and did not realize, and am now doing my best to lean on.

 

@onlookerofmayhem

Why the laughing emoji to the above post I made? Just curious.

[+Liquid Gardens]

21 minutes ago, Sakari said:

am now doing my best to lean on.

That's great, I wish you the best.  But I'd keep in mind that not everyone reacts to the wake up call of, 'is this it?', as you apparently did.  We're not you, lots of people are not distressed by the 'I do not believe in anything' part. 

[Sakari]

3 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

That's great, I wish you the best.  But I'd keep in mind that not everyone reacts to the wake up call of, 'is this it?', as you apparently did.  We're not you, lots of people are not distressed by the 'I do not believe in anything' part. 

As said. I used to say that. Everyone I have talked to in my melanoma support groups say the same thing. People talk a lot of brave talk, until the reality of death is put on them. An expiration date lets say.
Not sure if I am reading your last sentence correct.
People that truly have a belief do not get this reaction, because they are not afraid to die. They "know" they have somewhere to go.

 

[Will Due]

 

There's a big difference between not being stressed, and being at peace.

Maybe that's the difference between having faith in something rather than having something to believe.

 

 

[onlookerofmayhem]

10 minutes ago, Sakari said:

@onlookerofmayhem

Why the laughing emoji to the above post I made? Just curious.

Because I find the following statements laughable :

27 minutes ago, Sakari said:

Now I know anyone that says things like that are just trying to pump their chest out, and try to sound all brave.

 

28 minutes ago, Sakari said:

Anyone that makes fun of, or even tries to debate people over a belief like I am talking about is a idiot.

 

29 minutes ago, Sakari said:

And, I guarantee you, the thing that hits the hardest, and I call bull**** to anyone saying otherwise, is the wake up call of, "Is this it?".

 

29 minutes ago, Sakari said:

So, yes, it absolutely is a valid path to truth.

Preemptively, I wish everyone in the world could be happy and healthy 100% of the time, but I know that is absolutely impossible. There are many ways to deal will physical and emotional health. If somebody finds something that works for them, without harming others, I'm glad.

Your assertions may be applicable to yourself and many others, but they are by no means universal.

I find it especially funny that you think anyone who debates such things, as you refer to, is "a idiot."

This is a section of a forum dedicated to debate-style discussions. 

If people don't want their beliefs challenged or don't want to engage in discussions about their beliefs, they shouldn't bother posting here.

All of this said in my opinion, obviously. 

[psyche101]

9 minutes ago, Sakari said:

As said. I used to say that. Everyone I have talked to in my melanoma support groups say the same thing. People talk a lot of brave talk, until the reality of death is put on them. An expiration date lets say.
Not sure if I am reading your last sentence correct.
People that truly have a belief do not get this reaction, because they are not afraid to die. They "know" they have somewhere to go.

Ive known people who have passed, but your the first 'atheist in a foxhole' Ive ever encountered in real life. 

If it works you, that's great.

[Sakari]

4 minutes ago, onlookerofmayhem said:

Because I find the following statements laughable :

 

 

 

Preemptively, I wish everyone in the world could be happy and healthy 100% of the time, but I know that is absolutely impossible. There are many ways to deal will physical and emotional health. If somebody finds something that works for them, without harming others, I'm glad.

Your assertions may be applicable to yourself and many others, but they are by no means universal.

I find it especially funny that you think anyone who debates such things, as you refer to, is "a idiot."

This is a section of a forum dedicated to debate-style discussions. 

If people don't want their beliefs challenged or don't want to engage in discussions about their beliefs, they shouldn't bother posting here.

All of this said in my opinion, obviously. 

Go back the last 10 years and look at my posts. Maybe than you will get it.

You are one of those people pumping your chest out. And not meaning it in a bad way. I used to do it.

I was diagnosed after a tumor was removed from my lower intestine about 2.5 years ago with stage 4 Melanoma. Basically,a 17% chance to live 5 more years. I am pretty damn certain you have not had anything close to that given to you. I also guarantee if you had, you would not have used a laughing emoji in the response.

Pretty classless.I never even did that.

Hope you never do have to go through anything like that.Go live your life, each day, like it could be your last. Do not make excuses to not try to live your dreams.

Peace out. Back to another 4 year hiatus. Regret even posting.

[Mr Walker]

1 hour ago, psyche101 said:

No matter what some people think, it's particularly dishonest to insist eBay definitions override dictionary definitions.

You bought a dictionary yet?

As with many things, you are wrong 

its how people USE words which defines them. (and this  has been accepted on UM for a long time) 

Dictionaries catch up with usage eventually but reflect traditional not current usage 

I turn your comments back on you.

You are wrong.  A pond CAN be dry   I gave  other sources than ebay, including CSIRO references to dry ponds. 

[Sakari]

10 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

Ive known people who have passed, but your the first 'atheist in a foxhole' Ive ever encountered in real life. 

If it works you, that's great.

No idea what that means. And I guess you missed my point?

[onlookerofmayhem]

1 minute ago, Sakari said:

Go back the last 10 years and look at my posts. Maybe than you will get it.

No thanks. I feel like that would be a massive waste of time. I don't really care about your personal transformation. 

2 minutes ago, Sakari said:

You are one of those people pumping your chest out. And not meaning it in a bad way. I used to do it.

I don't really care what you used to do. I'm not you and you don't know me.

3 minutes ago, Sakari said:

I was diagnosed after a tumor was removed from my lower intestine about 2.5 years ago with stage 4 Melanoma. Basically,a 17% chance to live 5 more years.

So what? Billions of people live and die with or without a terminal disease. If you are alive, you're going to die. It's a pretty simple concept.

Some people don't need the hope or belief in an afterlife to function.

6 minutes ago, Sakari said:

I am pretty damn certain you have not had anything close to that given to you. I also guarantee if you had, you would not have used a laughing emoji in the response.

You have no idea what I've experienced in my life to make that assumption.

I believe I quoted which parts of your post I found laughable. I stand by my reaction. 

9 minutes ago, Sakari said:

Pretty classless.I never even did that.

Good for you. I reacted the way I felt after reading your post. Sorry if you take offense to my feelings. 

10 minutes ago, Sakari said:

Hope you never do have to go through anything like that.Go live your life, each day, like it could be your last.

I've been doing that for twenty years...

10 minutes ago, Sakari said:

Do not make excuses to not try to live your dreams.

You might not say that if you knew what I dream about.

11 minutes ago, Sakari said:

Regret even posting.

If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.

[XenoFish]

14 minutes ago, Sakari said:

Peace out. Back to another 4 year hiatus. Regret even posting.

Good to see you around. Do your best to make the most out of those 4+ years.

[psyche101]

36 minutes ago, Sakari said:

No idea what that means. And I guess you missed my point?

I am referring to

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_are_no_atheists_in_foxholes#:~:text=The statement "There are no,there are therefore no atheists).

 

Which is what I thought was the point? 

Edited December 3, 2020 by psyche101

[psyche101]

20 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

As with many things, you are wrong 

its how people USE words which defines them. (and this  has been accepted on UM for a long time) 

Dictionaries catch up with usage eventually but reflect traditional not current usage 

I turn your comments back on you.

You are wrong.  A pond CAN be dry   I gave  other sources than ebay, including CSIRO references to dry ponds. 

You can't prove that with a dictionary. 

I take it that's a no, you haven't bought one yet. 

[+Liquid Gardens]

37 minutes ago, Sakari said:

As said. I used to say that.

That's fine.  It doesn't follow though that anyone who used to say that will later say the same things you are right now under the same conditions and come to the same realizations about their own life.  As psyche mentioned, you are kinda implying that atheists when confronted with death are going to regret something, like not having belief.  Some probably will, I think your view of believers themselves is a little too rosy and optimistic and likewise I think some of them also would have the same distress and mindscrew as you did.  It's just not going to apply to everyone though.  Someone I know died over the summer after a long illness, he was my age, and after years of issues as he put it he decided to, 'give up his fight to the death with death', and entered hospice and died a few days later.  He didn't regret not believing in God throughout, it had nothing to do with it, but it'd be just as incorrect and invalid to apply his feelings and approach and insights and realizations to you and everyone else in similar situations like you are doing.

I'm sorry you have cancer, I'm sure that sucks, I have family afflicted also so you definitely have my sympathies.  I hope that your beliefs provide you comfort.  If there is a risk that the comfort you get from those beliefs will be endangered by people questioning them though, then this is the one board I recommend you avoid on UM. 

[Will Due]

9 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

If there is a risk that the comfort you get from those beliefs will be endangered by people questioning them though, then this is the one board I recommend you avoid on UM. 

 

Yeah but you can't make steel without getting it real hot and hammering the hell out of it lol.

 

 

[Mr Walker]

36 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

You can't prove that with a dictionary. 

I take it that's a no, you haven't bought one yet. 

lol I own a  dozen of them.  I know most words in every one of them, and their etymology.

Ive never denied that a pond is a body of water.

My argument with you is that a pond structure  does not ALWAYS contain water.

That is simply true so you need to get over it .  

quote 

WET PONDS AND DRY PONDS

There are two general types of stormwater ponds: wet ponds and dry ponds.

How can a pond be dry? A dry pond is designed to hold water for a short period of time before allowing the water to discharge to a nearby stream. Dry ponds control peak flows of runoff, help improve water quality and lessen the effects of erosion. Between rain events, a dry pond looks like a large, grassy low area. When it rains, the pond fills with water. They hold water for 48-72 hours to allow sediment and pollutants to settle out. Because they detain water for a brief time before allowing it to flow out, dry ponds are also called detention ponds.

https://www.fairfaxcounty.gov/soil-water-conservation/understanding-stormwater-ponds#:~:text=A dry pond is designed,lessen the effects of erosion.&text=They hold water for 48,and pollutants to settle out.

quote

Common Techniques

There are two types of pond; defined as: Dry ponds: – A permanent pond that temporarily stores stormwater runoff to control the peak rate of discharges and provide water quality treatment, primarily through the incorporation of extended detention. These ponds are normally dry between storm events.

Wet ponds: – A permanent pond that has a standing pool of water. T

https://www.hobartcity.com.au/files/assets/public/roads-and-transport/stormwater/10.-stormwater-ponds.pdf

 

The word pond comes from  the same root as pound ie an enclosure to HOLD something.  

Edited December 3, 2020 by Mr Walker

[psyche101]

8 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

lol I own a  dozen of them.  I know most words in every one of them, and their etymology.

Ive never denied that a pond is a body of water.

My argument with you is that a pond structure  does not ALWAYS contain water.

That is simply true so you need to get over it .  

Why don't you get over yourself? If you have dictionaries, you obviously don't use them. 

Your dishonest. That's all I need to know about you. Go tell someone else how awesome you think you are.