What is Socialism?

[RavenHawk]

This is a simple thread.  Please express what you think Socialism is and I will shoot it down (as politely and maturely as possible).  Just a couple of rules.  I do not want links or long paragraphs.  Just express what you think Socialism is in your own words in a few sentences.  Now, I may ask you questions which I hope you will answer honestly.

 

[Gromdor]

You stated the thread- you should go first.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

“Come and let me tell you why you are wrong”, what an enticing premise for a thread.

[Grim Reaper 6]

8 hours ago, RavenHawk said:

This is a simple thread.  Please express what you think Socialism is and I will shoot it down (as politely and maturely as possible).  Just a couple of rules.  I do not want links or long paragraphs.  Just express what you think Socialism is in your own words in a few sentences.  Now, I may ask you questions which I hope you will answer honestly.

 

 

This my belief about what socialism is

 

1: Any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2a: A system of society or group living in which there is no private property

b: A system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

3: A stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

 

Now the question is what is President Trumps ideology, the answer, The President is A National Socialist, and he has proven that over and over again!!!!!!

https://www.veteranstoday.com/disclosures/

[Hankenhunter]

5 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

 

This my belief about what socialism is

 

1: Any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2a: A system of society or group living in which there is no private property

b: A system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

3: A stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

 

Now the question is what is President Trumps ideology, the answer, The President is A National Socialist, and he has proven that over and over again!!!!!!

https://www.veteranstoday.com/disclosures/

 

[Grim Reaper 6]

@Hankenhunter @RavenHawk  My link in post 4 is not the intended link for my comments in that post. The correct link is listed below, along with the article on President Trumps National Socialist / Fascist affiliation to those Political Beliefs!!!

The statement below clearly shows President Trumps personality and mental attributes that identify him as a National Socialist / Fascist.

In my preferred dictionary, Collins Third Edition, fascism [my numbering] is “any 1 rightwing 2 nationalist ideology or movement with 3 an authoritarian and 4 hierarchical structure that 5 is fundamentally opposed to democracy and 6 [opposed to] liberalism.” Add 7 racism and 8 brutality and you have Nazism, Hitler style. 

Those who worry that Donald Trump is a fascist are behind two curves. The First is that there are valid grounds for calling him a Nazi. Too far? No, not far enough. The second curve is the worry—now being expressed even in some mainstream media—that the USA and maybe Europe are going fascist. Again, this fear falls short. There are valid grounds for describing the direction of the USA and Europe as moving toward the worst manifestation of fascism: resurgent Nazism. Yes that far.

In the case of Trump, a “reign of terror” has brainwashed the public with fears that he exploits. Starting with 9/11, powers within the American Empire in collusion with elements of “America’s allies” have deployed agents to mount a series of false flag operations that fuel Trump’s base. A groundwork has been laid. https://www.veteranstoday.com/2020/09/27/is-trump-a-fascist-its-much-worse/

Is Trump a Fascist:?

As Mr. Trump's rhetoric has become more heated, commentators have been scrambling to the textbooks to note the characteristics of interwar fascism, seeking whether his histrionics match the scholars' portraits of Hitler, Mussolini, Franco and other famous exemplars. 

 A few days ago, he called for a renewal of waterboarding. And even if this torture technique does not work, as he said, terror suspects "deserve it anyway."

Violence and the strongman seem omnipresent. About a beaten black heckler at a recent Trump rally, the candidate responded to a question about the man being "roughed up" by the crowd. "Roughed up?" he wondered. "I don't know … maybe he should have been roughed up, because it was absolutely disgusting what he was doing. "The man that was – I don't know, you say 'roughed up' – he was so obnoxious and so loud. He was screaming. I had 10,000 people in the room yesterday – 10,000 people. And this guy started screaming by himself," Mr. Trump told the interviewer.

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/is-donald-trump-an-american-fascist/article27516771/

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Manwon Lender

[Robotic Jew]

The new definition of Socialism is simple: Anything that is not presented or supported by a republican.

[aztek]

15 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

“Come and let me tell you why you are wrong”, what an enticing premise for a thread.

someone has to, cuz form posts i read here over years, people ARE wrong,  i personally would not bother educating ignorant, i like them to stay that way, but he sees things different.

oh, and he isn't telling you are wrong,  he will prove it based on history, something  that supporters of  socialism  never do.

Edited December 2, 2020 by aztek

[Peter B]

51 minutes ago, aztek said:

someone has to, cuz form posts i read here over years, people ARE wrong,  i personally would not bother educating ignorant, i like them to stay that way, but he sees things different.

oh, and he isn't telling you are wrong,  he will prove it based on history, something  that supporters of  socialism  never do.

Uh, yes he is.

Read again what he said: " Please express what you think Socialism is and I will shoot it down..." Give an answer, and it will already be wrong.

[aztek]

9 minutes ago, Peter B said:

Uh, yes he is.

Read again what he said: " Please express what you think Socialism is and I will shoot it down..." Give an answer, and it will already be wrong.

go ahead try him.   he is one of the very few here, that explains his points meticulously and provides historical facts to prove it, i 've not seen that from a single liberally minded poster..   so go ahead, have him PROVE you  wrong, or you can try to PROVE him wrong.  cuz what i see so far is snowflakes throwing fits,  

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by aztek

[Raptor Witness]

Quote

“.....that these dead shall not have died in vain—that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom—and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.” Source

I think socialism was perhaps, best put forward by a Republican, who used the concept to abolish one of the most hurtful of all human pursuits, slavery.

The dividers among U.S. are always on the wrong side of history. “Socialism” is typically the nastiest word that the most recent batch of capitalists can use, to subvert any degree of state sponsored, sharing on earth.

Simply count the number of household guns in the United States, then divide that number by your average annual household income, and divide that by the number of avowed pacifists. This is your degree of socialism.  

Edited December 2, 2020 by Raptor Witness

[Tatetopa]

Socialism is a method of group organization that allows individuals  to participate in and benefit from endeavors that are too large for one individual to accomplish.

Socialism has been around since the times before humans became tool and fire users, in other words, as long as  modern humanity.  It utilizes human emotions of greed, fair play, and the ability to  comprehend delayed gratification.

Early examples of socialism include  hunters banding together to drive game or take on a creature too large for a single hunter.  The hunter that makes the kill gets first pick of largest and choicest cuts and the respect of fellow hunters, then all participants get a share in the kill 

In successful hunter gatherer societies, non-participants affiliated with the hunters may also share in the kill, such as women, children, the infirm, the aged, hunters injured in previous hunts. In failing groups faced with diminishing resources, it is every hunter for himself

Another example would be farmers cooperating to dig irrigation system ditches to their fields.  All individuals increase harvests in their personal fields due to community effort.  They still have to tend their field.

 

[moonman]

Most people that sling the term "socialism" around typically don't understand what it even means.

[aztek]

2 hours ago, moonman said:

Most people that sling the term "socialism" around typically don't understand what it even means.

what do you think it means?

[Gromdor]

21 minutes ago, aztek said:

what do you think it means?

It means police, firemen, public libraries, and public transportation.

[RavenHawk]

21 hours ago, Gromdor said:

You stated the thread- you should go first.

Non-sequitur as my responses will show what my beliefs are.  But your request doesn’t go unheeded.  Perhaps a frame of reference will help?  I’ve stated this many times but we should reexamine the political spectrum.  It can get very confusing.  The spectrum I support removes the confusion.  I will keep this as short as possible.

 

We are all use to the idea that Marxist, Communists, Despots, Totalitarianism, etc. are to the Left and Fascism, Nazism, Monarchy, Authoritarianism, etc. are to the Right.  But what does that really mean?  We could go into a whole other thread to just discuss the academic differences between all the forms of government.  But that doesn’t get us anywhere, the differences are trivial.  It’s not what the differences are but the one thing that makes them all the same which is more important.  And that is, is that *ALL* government, including Democracies and even ours (but ours has a caveat which I will get to shortly), are based on a certain level of control over the people.  What is the appropriate level of control should a government have over the people?

 

It is a matter of degree as to how much control any particular government places on its people.  This is why the current spectrum is obsolete.  A better representation would be to take the current spectrum, find its center and fold it at that center, one side over to the other.  So that the extreme Left and extreme Right are now side-by-side (where they truly belong).  Out of convention, let’s put these two to the Left and label the Left end as “100% government control” and the Right end as “0% government control” (Anarchy).  Are you with me so far?  I think this is much more accurate than the old system.

 

Every single government starts on this line somewhere and there are only three rules on this line.  Rule 1 states that governments can travel to the Left (100%) or Right (0%) at some specific rate dependent on the scenario.  Rule 2 states that the tendency of any government is to slide to the Left (over sliding to the Right) on the line.  Rule 3 states that no government can reach the 0% end as that is an asymptote.  Doing so is transforming and causes the new government to slingshot back on the line somewhere.

 

And now for the caveat.  Our government is the only one on the planet that places proper restrictions on itself to provide protections of individual rights.  Most Democracies provide only protections for its citizenry’s wellbeing (not the individual per se).  There is a difference between a collective of individuals and a collective of interchangeable cogs. 

 

One of my favorite quotes is from Madison, he says: “In Europe, charters of liberty have been granted by power. America has set the example … of charters of power granted by liberty. This revolution in the practice of the world, may, with an honest praise, be pronounced the most triumphant epoch of its history, and the most consoling presage of its happiness.”  This quote shows how unique and how revolutionary we are.  It best expresses the difference very eloquently.  In Europe, indeed the entire world, rights are granted by the government and that government will protect those rights just until it takes those rights away.  The more government moves to the Left, the more rights it takes away and that movement is constant, it never sleeps.

 

In the converse, here in this country, it is Liberty that grants rights, not the government.  The government is charged with protecting that at all costs.  The authority for our rights comes from a higher power.  John Adams adds: “Liberty must at all hazards be supported. We have a right to it, derived from our Maker. But if we had not, our fathers have earned and bought it for us, at the expense of their ease, their estates, their pleasure, and their blood.”  Our Liberties and Freedoms are not part of the government and yet, many on the Left wish that to not be the case.  It is our Constitution that gives us the ability to withstand the temptation of sliding Left and prevents us from spiraling into the Right.  When applied, this Constitution has the capability to put on the breaks.  And that is what makes our government singularly unique in the world.

 

ETA:  Right before publishing this, I got word of the passing of Walter E Williams.  He was one of this nation’s best economist, speaker, author.  A quote of his echoes this thought: “The freedom of individuals from compulsion or coercion never was, and is not now, the normal state of human affairs. The normal state for the ordinary person is tyranny, arbitrary control and abuse mainly by their own government.”  Sounds like a dreary existence if there is no ambition to be better.  But that is the hope and light that our Constitution brings to the world.

 

Thomas Jefferson showed us a way to act on this ambition, hope, and light: “That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”  It is the people that have the ultimate power to put on the breaks.

 

[Gromdor]

1 minute ago, RavenHawk said:

Non-sequitur as my responses will show what my beliefs are.  But your request doesn’t go unheeded.  Perhaps a frame of reference will help?  I’ve stated this many times but we should reexamine the political spectrum.  It can get very confusing.  The spectrum I support removes the confusion.  I will keep this as short as possible.

 

 

 

We are all use to the idea that Marxist, Communists, Despots, Totalitarianism, etc. are to the Left and Fascism, Nazism, Monarchy, Authoritarianism, etc. are to the Right.  But what does that really mean?  We could go into a whole other thread to just discuss the academic differences between all the forms of government.  But that doesn’t get us anywhere, the differences are trivial.  It’s not what the differences are but the one thing that makes them all the same which is more important.  And that is, is that *ALL* government, including Democracies and even ours (but ours has a caveat which I will get to shortly), are based on a certain level of control over the people.  What is the appropriate level of control should a government have over the people?

 

 

 

It is a matter of degree as to how much control any particular government places on its people.  This is why the current spectrum is obsolete.  A better representation would be to take the current spectrum, find its center and fold it at that center, one side over to the other.  So that the extreme Left and extreme Right are now side-by-side (where they truly belong).  Out of convention, let’s put these two to the Left and label the Left end as “100% government control” and the Right end as “0% government control” (Anarchy).  Are you with me so far?  I think this is much more accurate than the old system.

 

 

 

Every single government starts on this line somewhere and there are only three rules on this line.  Rule 1 states that governments can travel to the Left (100%) or Right (0%) at some specific rate dependent on the scenario.  Rule 2 states that the tendency of any government is to slide to the Left (over sliding to the Right) on the line.  Rule 3 states that no government can reach the 0% end as that is an asymptote.  Doing so is transforming and causes the new government to slingshot back on the line somewhere.

 

 

 

And now for the caveat.  Our government is the only one on the planet that places proper restrictions on itself to provide protections of individual rights.  Most Democracies provide only protections for its citizenry’s wellbeing (not the individual per se).  There is a difference between a collective of individuals and a collective of interchangeable cogs. 

 

 

 

One of my favorite quotes is from Madison, he says: “In Europe, charters of liberty have been granted by power. America has set the example … of charters of power granted by liberty. This revolution in the practice of the world, may, with an honest praise, be pronounced the most triumphant epoch of its history, and the most consoling presage of its happiness.”  This quote shows how unique and how revolutionary we are.  It best expresses the difference very eloquently.  In Europe, indeed the entire world, rights are granted by the government and that government will protect those rights just until it takes those rights away.  The more government moves to the Left, the more rights it takes away and that movement is constant, it never sleeps.

 

 

 

In the converse, here in this country, it is Liberty that grants rights, not the government.  The government is charged with protecting that at all costs.  The authority for our rights comes from a higher power.  John Adams adds: “Liberty must at all hazards be supported. We have a right to it, derived from our Maker. But if we had not, our fathers have earned and bought it for us, at the expense of their ease, their estates, their pleasure, and their blood.”  Our Liberties and Freedoms are not part of the government and yet, many on the Left wish that to not be the case.  It is our Constitution that gives us the ability to withstand the temptation of sliding Left and prevents us from spiraling into the Right.  When applied, this Constitution has the capability to put on the breaks.  And that is what makes our government singularly unique in the world.

 

 

 

ETA:  Right before publishing this, I got word of the passing of Walter E Williams.  He was one of this nation’s best economist, speaker, author.  A quote of his echoes this thought: “The freedom of individuals from compulsion or coercion never was, and is not now, the normal state of human affairs. The normal state for the ordinary person is tyranny, arbitrary control and abuse mainly by their own government.”  Sounds like a dreary existence if there is no ambition to be better.  But that is the hope and light that our Constitution brings to the world.

 

 

 

Thomas Jefferson showed us a way to act on this ambition, hope, and light: “That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”  It is the people that have the ultimate power to put on the breaks.

 

 

 

Actually two lines: one is the level of authoritorism/freedom while the second is liberalism/conservatism.  There are tests that show where you stand politically that shows this: Political spectrum - Wikipedia

Which has nothing to do with socialism btw...

[RavenHawk]

28 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

It means police, firemen, public libraries, and public transportation.

That is not Socialism.  These things are government functions, “The General Welfare”.  I will get into it more later, but Socialism is control and coercion of the people.  And it only gets worse.  A Socialist nation has never gotten better or made the people’s lives better without some kind of dynastic failure.  And then it just starts over.

[Gromdor]

5 minutes ago, RavenHawk said:

That is not Socialism.  These things are government functions, “The General Welfare”.  I will get into it more later, but Socialism is control and coercion of the people.  And it only gets worse.  A Socialist nation has never gotten better or made the people’s lives better without some kind of dynastic failure.  And then it just starts over.

 

Nope. Socialism is an economic policy.  You are confusing Liberty/Authoritorianism with socialism.  "The General Welfare" is closer to socialism than whatever it is you envision.

[ethereal_scout]

"For the many not the few" - is a possible attribute.

[docyabut2]

Trump blasts socialism as 'destroyer of societies' in UN address

Today I repeat a message to the world that I have delivered at home: America will never be a socialist country

Sen. Kelly Loeffler, R-Ga., says a Republican-controlled Senate would be a ‘firewall against socialism.’

socialism (noun)

1. a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

   synonyms:

   leftism · Fabianism · syndicalism · consumer socialism · utopian socialism · welfarism · communism · Bolshevism · radicalism · militancy · progressivism ·

   [more]

   New content will be added above the current area of focus upon selection

   social democracy · laborism · Marxism · Leninism · Marxism–Leninism · neo-Marxism · Trotskyism · Maoism

   antonyms:

   conservatism

   • policy or practice based on the political and economic theory of socialism.
     synonyms:

     leftism · Fabianism · syndicalism · consumer socialism · utopian socialism · welfarism · communism · Bolshevism · radicalism · militancy · progressivism ·

     [more]

     New content will be added above the current area of focus upon selection

     social democracy · laborism · Marxism · Leninism · Marxism–Leninism · neo-Marxism · Trotskyism · Maoism
     antonyms:

     conservatism
   • (in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism.

my country doesn't  want socialism ")

 

[RavenHawk]

9 minutes ago, Gromdor said:

Actually two lines: one is the level of authoritorism/freedom while the second is liberalism/conservatism.

So you don’t understand (or know) either of the political spectrums I speak of?  I am referring to only one line.

 

There are tests that show where you stand politically that shows this: Political spectrum - Wikipedia

Yes, I’ve seen that many times, especially when it gets posted here and every time I take it and I usually end up the most centrist among those that take it and share.

 

Which has nothing to do with socialism btw...

And you are very correct, this test has nothing to do with socialism.  Just tendencies.

 

[docyabut2]

I remember when the Communism socialism  party started in Russia, it takes away from the rights of the rich and the poor to only form into one government

 

Marxism

[ˈmärkˌsizəm]

 

NOUN

Marxism (noun)

1. the political and economic theories of Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels, later developed by their followers to form the basis for the theory and practice of communism.

Edited December 2, 2020 by docyabut2

[docyabut2]

19 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

 

This my belief about what socialism is

 

1: Any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods

2a: A system of society or group living in which there is no private property

b: A system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state

3: A stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

 

Now the question is what is President Trumps ideology, the answer, The President is A National Socialist, and he has proven that over and over again!!!!!!

https://www.veteranstoday.com/disclosures/

 President  trump is A National Socialist ?) he is not

Edited December 2, 2020 by docyabut2

[ethereal_scout]

https://www.politicalcompass.org/

 

The above is a good one to assess your orientation so to speak.