What is Socialism?

[SHaYap]

There's no such thing as genuine anything when it comes to politics... 

~

[aztek]

47 minutes ago, Horta said:

^^^ ps. It's also worth noting that this Capitalist Utopia (the US) gained it's wealth originally via the systematic genocide and displacement of the original inhabitants, along with the brutal slavery of black people that didn't really end until the 1920's. Since then it has maintained dominance by financing the winning side through two world wars, where it finished with half the world's GDP and a huge production base. Since then it owes as much or more to it's military for economic dominance, as to any economic ideology itself.

none of that in any way contradicts what i said.  nor really matters as far as capitalism  being far superior to any other social system, that is why a million a year come to usa.   

[Horta]

Which part of the above is the most humorous to you aztek? The well documented genocide, or the slavery?

[aztek]

2 minutes ago, Horta said:

Which part of the above is the most humorous to you aztek? The well documented genocide, or the slavery?

your futile and childish attempts at justifying , and even glorifying a system that failed in every country it was tried,

[Horta]

1 minute ago, aztek said:

none of that in any way contradicts what i said.    

It certainly puts it into the correct perspective though.

(also-do you really believe the Nazis were socialists lol?)

Quote

nor really matters as far as capitalism  being far superior to any other social system, that is why a million a year come to usa.

Partly true (of the available systems). Lots of countries are capitalist though, many with far healthier, happier and more functional societies than the US. So perhaps that's not all there is to it.

[Horta]

2 minutes ago, aztek said:

your futile and childish attempts at justifying , and even glorifying a system that failed in every country it was tried,

China says hello. Not that I endorse totalitarianism, but the facts seem to indicate that at least economically, it isn't a failure. More of a miracle.

More relevant to the brand of socialism I would endorse...Norway? Sweden? Not seeing failure there.

Though none of this is relevant the post you laughed at. Genocide, slavery or world wars were mentioned and what you found funny. Which one in particular? All three?

[aztek]

yes, china turned from poor agricultural country into huge industrial base of the world, and it all happened in some 30 years, as soon as communist gvmnt of china opened door to capitalists and became them themselves,   only proves my point, capitalism promotes prosperity,  

i do not see many people trying immigrate to those countries, they are  not truly socialism either they have some capitalism as well, private means of production.

none of them, YOU are hilarious, if there was an angry smile i'd press it, for your pathetic attempt to use slavery wars genocide to somewhat boost your failing arguments, now since you brought those up, may i remind you of genocide, slavery, and wars  terror, revolutions on socialist side, , just count how many stalin and mao alone killed, your attempt at even going there is pathetic, cowardly, and insulting. 

[Horta]

4 minutes ago, aztek said:

yes, china turned from poor agricultural country into huge industrial base of the world, and it all happened in some 30 years, as soon as communist gvmnt of china opened door to capitalists and became them themselves,   only proves my point, capitalism promotes prosperity,  

i do not see many people trying immigrate to those countries, they are  not truly socialism either they have some capitalism as well, private means of production.

 

There's a hell of a lot returning back to China in recent times.

I'm getting the feeling here that not only do you not understand modern socialism, you seem a little iffy on what defines Capitalism. Perhaps a thread on that might be useful.

Quote

none of them, YOU are hilarious, if there was an angry smile i'd press it, for your pathetic attempt to use slavery wars genocide to somewhat boost your failing arguments, now since you brought those up, may i remind you of genocide, slavery, and wars  terror, revolutions on socialist side, , just count how many stalin and mao alone killed, your attempt at even going there is pathetic, cowardly, and insulting. 

Getting a little emotional are we?

I don't deny such things, and I certainly don't find them humorous. Nor do I promote or defend them. What i have put forward are facts though. You probably don't see this in your efforts to define socialism in the manner convenient for you, but you are suffering cognitive bias and a black or white fallacy. Bernie Sanders is unlikely to lead to genocide. He is also a socialist (a democratic socialist). As was the great humanitarian and scientist Albert Einstein also a socialist. As are many many other western intellectuals, activists and humanitarians.

Though I would like it if you could set the record straight here. Were the Nazis really socialists, in your opinion, as you seemed to claim earlier?

[aztek]

3 minutes ago, Horta said:

 

Getting a little emotional are we?

 

naw , i'm just turning around your attempt at  scoring points by virtue signaling, 

[aztek]

9 minutes ago, Horta said:

There's a hell of a lot returning back to China in recent times.

I'm getting the feeling here that not only do you not understand modern socialism, you seem a little iffy on what defines Capitalism. Perhaps a thread on that might be useful.

 

of course they do, capitalistic side created opportunities that were not there before, 

that is probably because you are confused  in thinking modern socialism is any different than past, time does not matter,  people are always people, a thread would be great, maybe you'd learn something, oh wait, it IS the thread,  funny how you did not notice it. lol

[Horta]

This thread is on socialism, is it not? Of which you claimed a high level of expertise. 

Yet you also claimed in post no.86 that Einstein fled from a "socialist heaven" (Nazi Germany). Do you genuinely believe that the Nazis were socialists? 

 

[Grim Reaper 6]

23 minutes ago, Horta said:

This thread is on socialism, is it not? Of which you claimed a high level of expertise. 

Yet you also claimed in post no.86 that Einstein fled from a "socialist heaven" (Nazi Germany). Do you genuinely believe that the Nazis were socialists? 

 

Well I think you have her there, I suspect she confused the name National Socialist German Workers Party for socialism. I think she need to go back and figure out what the work Socialist's actually means.

The most comical thing in this entire thread are her comments, that I Quote ( This is a simple thread.  Please express what you think Socialism is and I will shoot it down (as politely and maturely as possible)

I have been laughing all morning just thinking about it.

[Grim Reaper 6]

On 12/4/2020 at 11:48 AM, OverSword said:

Good post but this part I don’t agree with. It’s not intellectuals the right has an issue with its communism. It’s the left which jails and exterminates the intellectuals when they take over not capitalists.

That really makes no sense what so ever, the intellectuals are what make up the left, so why would they exterminate themselves. Honestly I would suggest you do a little research before you continue to post, and can only go down hill from here if you dont!

[spartan max2]

16 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

That really makes no sense what so ever, the intellectuals are what make up the left, so why would they exterminate themselves. Honestly I would suggest you do a little research before you continue to post, and can only go down hill from here if you dont!

Oversword is talking about thing like Mao's cultural revolution and Pol Pots genocide. Both killed millions and killed/imprisoned/exiled many professors and students.

[Duke Wellington]

2 hours ago, aztek said:

yes, china turned from poor agricultural country into huge industrial base of the world, and it all happened in some 30 years, as soon as communist gvmnt of china opened door to capitalists and became them themselves,   only proves my point, capitalism promotes prosperity,  

i do not see many people trying immigrate to those countries, they are  not truly socialism either they have some capitalism as well, private means of production.

none of them, YOU are hilarious, if there was an angry smile i'd press it, for your pathetic attempt to use slavery wars genocide to somewhat boost your failing arguments, now since you brought those up, may i remind you of genocide, slavery, and wars  terror, revolutions on socialist side, , just count how many stalin and mao alone killed, your attempt at even going there is pathetic, cowardly, and insulting. 

Anybody that resorts to a Stalin or Hitler insults has already lost their argument so is trying to use social pressure to win a debate.

Capitalism is far superior to socialism.

What socialists cannot grasp is that nothing is free, even if they arent directly paying for it. To fund socialism then businesses need higher taxes levied on them. Higher taxes makes it hard for them to compete in price sensitive markets causing companies to relocate to keep their costs down. The result of socialism is that it doesnt reduce the number of working class, but drags down the middle into become working class too as industry is lost.

Socialism in the west has resulted in companies relocating to China, driving their own rise to riches. Meanwhile the number of decent jobs left behind has vastly declined.

[Gromdor]

6 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Anybody that resorts to a Stalin or Hitler insults has already lost their argument so is trying to use social pressure to win a debate.

Capitalism is far superior to socialism.

What socialists cannot grasp is that nothing is free, even if they arent directly paying for it. To fund socialism then businesses need higher taxes levied on them. Higher taxes makes it hard for them to compete in price sensitive markets causing companies to relocate to keep their costs down. The result of socialism is that it doesnt reduce the number of working class, but drags down the middle into become working class too as industry is lost.

Socialism in the west has resulted in companies relocating to China, driving their own rise to riches. Meanwhile the number of decent jobs left behind has vastly declined.

Good is also far superior to evil.  What people can't seem to grasp is that they are merely directions on the same sliding bar.  The ideal is a point in the middle.  

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

6 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

Capitalism is far superior to socialism.

What socialists cannot grasp is that nothing is free, even if they arent directly paying for it. To fund socialism then businesses need higher taxes levied on them. Higher taxes makes it hard for them to compete in price sensitive markets causing companies to relocate to keep their costs down. The result of socialism is that it doesnt reduce the number of working class, but drags down the middle into become working class too as industry is lost.

Socialism in the west has resulted in companies relocating to China, driving their own rise to riches. Meanwhile the number of decent jobs left behind has vastly declined.

Except the thing about capitalism is that everything has a price, and the people making money will pass it on so they don’t have to pay it. To fund capitalism, businesses need higher profit margins. Higher profit margins make it hard to employ a lot of people and pay them well without increasing prices. The result of capitalism is that it doesn’t reduce the number of employees but drags down employee pay or profit is lost. 
capitalism in the West has resulted in companies relocating to China, driving up profits for the companies due to lower wages in China. Meanwhile, the number of decent jobs left behind has vastly declined.

[Will Due]

 

The main difference between socialism and capitalism is that one of them gets a person out of bed in the morning earlier, than the other one.

 

 

[+OverSword]

1 hour ago, Manwon Lender said:

That really makes no sense what so ever, the intellectuals are what make up the left, so why would they exterminate themselves. Honestly I would suggest you do a little research before you continue to post, and can only go down hill from here if you dont!

ntellectuals were considered the "Stinking Old Ninth" and were widely persecuted—notable scholars and scientists such as Lao She, Fu Lei, Yao Tongbin, and Zhao Jiuzhang were killed or committed suicide. Schools and universities were closed with the college entrance exams cancelled. Over 10 million urban intellectual youths were sent to the countryside in the Down to the Countryside Movement.
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution
 

You’re high. I suggest you slam the brakes before you get to the bottom of the hill

Edited December 5, 2020 by OverSword

[Grim Reaper 6]

41 minutes ago, OverSword said:

ntellectuals were considered the "Stinking Old Ninth" and were widely persecuted—notable scholars and scientists such as Lao She, Fu Lei, Yao Tongbin, and Zhao Jiuzhang were killed or committed suicide. Schools and universities were closed with the college entrance exams cancelled. Over 10 million urban intellectual youths were sent to the countryside in the Down to the Countryside Movement.
 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution
 

You’re high. I suggest you slam the brakes before you get to the bottom of the hill

I don't drive a car with brakes, I slow down by taking my foot off the gas and down shifting and I certainly am not high at all because I am at the bottom of the hill, waiting for you!

Take Care.

[+OverSword]

3 minutes ago, Manwon Lender said:

I don't drive a car with brakes, I slow down by taking my foot off the gas and down shifting and I certainly am not high at all because I am at the bottom of the hill, waiting for you!

Take Care.

I have taken in refugees from El Salvador and Laos (one of my dearest and closest friends of many years) and had much experience with people from Vietnam and Cambodia. I know from true horror stories what the communists do to the wealthy and educated or those perceived to be when they grab power. 

[Grim Reaper 6]

5 minutes ago, OverSword said:

I have taken in refugees from El Salvador and Laos (one of my dearest and closest friends of many years) and had much experience with people from Vietnam and Cambodia. I know from true horror stories what the communists do to the wealthy and educated or those perceived to be when they grab power. 

I am not arguing that fact, you are right I miss read your oringinal comment, sorry about that.

[Horta]

On 12/4/2020 at 1:48 PM, OverSword said:

Good post but this part I don’t agree with. It’s not intellectuals the right has an issue with its communism. It’s the left which jails and exterminates the intellectuals when they take over not capitalists.

Fair enough, in times of instability, upheaval and what have you purges take the form of whatever suits the political agenda of those in power, or trying to reach power.

I should have specified that in western democracies, the left is heavily weighted to intellectuals, who have generally been viewed adversarially by the right. Epitomised by the Trump administration, who is not only an anti intellectual himself but seemed to stifle or fire anyone with any intellectual capacity in preference for a yes man. Generally the further to the right you are the more likely you are to be a creationist or climate change denier for instance. There have actually been all sorts of campaigns against not only science, but individual scientists.

That's not a rule though, there have been and are good intellectuals who veer to the right of politics. The left seems to have far more association with the intellectual sphere though, historically.

I listened to a billionaire CEO give a talk recently, who seemed to despise intellectuals and thought they gravitated to the left as failures who were jealous of his wealth lol. Seemed to sum things up somewhat.

[Duke Wellington]

7 hours ago, Sir Wearer of Hats said:

Except the thing about capitalism is that everything has a price, and the people making money will pass it on so they don’t have to pay it. To fund capitalism, businesses need higher profit margins. Higher profit margins make it hard to employ a lot of people and pay them well without increasing prices. The result of capitalism is that it doesn’t reduce the number of employees but drags down employee pay or profit is lost. 
capitalism in the West has resulted in companies relocating to China, driving up profits for the companies due to lower wages in China. Meanwhile, the number of decent jobs left behind has vastly declined.

You cannot support a whole country with 10s and even 100s of millions of people off a hi-tech economy.

The reason being is the majority arent intelligent enough to get the hi value qualifications required. Most people are right for low skilled positions, and such positions need to be providing them with decent wages. The answer is not socialism because that drives businesses out of price sensitive markets unless they relocate to somewhere like China. It also pushes down wages as such businesses attempt to stay put which is them keeping their labour costs down.

The answer is more capitalism, less socialism, and a Government which uses economic protectionism correctly. We dont want to protect incompetent businesses with no sustainable competitive advantage. But for those which have it (like Tata Steel) we should be protecting them.

[aztek]

9 hours ago, Horta said:

This thread is on socialism, is it not? Of which you claimed a high level of expertise. 

Yet you also claimed in post no.86 that Einstein fled from a "socialist heaven" (Nazi Germany). Do you genuinely believe that the Nazis were socialists? 

 

Lol, that is your argument????

The Nazi Party,^[a] officially the National Socialist German Workers' Party 

 

Edited December 5, 2020 by aztek