China detentions angers Parliamentarians

[Eldorado]

More than 150 parliamentarians from 18 countries have called on Hong Kong leader Carrie Lam to intervene to ensure justice for 12 people, the youngest of who is 16, who have been detained in mainland China while trying to flee the city by boat.

The 12, who had all faced charges in Hong Kong linked to anti-government protests, have been held virtually incommunicado in a mainland prison since they were detained at sea on Aug. 23, apparently while trying to reach the democratic island of Taiwan.

Full report at Reuters: Link

Related:

Joshua Wong, 24, one of Hong Kong’s most prominent democracy activists, was jailed on Wednesday for more than 13 months over an unlawful anti-government rally in 2019, the toughest and most high-profile sentence for an opposition figure this year.

Reuters

Edited December 2, 2020 by Eldorado

[Wistman]

I don't find it at all surprising.  Hong Kong is part of China.  The mainland Chinese patience with them ran out, and Lam needed to return to some kind of order in her city.  China doesn't tolerate subversion.  EOS

[SHaYap]

No governments tolerates subversion and citizens intent on overthrowing the ruling administration. 

~

[spartan max2]

Having to stop people from leaving you nation.

Locking up pro-democracy activist. Kicking out pro-democracy elected officials. 

The CCP sounds so great .

People love it so much that they can only maintain control with force and oppression.

Edited December 2, 2020 by spartan max2

[spartan max2]

35 minutes ago, The Wistman said:

I don't find it at all surprising.  Hong Kong is part of China.  The mainland Chinese patience with them ran out, and Lam needed to return to some kind of order in her city.  China doesn't tolerate subversion.  EOS

Yeah, those losers. How dare they want the same rights and freedoms as imperalistic Westerners 

Edited December 2, 2020 by spartan max2

[Wistman]

3 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Yeah, those losers. How dare they want the same rights and freedoms as imperalistic Westerners 

Maybe some Iago (Jimmy Lai) gave them the idea that assaulting and murdering people on subways was a great idea, and that the Chinese authorities would coddle them. 

Violence and destruction is okay now?  Does the end justify the means, and is violent and destructive subversion okay here as long as loud claims are made about 'rights and freedoms'?  Don't the murdered people have the right to be alive?  What about their freedom to have a life? 

[+OverSword]

16 year old kid held incommunicado in a country he'd never previously been to.  Yeah, china is super great.  

[+OverSword]

Just now, The Wistman said:

Maybe some Iago (Jimmy Lai) gave them the idea that assaulting and murdering people on subways was a great idea, and that the Chinese authorities would coddle them. 

Violence and destruction is okay now?  Does the end justify the means, and is violent and destructive subversion okay here as long as loud claims are made about 'rights and freedoms'?  Don't the murdered people have the right to be alive?  What about their freedom to have a life? 

Are you trying to actually say the Jimmy Lai murdered people on the subway or even ordered people murdered?  Link please, that sounds like news I would be aware of.

[spartan max2]

37 minutes ago, The Wistman said:

Maybe some Iago (Jimmy Lai) gave them the idea that assaulting and murdering people on subways was a great idea, and that the Chinese authorities would coddle them. 

Violence and destruction is okay now?  Does the end justify the means, and is violent and destructive subversion okay here as long as loud claims are made about 'rights and freedoms'?  Don't the murdered people have the right to be alive?  What about their freedom to have a life? 

Classic. Act like all thousands upon thousands of protesters are being violent so that you can ignore the actual reasons for the protest.

I wonder what playbook you took that from...

There was a landslide pro-democracy victory during the last election, making it clear the population stood with the protesters. After that the CCP decided they need to crack down. (Because heaven forbid people think the "wrong" way)

The brave activist being locked up did nonething other than non-violently protest for their rights. The most unforgivable of crimes . People wanting the right to choose their own leaders? Unforgivable lol. 

Let me ask you plainly. Do you believe people have to right to vote for their leaders? Do you believe people have the right to media independent from the state? What about the right to protest?

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by spartan max2

[spartan max2]

Not to mention the accusations of violence coming from the CCP sounds like a sick ironic joke after the blood bath of Tiananmen Square. 

[Wistman]

1 minute ago, OverSword said:

Are you trying to actually say the Jimmy Lai murdered people on the subway or even ordered people murdered?  Link please, that sounds like news I would be aware of.

   Nope I didn't say that. 

From his newsroom he sponsored the protests in the face of the increasing VIOLENCE, remember and destruction of property..I thought those things mattered but silly me.  He and his son and several members of his newsroom were arrested (and released on bail) for colluding with a foreign power related to their sponsorship of the protests.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/hong-kong-jimmy-lai-arrest/2020/08/09/d7312f20-daa4-11ea-b205-ff838e15a9a6_story.html  

He has just recently been charged with fraud but it seems the national security charges have not been pressed: https://www.newindianexpress.com/world/2020/dec/02/pro-democracy-hong-kong-publisher-charged-with-fraud-amid-crackdown-2231001.html

Quote

[Dec. 2] 

HONG KONG: A pro-democracy Hong Kong media tycoon who was arrested during a crackdown on dissent was charged Wednesday with fraud but no national security offences, two newspapers reported.

Jimmy Lai of Next Digital, which owns the Apple Daily newspaper, was among 10 people arrested Aug.10 on what police said was suspicion of violating a national security law and collusion with a foreign country.

Lai, 71, was later released on bail but police raided his company's offices in October.

We are of course supportive of freedom of the press and rightly so, but the tenor of the protests, the disruption of Hong Kong's business and social norms, and the supposed possibility of Lai's press being used to further the goals of a foreign power, whether or not that is provable, were certain to rankle the mainland Chinese, who are not really inclined to view Hong Kong and Lai in particular as entirely separate from their authority.  I am not, therefore, surprised at the arrests and the imprisonment of the students leaders, who organized and led the protests which were violent and in a few cases, murderous.  Not surprised, okay?

And I have to say, I heard no such support for the long enduring protests against the French government's incursions on the rights and liberties of the citizens there, including retributive police actions that injured many in many cities.  But now in far away Hong Kong, everybody's very upset.  That is interesting, and seemingly selective, at least to my eyes.

[Wistman]

33 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Classic. Act like all thousands upon thousands of protesters are being violent so that you can ignore the actual reasons for the protest.

I wonder what playbook you took that from...

There was a landslide pro-democracy victory during the last election, making it clear the population stood with the protesters. After that the CCP decided they need to crack down. (Because heaven forbid people think the "wrong" way)

The brave activist being locked up did nonething other than non-violently protest for their rights. The most unforgivable of crimes . People wanting the right to choose their own leaders? Unforgivable lol. 

Let me ask you plainly. Do you believe people have to right to vote for their leaders? Do you believe people have the right to media independent from the state? What about the right to protest?

 

Provocative.  Keep your silly questions for somebody more malleable than myself, your framing is ridiculous and sophomoric sir.

I am not in favor of violence being used as a political weapon.  Ever.  There was a lot of violence in these protests. It is not surprising that the mainland Chinese would use it as a pretext for tightening their grip.  It is not surprising that the leaders of the protests would be arrested and incarcerated for subversion.

My beliefs are not the issue in this discussion though you'd apparently like to make them so.

[spartan max2]

3 minutes ago, The Wistman said:

Provocative.  Keep your silly questions for somebody more malleable than myself, your framing is ridiculous and sophomoric sir.

I am not in favor of violence being used as a political weapon.  Ever.  There was a lot of violence in these protests. It is not surprising that the mainland Chinese would use it as a pretext for tightening their grip.  It is not surprising that the leaders of the protests would be arrested and incarcerated for subversion.

My beliefs are not the issue in this discussion though you'd apparently like to make them so.

You're downplaying the oppression of human rights because you're "not suprised by it."

You don't blame the oppressed for their oppression.  

Pro- democracy legislators removed from office.

Professors fired. 

Activist arrested.

Media disbanded. 

It's obviously a purge. With a government like the CCP "subversion" means whatever you want it to mean. Like the things we take for granted. The right to protest, vote, free media.

 

Idk if it makes you feel "counter culture", gives you some pride, or what have you. Or  maybe you're one of those people who are so anti-U.S that you can't say anything negative about China. 

But these points are not sophomoric.

It's basic human rights. If you downplay it then you're not supporting them. 

 

 

 

[+OverSword]

36 minutes ago, The Wistman said:

the disruption of Hong Kong's business and social norms,

So you believe that the protests are responsible for this and not the imposition of a government nobody on the Island ever desired to be part of, who's families actually fled for their lives to avoid being ruled by?  I think the protests were the symptom not the disease. Look at it this way, if England had left and then the mainland just let HK rule itself as a sovereign entity would there be protests?  No, of course there wouldn't be.  If you push me and then I push you back who is the aggressor?

[Wistman]

pffft.   It seems to me that you many here have been encouraged by the press to be upset because it's China, the current bete noir.  

I've been to Hong Kong, very nice city, though it seems its economic dominance is in decline lately.  That may have a part to play in the residents' current dismay.

I'm not that upset by it, no. 

 

 

[spartan max2]

1 minute ago, The Wistman said:

pffft.   It seems to me that you many here have been encouraged by the press to be upset because it's China, the current bete noir.  

I've been to Hong Kong, very nice city, though it seems its economic dominance is in decline lately.  That may have a part to play in the residents' current dismay.

I'm not that upset by it, no. 

 

 

Yeah. Who cares about the problems of far away people, am I right .

You already have your rights.

[Wistman]

2 minutes ago, OverSword said:

So you believe that the protests are responsible for this and not the imposition of a government nobody on the Island ever desired to be part of, who's families actually fled for their lives to avoid being ruled by?  I think the protests were the symptom not the disease. Look at it this way, if England had left and then the mainland just let HK rule itself as a sovereign entity would there be protests?  No, of course there wouldn't be.  If you push me and then I push you back who is the aggressor?

The Chinese now have sovereignty over Hong Kong.  The anglicized citizenry may not have desired this outcome, but the lease the British had on the island expired, and China regained its sovereignty over the territory, legally.  If the citizens of Hong Kong didn't see this coming, eventually, they should have expatriated, though that may not have been possible for many.

Look, I'm done here everybody.  FWIW, I care about many things, Hong Kong not so much.  I'm surprised so many do.

My beliefs are not for discussion on these boards.

[Wistman]

2 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Yeah. Who cares about the problems of far away people, am I right .

You already have your rights.

I care about many things and many far away people.  This is a politically hot discussion, because the powers that be have made it so.  There were not many concerns voiced here, as I've already said, about the protests in Europe particularly in France, for the past couple years because the powers that be didn't want attention to be given to their concerns.  So much for the problems of far away people, people. 

You have your rights too.  Have you considered the rights of the people in central Africa lately?

Now I'm done with this discussion.  Have at it.

[+OverSword]

1 minute ago, The Wistman said:

The Chinese now have sovereignty over Hong Kong.  The anglicized citizenry may not have desired this outcome, but the lease the British had on the island expired, and China regained its sovereignty over the territory, legally.  If the citizens of Hong Kong didn't see this coming, eventually, they should have expatriated, though that may not have been possible for many.

Look, I'm done here everybody.  FWIW, I care about many things, Hong Kong not so much.  I'm surprised so many do.

My beliefs are not for discussion on these boards.

The current Chinese government never held Hong Kong until after England surrendered it, just like Taiwan.  It's populated with people that don't want to be part of the mainland and just like Taiwan by people who fled to avoid such an outcome.  Nobody on these Islands are big enough to stop China from taking over or they would.  This is imperialism plain and simple, something the rest of the world has been breaking away from for nearly one hundred years.  

Quote

My beliefs are not for discussion on these boards.

Then why are you participating?  You may not have a defense for those beliefs, or realize they make you look bad?

[+OverSword]

20 minutes ago, The Wistman said:

I care about many things and many far away people.  This is a politically hot discussion, because the powers that be have made it so.  There were not many concerns voiced here, as I've already said, about the protests in Europe particularly in France, for the past couple years because the powers that be didn't want attention to be given to their concerns.  So much for the problems of far away people, people. 

You have your rights too.  Have you considered the rights of the people in central Africa lately?

Now I'm done with this discussion.  Have at it.

Code for, I support communist China but can't really defend them and appear to be moral.  

If you look in the European section I have started threads about issues in France and other European nations, and if you look in the other places section you will see I have also started threads about tragedies in African countries, (though not recently). 

 

My issue is there is an island full of people who were born there because they didn't want to be ruled by the mainland but who now have the option of only being ruled by the mainland because they can't fight back.

Edited December 2, 2020 by OverSword

[spartan max2]

36 minutes ago, The Wistman said:

I care about many things and many far away people.  This is a politically hot discussion, because the powers that be have made it so.  There were not many concerns voiced here, as I've already said, about the protests in Europe particularly in France, for the past couple years because the powers that be didn't want attention to be given to their concerns.  So much for the problems of far away people, people. 

You have your rights too.  Have you considered the rights of the people in central Africa lately?

Now I'm done with this discussion.  Have at it.

This is what is called a straw man argument.

No one made any claims downplaying the oppression of people across the globe. 

You are the one downplaying CCP oppression and making some pretty big false equivlance suggestions. 

Tell me, did the French and U.S  governments charge protesters, activist leaders with "subversion", any politicans disqualified for protesting?

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by spartan max2

[spartan max2]

25 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Code for, I support communist China but can't really defend them and appear to be moral.  

If you look in the European section I have started threads about issues in France and other European nations, and if you look in the other places section you will see I have also started threads about tragedies in African countries, (though not recently). 

 

My issue is there is an island full of people who were born there because they didn't want to be ruled by the mainland but who now have the option of only being ruled by the mainland because they can't fight back.

He wants to give very soft, indirect, subtle defenses, without clearly stating what he does and does not support.

[+OverSword]

1 minute ago, spartan max2 said:

He wants to give very soft, indirect, subtle defenses, without clearly stating what he does and does not support.

It's an easy thing to say legally china is the government in HK and then get on with your life.  If it doesn't bother you then it doesn't bother you.  I don't participate in threads I don't care about either. 

[spartan max2]

18 minutes ago, OverSword said:

It's an easy thing to say legally china is the government in HK and then get on with your life.  If it doesn't bother you then it doesn't bother you.  I don't participate in threads I don't care about either. 

Exactly. You can't make six post and then claim you don't care lol.

Like I, obviously, do care. My friend's parents fled Hong Kong during the handover. Got a duel citizenship in Canada. 

Not that personal expierence should even be required to care.

I honestly believe the CCP is one of the darkest regimes currently in existence. 

There are other governments doing equally horrible things if not worse, yes. But the CCP standardized it. They do it systematically, brutally effective oppression. The CCP is a threat to everyone's freedom so my heart genuinely goes out to the Hong Kongers.

They are up against impossible odds. Truly brave people.

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2020 by spartan max2

[+OverSword]

14 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Exactly. You can't make six post and then claim you don't care lol.

Like I, obviously, do care. My friend's parents fled Hong Kong during the handover. Got a duel citizenship in Canada. 

Not that personal expierence should even be required to care.

I honestly believe the CCP is one of the darkest regimes currently in existence. 

There are other governments doing equally horrible things if not worse, yes. But the CCP standardized it. They do it systematically, brutally effective oppression. The CCP is a threat to everyone's freedom so my heart genuinely goes out to the Hong Kongers.

They are up against impossible odds. Truly brave people.

 

I know a few people who's families left HK well before the Chinese takeover because they knew it was down the road and were from formerly wealthy well educated families and knew what Mao did to those types.  They moved first to England and then to the US and are citizens here.  They're pretty tight lipped but have let a few things slip indicating family tragedies thanks to the communist's.