Intelligent life extremely rare, study claims

[astrobeing]

1 minute ago, Tatetopa said:

I would say adaptable species tended to survive them.

You don't have to since it's a fact.

5 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Intelligence is only one method of being adaptable.   

The evidence shows that it's the best trait by far. In the past 60,000 years no other species has had anywhere near as much success as humans have. It wasn't because we were good at running (although that helped). With fire and shelter we can survive in almost any conditions.

[+Desertrat56]

4 hours ago, jethrofloyd said:

Intelligent life is extremely rare on the Earth, let alone in the Universe.

That's what I was thinking too.   

[Tatetopa]

1 hour ago, astrobeing said:

The evidence shows that it's the best trait by far. In the past 60,000 years no other species has had anywhere near as much success as humans have. It wasn't because we were good at running (although that helped). With fire and shelter we can survive in almost any conditions.

How do you measure success?  Is it that there are seven billion of us and we dominate every ecological niche on the planet?  How long have roaches, rats, ants, tardigrades, fungi, and  bacteria been around?   How widespread are they?

The more complex and specialized members of a society become the more fragile the structure.  Not so bad when everybody can make the three needed flint survival tools to hunt and gather.    Not so easy when 90%+ of the population are lawyers, stock brokers, auto mechanics, nuclear physicist's, astronomers, and hair dressers. , 

[astrobeing]

Just now, Tatetopa said:

How do you measure success?  Is it that there are seven billion of us and we dominate every ecological niche on the planet?  How long have roaches, rats, ants, tardigrades, fungi, and  bacteria been around?   How widespread are they?

You won't find ants, rats, or roaches in Antarctica. You will find humans though.

Just now, Tatetopa said:

The more complex and specialized members of a society become the more fragile the structure.  Not so bad when everybody can make the three needed flint survival tools to hunt and gather.    Not so easy when 90%+ of the population are lawyers, stock brokers, auto mechanics, nuclear physicist's, astronomers, and hair dressers. , 

So that would leave 700 million humans to repopulate the planet after the next extinction event. That would put our population back down to what it was in the early 18th century, but it should come back a lot faster the second time since we'll still have most of the knowledge we had before. Anyone who wants to wipe humans out is going to have a hard time!

[Tatetopa]

4 minutes ago, astrobeing said:

You won't find ants, rats, or roaches in Antarctica. You will find humans though.

Well, an outside observer might say that was because Antarctica is the only place humans have not been out competed by other species.

6 minutes ago, astrobeing said:

So that would leave 700 million humans to repopulate the planet after the next extinction event. That would put our population back down to what it was in the early 18th century, but it should come back a lot faster the second time since we'll still have most of the knowledge we had before. Anyone who wants to wipe humans out is going to have a hard time!

First convince them that infectious diseases are no big deal.  Then let them forget how important bees are to crop pollination.  

You might find this book interesting,  It reviews historical examples of societies that failed or went extinct.

I took us far afield.  As for the OP, I tend to agree that intelligent life is rare.  I don't think intelligence is as much of a bulwark against extinction as some do.

[astrobeing]

54 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

You might find this book interesting,  It reviews historical examples of societies that failed or went extinct.

I've read it. It shows what happens when humans are confined to small areas which humans as a species aren't fortunately.

I've found that people who think humans are doomed as a species are the ones doing most to doom them. Fortunately they're a minority so I don't think intelligent species are automatically doomed.

[Tatetopa]

1 hour ago, astrobeing said:

I've read it. It shows what happens when humans are confined to small areas which humans as a species aren't fortunately.

I've found that people who think humans are doomed as a species are the ones doing most to doom them. Fortunately they're a minority so I don't think intelligent species are automatically doomed.

Well neither do I, nor is survival assured.  We just play the game and try to do it smartly.  Though for the  moment, we are confined to a small space, the Earth.

[+joc]

4 hours ago, astrobeing said:

You won't find ants, rats, or roaches in Antarctica. You will find humans though.

You won't find humans either naked and alone wandering around.                                                                                                 

[astrobeing]

1 minute ago, joc said:

You won't find humans either naked and alone wandering around.                                                                                                 

See how intelligence is a huge advantage in survival and adaptability?

[+joc]

Just now, astrobeing said:

See how intelligence is a huge advantage in survival and adaptability?

No.   I have been killing fireants on my property for 13 years.  Cannot annihilate them.   Long after humans are extinct, the fire ants will still be here...along with the weeds.    I think if a planet has any life...sooner or later that life will evolve into beings with intelligence.   There are trillions of galaxies, each having billions of star systems.  But even if there was  intelligent life on our closest star we would never know it.  Intelligence doesn't necessarily mean the ability to send out or receive radio waves.  

[astrobeing]

1 minute ago, joc said:

No.   I have been killing fireants on my property for 13 years.  Cannot annihilate them.   Long after humans are extinct, the fire ants will still be here...along with the weeds. 

Move to Antarctica. There are no fireants or weeds there, but there are intelligent humans who have figured out how to survive there.

And I'm sure humans will eventually kill everything they don't like on the planet.

[Dejarma]

1 minute ago, joc said:

Intelligence doesn't necessarily mean the ability to send out or receive radio waves.  

like dolphins do you mean? Yeah. I agree... Who determines intelligence- what yard -stick are we using here?? In this context= humans it seems- fascinating isn't it

[+joc]

4 minutes ago, Dejarma said:

like dolphins do you mean? Yeah. I agree... Who determines intelligence- what yard -stick are we using here?? In this context= humans it seems- fascinating isn't it

I find it  fascinating that we spend billions of dollars sending out radio waves looking for intelligent life in the cosmos.  If radio waves are the calling card of the intelligent...then we only became intelligent as a species 125 years ago.   Not really intelligent when you think that we may be making ourselves known to an Intelligent Alien Society like...I don't know...The Borg!

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by joc

[Dejarma]

2 minutes ago, joc said:

I find it  fascinating that we spend billions of dollars sending out radio waves looking for intelligent life in the cosmos.  If radio waves are the calling card of the intelligent...then we only became intelligent as a species 125 years ago.   Not really intelligent when you think that we may be making ourselves known to an Intelligent Alien Society like...I don't know...The Borg!

 

yep exactly- this has always been the problem I've had with this kinda thing!

There's no getting away from the 'FACT' that we really have no idea what's out there, & what it's feelings/ capabilities are!

[+joc]

2 minutes ago, Dejarma said:

yep exactly- this has always been the problem I've had with this kinda thing!

There's no getting away from the 'FACT' that we really have no idea what's out there, & what it's feelings/ capabilities are!

Seriously!  Who goes into the forest at night yelling ...heeellllllooooo is there anybody out there?   I can't think of one species I would want to meet in the forest at night...especially human.  

[+joc]

20 minutes ago, astrobeing said:

Move to Antarctica. There are no fireants or weeds there, but there are intelligent humans who have figured out how to survive there.

And I'm sure humans will eventually kill everything they don't like on the planet.

I'm sure humans will eventually annihilate themselves.  I just don't think 'surviving  in Antarctica' is a sign of intelligence.  Kind of stupid if you ask me.  I'm not saying you are stupid btw...I'm just saying survivability of a species isn't the definition of intelligence that I think we all understand.

[astrobeing]

1 minute ago, joc said:

I'm sure humans will eventually annihilate themselves.

I've noticed that a lot of humans are counting on this.

[glorybebe]

9 hours ago, astrobeing said:

They are not assumptions. They are conclusions based on two hundred years of analysis of evidence collected on Earth. Nothing in this evidence remotely suggests that the emergence and evolution of life on our planet was influenced by any intelligence therefore that theory has certainly been proven wrong.

Science works with evidence, not unfounded speculation.

And this is where I agree with Papa.  All the 'evidence' is based on Earth.  Do all planets have to have the exact same conditions as Earth to produce life?  There are so many variables out there that could produce intelligent life, but we can't base everything on what happened here on Earth.  That is just small minded IMO.

[openozy]

21 minutes ago, astrobeing said:

I've noticed that a lot of humans are counting on this.

I think the planet is.

[astrobeing]

15 minutes ago, glorybebe said:

And this is where I agree with Papa.  All the 'evidence' is based on Earth.  Do all planets have to have the exact same conditions as Earth to produce life?  There are so many variables out there that could produce intelligent life, but we can't base everything on what happened here on Earth.  That is just small minded IMO.

So you're saying that since we don't have any extraterrestrial evidence that we should just make extraterrestrial evidence up from our imaginations? As I said twice so far this is called "speculation" and that should never be confused with actual evidence. Remember we're discussing a scientific study, not people's opinions.

Tell me more about these "many variables out there that could produce intelligent life". I studied a lot of chemistry and organic chemistry in college but I've never come across these "variables". I have come across them in science fiction.

[glorybebe]

21 minutes ago, astrobeing said:

So you're saying that since we don't have any extraterrestrial evidence that we should just make extraterrestrial evidence up from our imaginations? As I said twice so far this is called "speculation" and that should never be confused with actual evidence. Remember we're discussing a scientific study, not people's opinions.

Tell me more about these "many variables out there that could produce intelligent life". I studied a lot of chemistry and organic chemistry in college but I've never come across these "variables". I have come across them in science fiction.

No, I am not saying make stuff up! Where did you get that.  What I am saying is that we cannot base every planet on Earth.  Look at the different planets in our solar system.  Look at astronomers thinking life could be in Venus's atmosphere.  How different is Venus's atmosphere from Earth.  Even with the possibility dwindling that life could be supported there, how did astronomers get the idea?  Not every planet will be the same. Not every planet will have the exact same conditions as Earth.  The whole point us we do not know.  Trying to put all other planets into the exact same conditions as Earth is making assumptions that life can only start if the planets is exactly like Earth.  They cannot say that without out proof.

[Abramelin]

7 hours ago, astrobeing said:

Move to Antarctica. There are no fireants or weeds there, but there are intelligent humans who have figured out how to survive there.

And I'm sure humans will eventually kill everything they don't like on the planet.

https://www.nature.com/news/2011/110404/full/news.2011.207.html

[+joc]

5 hours ago, glorybebe said:

Trying to put all other planets into the exact same conditions as Earth is making assumptions that life can only start if the planets is exactly like Earth. 

I'm kind of having a problem with that.  I have heard of theories of, for instance, Silicone based life forms.  Mmmmm...no.  We have to begin with the assumption that all life must be carbon based because all life is carbon based.  In fact...all life that we know of is on Earth.  

Then there are arguments to what really constitutes life.  Is a hunk of chicken muscle grown in a lab life?  Is some microbial something in the atmosphere of Venus life?  

I just have to fall back to the physics of it all.  There are trillions of galaxies.  But we know that every single galaxy...every single star system...all of it is within the realm of our own understanding  of physics.  Otherwise we wouldn't know all we know about the Universe.  Physics doesn't change because some planets are in galaxies a million light years away.

but as @Tatetopa correctly mused...the word rare is a bit ambiguous.   The thinking is that the odds are great that life exists on other planets.  But the thinking that it is a rare thing isn't really new.  It has to be rare.  Because as far as we actually know.  We are it.  And...we do know more or less how life began on this planet.  So, it is within the realm of scientific thought that the same circumstances might happen somewhere else.  But since there is no other life in the universe that we know of, we do kind of have to go with the thought that carbon based life forms are the only life forms.  

 

[+joc]

9 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

https://www.nature.com/news/2011/110404/full/news.2011.207.html

That was an interesting read! 

[+joc]

7 hours ago, astrobeing said:

See how intelligence is a huge advantage in survival and adaptability?

Don't Penguins live in Antarctica?