Intelligent life extremely rare, study claims

[Abramelin]

1 hour ago, Abramelin said:

Let me put it differently:

 we did indeed find evidence of simple ancient life forms. What, 3.5 billions of years old or even older?

How can you be so damned sure whether that simple ancient life form originated on earth?  What logic do you use to determine whether this life form originated on earth, or that it came here with a comet or meteor?

There are 2 options:

A: life originated on earth;

B: life came from outside the earth

ad A: up to now there have only been educated guesses about where on earth life started. How, by what processes it came into being, we have no real clue.

ad B: up to now we haven't found any traces of life in meteorites. We only know, that primitive earth-born life is able (by means of experiments) to survive space for some time.

There is NO definitive evidence for either A or B.

 

 

 

[astrobeing]

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

True but its not extraordinary to claim that panspermia could have occurred. especially now that we know bacterial life can survive the conditions  encountered in space for long enough to make the journey

No, we don't know if bacteria could have survived those conditions because we haven't reproduced them exactly.

Green bunny rabbits from Alpha Centauri could have spawned life by pooping into our oceans. It could have happened.

11 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

 It falls within the possible, and even probable, means by which life here may have begun and evolved.

Probable? Not with absolutely zero evidence that it happened. I would sooner believe ufoguy's tales of aliens living inside the Moon.

And you're avoiding the huge massive hole in the theory: how did life on Mars emerge in the first place to miraculously infect this fortunate asteroid that somehow went on this miraculous journey through our solar system, surviving vacuum, intense radiation and near absolute zero degree temperatures to, through yet another miracle, fall upon another planet which just happened to have the exactly the right conditions to support this alien life?

My gosh, did another asteroid from Jupiter land on Mars and start life there? And if that's true, where did that life come from? Saturn? Oh mystery upon mystery!!!

[astrobeing]

8 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

There are 2 options:

A: life originated on earth;

B: life came from outside the earth

So what you do is you start with the simplest theory that fits the evidence we've collected so far. That would be A.

Until you have evidence for B (or some other theory), you stick with A.

[Abramelin]

17 minutes ago, astrobeing said:

So what you do is you start with the simplest theory that fits the evidence we've collected so far. That would be A.

Until you have evidence for B (or some other theory), you stick with A.

What evidence did we collect so far? None.

[spud the mackem]

Have scientific minds ever been proven wrong , ok we have no wings so we can't fly , we can't breathe under water , but when another bunch of scientists discover the aeroplane ,then we can fly ,and they discovered how to breathe underwater , so when one lot say it can't be done another lot say it can ,nothing is impossible , when we have the intelligence to make it happen . There must be other intelligence in the universe , but until they or us discover how to communicate it remains a mystery but maybe one day it will happen .

[astrobeing]

27 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

What evidence did we collect so far? None.

Just all the life on Earth.

[Abramelin]

4 minutes ago, astrobeing said:

Just all the life on Earth.

That's no evidence.

Life started here, many billions of years ago. All life on Earth descended from that first life.

But nothing tells me that that first life form originated on Earth, or came from outside Earth.

[astrobeing]

25 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

That's no evidence.

Scientists disagree with you. You're not a scientist so believe whatever you want.

[Abramelin]

5 minutes ago, astrobeing said:

Scientists disagree with you. You're not a scientist so believe whatever you want.

Well, if you are a scientist - which I seriously doubt - then please explain.

[astrobeing]

1 minute ago, Abramelin said:

Well, if you are a scientist - which I seriously doubt - then please explain.

To find out what is considered evidence in the scientific community, I recommend that you take some science classes at your local community college.

[Abramelin]

2 minutes ago, astrobeing said:

To find out what is considered evidence in the scientific community, I recommend that you take some science classes at your local community college.

I suggest you do the same.

Or else: post some links to papers that convinced you. You most certainly will be familiar with a couple of those.

[astrobeing]

6 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I suggest you do the same.

I have a degree in electrochemistry and I have a patent (with two other electrochemists) in plasma electroplating. I'm not community college material.

6 hours ago, Abramelin said:

Or else: post some links to papers that convinced you. You most certainly will be familiar with a couple of those.

Why would I bother? To be frank you haven't demonstrated any understanding of the basics of science and all my attempts at explaining them to you have been a waste of my time.

[Abramelin]

Yeah, you keep saying that. Now post some links to papers  or else please keep silent if you are unable to post anything substantial and less arrogant.

[Grim Reaper 6]

11 hours ago, astrobeing said:

To find out what is considered evidence in the scientific community, I recommend that you take some science classes at your local community college.

That's not the only way to gain some information on this subject, there are literally 100s of Peer Reviewed Papers on the Subject.

[Abramelin]

14 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

Yeah, you keep saying that. Now post some links to papers  or else please keep silent if you are unable to post anything substantial and less arrogant.

I will start:

https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2018ApJ...868L..12G/abstract

[Grim Reaper 6]

13 hours ago, astrobeing said:

No, we don't know if bacteria could have survived those conditions because we haven't reproduced them exactly.

Green bunny rabbits from Alpha Centauri could have spawned life by pooping into our oceans. It could have happened.

Probable? Not with absolutely zero evidence that it happened. I would sooner believe ufoguy's tales of aliens living inside the Moon.

And you're avoiding the huge massive hole in the theory: how did life on Mars emerge in the first place to miraculously infect this fortunate asteroid that somehow went on this miraculous journey through our solar system, surviving vacuum, intense radiation and near absolute zero degree temperatures to, through yet another miracle, fall upon another planet which just happened to have the exactly the right conditions to support this alien life?

My gosh, did another asteroid from Jupiter land on Mars and start life there? And if that's true, where did that life come from? Saturn? Oh mystery upon mystery!!!

Do know what Tardigrade is?

Well they can not only survive in space they can also lay eggs which will hatch and outlive the adults and also produce young of their own!

So your comment about Bacteria is completely wrong, because Tardigrades are a carbon based life form, and the fact that they are extremophiles has nothing to with this subject.

Here is a Academic Peer Reviewed Research Article on the Subject!!

https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/42738255/Tardigrade_resistance_to_space_effects_f20160216-3962-1qjh4me.pdf?1455648750=&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DTardigrade_Resistance_to_Space_Effects_F.pdf&Expires=1607672520&Signature=U9NCn7Rh3kX6zdjKc9no7xSnzQqp39JlzW-GeDtr5kaUE93VicJ9YUGdG-5zTZpoAcc3wZFaxTLwpmbgueysZvaUT92eYR7j1JJ3ckLtFHUnhtqtlgXJE-ylyXPaTuI2rtvzbUilMDcdKL6a0mI0e0ksIN~myrelWcWVmaHfXP4znQutCbefQtNt6HNRrJuLffjPeoA8e6S3v8Qo50igbRxGZKSp104ph1DgKimifTMNW6BceGvKrA2HNgx64~sltmNyKHtCPb7C0Sm4AidZiLUmGeVxhq3DYn4HvJDRS41pLkgJAHtjJ-Re4CY5htY~dXCIYDh~UsK4imE6RmWdLQ__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA

Beyond the Tardigrades you claim that life did not exist on Mars, which is an opinion not shared by researchers in the Martian Field of study: Based upon studies I have done on this subject, most reputable Scientists believe with little doubt that Microbial Life at a minimum existed on MARS before the Planet cooled and lost most of it's Magnetic Field and Atmosphere.

The Case for a Wet, Warm Climate on Early Mars

http://lunar.earth.northwestern.edu/courses/438/pollack1987.pdf

DEFINING ‘LIFE’

https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/43443609/Cleland_Chyba.OLEB.pdf?1457328818=&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DDefining_life.pdf&Expires=1607674340&Signature=NNc4hVIJ7IxOjm9mYcmypcshs5JT55KNmOCcThaW~P7qKK5cIyus7b6I9KhOT3aZF01d2TjdMua0XtitHpY5UHWXLncwmlBISoR-crBoBjtSOV3p9tRngpZvOB8JxApc65J4nn2T1hZowU5ZpIxo0RaXRCqeMPikUFeXEjSbP22myP2t3i8Nn5m2HrYzmoxjK38m2cfhzjoyfezcsxwpniEXG7GLf-A3B11gOMQhkCWUBe6MhZxglAjFMQgeN5WaaTaFOffsnwMRwyeyXJ-oSibACskgwZpnjfPSNSNaUoelmvKhrMzjyCyXrTkIoYz4zNtfi1s0QTmOPAZCBK6eww__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZA

Tolerances of Deinococcus geothermalis Biofilms and Planktonic Cells Exposed to Space and Simulated Martian Conditions in Low Earth Orbit for Almost Two Years

https://d1wqtxts1xzle7.cloudfront.net/43443609/Cleland_Chyba.OLEB.pdf?1457328818=&response-content-disposition=inline%3B+filename%3DDefining_life.pdf&Expires=1607674340&Signature=NNc4hVIJ7IxOjm9mYcmypcshs5JT55KNmOCcThaW~P7qKK5cIyus7b6I9KhOT3aZF01d2TjdMua0XtitHpY5UHWXLncwmlBISoR-crBoBjtSOV3p9tRngpZvOB8JxApc65J4nn2T1hZowU5ZpIxo0RaXRCqeMPikUFeXEjSbP22myP2t3i8Nn5m2HrYzmoxjK38m2cfhzjoyfezcsxwpniEXG7GLf-A3B11gOMQhkCWUBe6MhZxglAjFMQgeN5WaaTaFOffsnwMRwyeyXJ-oSibACskgwZpnjfPSNSNaUoelmvKhrMzjyCyXrTkIoYz4zNtfi1s0QTmOPAZCBK6eww__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAJLOHF5GGSLRBV4ZAhttps://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/42ba/eb358c87532c1dd7aa3be144010c82b93356.pdf

Outgassing History and Escape of the Martian Atmosphere and Water Inventory

https://arxiv.org/pdf/1506.06569.pdf

Edited December 11, 2020 by Manwon Lender

[Mr Walker]

13 hours ago, astrobeing said:

No, we don't know if bacteria could have survived those conditions because we haven't reproduced them exactly.

Green bunny rabbits from Alpha Centauri could have spawned life by pooping into our oceans. It could have happened.

Probable? Not with absolutely zero evidence that it happened. I would sooner believe ufoguy's tales of aliens living inside the Moon.

And you're avoiding the huge massive hole in the theory: how did life on Mars emerge in the first place to miraculously infect this fortunate asteroid that somehow went on this miraculous journey through our solar system, surviving vacuum, intense radiation and near absolute zero degree temperatures to, through yet another miracle, fall upon another planet which just happened to have the exactly the right conditions to support this alien life?

My gosh, did another asteroid from Jupiter land on Mars and start life there? And if that's true, where did that life come from? Saturn? Oh mystery upon mystery!!!

I gave you  the source which showed that  a colony of bacteria when exposed to space for the period of time needed to get from  earth to mars survived by forming a shell of dead individuals around the living mass of them 

If bacteria can survive like this, then it raises the possibility to a probability   (not a certainty )  There are degrees of probability  

It is now suspected (perhaps even known)  that, for a long period, Mars had large ocean of water  (about the size of the  arctic ocean ) and an atmosphere So if life could begin on earth,  it equally could have evolved on Mars  .

quote

Observations of the Red Planet indicate that rivers and oceans may have been prominent features in its early history. Billions of years ago, Mars was a warm and wet world that could have supported microbial life in some regions. But the planet is smaller than Earth, with less gravity and a thinner atmosphere. Over time, as liquid water evaporated, more and more of it escaped into space, allowing less to fall back to the surface of the planet.

https://www.space.com/17048-water-on-mars.html

 

quote

A primitive ocean on Mars held more water than Earth’s Arctic Ocean, according to NASA scientists who, using ground-based observatories, measured water signatures in the Red Planet’s atmosphere.

Scientists have been searching for answers to why this vast water supply left the surface. Details of the observations and computations appear in Thursday’s edition of Science magazine.

“Our study provides a solid estimate of how much water Mars once had, by determining how much water was lost to space,” said Geronimo Villanueva, a scientist at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland, and lead author of the new paper. “With this work, we can better understand the history of water on Mars.”

Perhaps about 4.3 billion years ago, Mars would have had enough water to cover its entire surface in a liquid layer about 450 feet (137 meters) deep. More likely, the water would have formed an ocean occupying almost half of Mars’ northern hemisphere, in some regions reaching depths greater than a mile (1.6 kilometers).

https://www.nasa.gov/press/2015/march/nasa-research-suggests-mars-once-had-more-water-than-earth-s-arctic-ocean

 

Radiation and cold didn't kill the bacteria sent into space, and so we know the y can survive long periods in space. 

It is already feared that  earth bacteria introduced onto the Martian surface over the long history of landers, explorers etc,  might have survived and be colonising mars. This could also  occur naturally.

 Not saying it did, just that it is more than just  possible 

[Grim Reaper 6]

47 minutes ago, Abramelin said:

I will start:

https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2018ApJ...868L..12G/abstract

Here are a few articles you may find useful these Article are Peer Reviewed Scientific Studies on the Subject:  If you would like more when you are finished with these let me know, enjoy and I hope this helps you.

Galactic Panspermia

https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.3847/2041-8213/aaef2d/pdf

Progress in Biophysics and Molecular Biology

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0079610719301129

PROTECTION OF BACTERIAL SPORES IN SPACE, A CONTRIBUTION TO THE DISCUSSION ON PANSPERMIA

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Verena_Starke/publication/11588102_Protection_of_Bacterial_Spares_in_Space_A_Contribution_to_the_Discussion_on_Panspermia/links/0912f50901fc18256f000000.pdf

 

 

[Grim Reaper 6]

17 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I gave you  the source which showed that  a colony of bacteria when exposed to space for the period of time needed to get from  earth to mars survived by forming a shell of dead individuals around the living mass of them 

If bacteria can survive like this, then it raises the possibility to a probability   (not a certainty )  There are degrees of probability  

It is now suspected (perhaps even known)  that, for a long period, Mars had large ocean of water  (about the size of the  arctic ocean ) and an atmosphere So if life could begin on earth,  it equally could have evolved on Mars  .

quote

Observations of the Red Planet indicate that rivers and oceans may have been prominent features in its early history. Billions of years ago, Mars was a warm and wet world that could have supported microbial life in some regions. But the planet is smaller than Earth, with less gravity and a thinner atmosphere. Over time, as liquid water evaporated, more and more of it escaped into space, allowing less to fall back to the surface of the planet.

https://www.space.com/17048-water-on-mars.html

 

quote

A primitive ocean on Mars held more water than Earth’s Arctic Ocean, according to NASA scientists who, using ground-based observatories, measured water signatures in the Red Planet’s atmosphere.

Scientists have been searching for answers to why this vast water supply left the surface. Details of the observations and computations appear in Thursday’s edition of Science magazine.

“Our study provides a solid estimate of how much water Mars once had, by determining how much water was lost to space,” said Geronimo Villanueva, a scientist at NASA’s Goddard Space Flight Center in Greenbelt, Maryland, and lead author of the new paper. “With this work, we can better understand the history of water on Mars.”

Perhaps about 4.3 billion years ago, Mars would have had enough water to cover its entire surface in a liquid layer about 450 feet (137 meters) deep. More likely, the water would have formed an ocean occupying almost half of Mars’ northern hemisphere, in some regions reaching depths greater than a mile (1.6 kilometers).

https://www.nasa.gov/press/2015/march/nasa-research-suggests-mars-once-had-more-water-than-earth-s-arctic-ocean

 

Radiation and cold didn't kill the bacteria sent into space, and so we know the y can survive long periods in space. 

It is already feared that  earth bacteria introduced onto the Martian surface over the long history of landers, explorers etc,  might have survived and be colonising mars. This could also  occur naturally.

 Not saying it did, just that it is more than just  possible 

Here s some additional information that may help you, at least I hope so.

Take care my friend

[astrobeing]

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

I gave you  the source which showed that  a colony of bacteria when exposed to space for the period of time needed to get from  earth to mars survived by forming a shell of dead individuals around the living mass of them

I didn't see any that showed bacteria could have survived the millions upon millions of years of radiation in space that it would have taken in all likelihood. The two articles I saw was that bacteria can survive a handful of years in low Earth orbit, you know, where Earth's magnetic field protects life from the extremely lethal radiation of the solar wind. A few years in low Earth orbit is nothing like traveling for millions of years in interplanetary orbit.

The other article showed that bacteria can survive millions of years in ice (Kay Bidle 2007) but sitting in relatively warm ice is not like traveling in deep space. You can't combine the two findings because they are from extremely different conditions.

And where did this life emerge on Mars and why Mars and not Earth? Hey, that's awesome that Mars just may have as much water as Earth's smallest ocean but there was still several hundred times more water here on Earth and we know that it had much more favorable conditions than Mars for life. Did I mention Earth's magnetic field? Well, Mars has a very weak magnetic field which is why the planet has been pounded with lethal radiation from the sun which would kill life as we know it.

If you believe that this series of miracles is what happened then there must be a great number of other amazing things you believe happened. 

14 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

If bacteria can survive like this, then it raises the possibility to a probability   (not a certainty )  There are degrees of probability 

Yes, an extremely low probability close to zero. But if you're a fan of movies like Invasion of the Body Snatchers then it might seem more likely.

[astrobeing]

15 hours ago, Abramelin said:

I will start:

https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2018ApJ...868L..12G/abstract

A completely theoretical paper which jumps to conclusions. For example: "While the exact survival lifetimes of bacteria is unknown, it is clear that bacteria can survive for at least millions of years (Bidle et al. 2007)." The bacteria that Kay Bidle found were protected in ice here on Earth. The conditions in solar space contain lethal radiation from the solar wind. He theorizes that maybe the bacteria could have been shielded by the rock itself because it doesn't hurt to add one more miracle to a series of miracles because it was completely protected in space (when it needed to be) and then unprotected here on Earth (when it needed to be).

And no one has yet explained why life would emerge on Mars instead of Earth!

[Mr Walker]

2 hours ago, astrobeing said:

I didn't see any that showed bacteria could have survived the millions upon millions of years of radiation in space that it would have taken in all likelihood. The two articles I saw was that bacteria can survive a handful of years in low Earth orbit, you know, where Earth's magnetic field protects life from the extremely lethal radiation of the solar wind. A few years in low Earth orbit is nothing like traveling for millions of years in interplanetary orbit.

The other article showed that bacteria can survive millions of years in ice (Kay Bidle 2007) but sitting in relatively warm ice is not like traveling in deep space. You can't combine the two findings because they are from extremely different conditions.

And where did this life emerge on Mars and why Mars and not Earth? Hey, that's awesome that Mars just may have as much water as Earth's smallest ocean but there was still several hundred times more water here on Earth and we know that it had much more favorable conditions than Mars for life. Did I mention Earth's magnetic field? Well, Mars has a very weak magnetic field which is why the planet has been pounded with lethal radiation from the sun which would kill life as we know it.

If you believe that this series of miracles is what happened then there must be a great number of other amazing things you believe happened. 

Yes, an extremely low probability close to zero. But if you're a fan of movies like Invasion of the Body Snatchers then it might seem more likely.

what " millions of years"  We were talking about bacteria travelling between  mars and earth 

after originating on one or the other 

There is scientific data suggesting tha t panspermia might occur galaxy wide  but its based on scientific modelling .and the finding tha t bacteria embedded in material such as an asteroid have MUCH higher survival rates than  free floating ones  

I appreciate that you dont want to believe, so you perceive data differently to me. I keep a more open mind because its such an interesting possibility 

Maybe i've misunderstood you.

Are you a creationist who doesn't think natural evolution of life is possible?  Or are you an evolutionist who has the hubris to believe tha t earth is somehow unique or special?

if life evolved on earth, then it can, and probably will, evolve on any planet with reasonably similar conditions 

Plus, as Carl Sagan pointed out, we should not assume that all life is "as we know it"

it may not even be carbon based.

The evolutionary process which produced the pattern of life we know on earth may well produce an entirely different pattern of life under different conditions 

  Or are you, perhaps,  a person who  can only accept  (and feel comfortable with)  the known and proven, and won't consider the possible 

Ps why use the word miracle? If something like the evolution of  life  happens, it is not a miracle. it is a random, chaotic roll of the dice, which produces a consequence through  a series of connected  chance events or conditions.

There is a linear progression over time which, when we look back at it, may cause us to believe it was all inevitable or preordained, but it never was.

We a re here by good luck, not good management   

Edited December 12, 2020 by Mr Walker

[astrobeing]

Just now, Mr Walker said:

what " millions of years"  We were talking about bacteria travelling between  mars and earth

So you believe, for some reason, that in our gigantic solar system a rock that just happened to contain radiation-resistant bacteria which evolved on a planet that we have not found any traces of life on, somehow took a direct flight to Earth instead of wondering around the solar system until being captured by Earth's puny gravitational field?

2 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I appreciate that you dont want to believe so you perceive data differently to me. I keep amore open mind because its such an interesting

These papers don't contain data as evidence. They contain numbers that were selected by the authors to barely bring the theory into the remote realm of possibility, similar to the Drake Equation.

4 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Are you a creationist who doesn't think natural evolution of life is possible?  Or are you an evolutionist who has the hubris to believe tha t earth is somehow unique or special?

Do you believe in angels, Mr. Walker? Because when someone describes a series of miracles like this I expect them to attribute them to the work of angels.

And why do believe Mars is the same as Earth?

6 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

if life evolved on earth, then it can, and probably will, evolve on any planet with reasonably similar conditions 

OK, you don't understand the process of abiogenesis so let me explain. We know life isn't caused by conditions alone. You cannot simply mix ingredients together and produce life. It is caused by a series of events which causes transitions from the simple ingredients of life to actual life. The paper that started this thread used Bayesian analysis to evaluate the likelihood of each event happening in the correct order and that's how they concluded the extreme improbability of it. Since you know how probabilities work then you know how a series of unlikely events produce a combination of events with astronomically low likelihood of ever happening again. Even in this vast universe things rarely happen the same way twice. In fact we have yet to even see it happen.

15 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Plus, as Carl Sagan pointed out, we should not assume that all life is "as we know it"

it may not even be carbon based.

And you don't know anything about organic chemistry. If you did, you would know that carbon is a vastly unique element that has properties that are absolutely essential to life. In our universe you cannot simply substitute one element for another and get the same result. In fact carbon is so unique that you could describe chemistry as "carbon chemistry" and "all other chemistry".

And you still ignore the gaping holes in the Mars panspermia theory.

1. Why did life appear on Mars but not on Earth?
2. How did life evolve into bacteria on a planet with no magnetic field thus bombarded with lethal solar radiation?
3. How and why did the complicated radiation-resistant bacteria that came from Mars devolve into the simpler forms of life we see today?

[Abramelin]

We are discussing with a troll

 

[astrobeing]

Just now, Abramelin said:

We are discussing with a troll

I'm sorry that you didn't understand the flaws in the Harvard paper that I pointed out.

Feel free to ignore me.