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Davros of Skaro

Did Jesus Exist Debate: Carrier VS MacDonald

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jmccr8
3 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Jay, I think Saru should are you a mod. 

Hi Sherapy

Not sure I am what Saru really needs but am willing to try out or do fill in as long as it's not rum Friday.:whistle:

jmccr8

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Sherapy
1 minute ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Sherapy

Not sure I am what Saru really needs but am willing to try out or do fill in as long as it's not rum Friday.:whistle:

jmccr8

You are mod material to me. I am not sure how one becomes one though.

Edited by Sherapy

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Will Do
25 minutes ago, Davros of Skaro said:

I know. No problem. 

I interacted with him to show my point of view to others. I knew nothing productive from him would come about. 

Only thing of interest to me from him is what's his personal experience that led him to believe the UB. But I know no straight answer will fruit from it.

 

I don't believe the UB. I just read it. Not too much anymore though. After almost 40 years I practically have it memorized by now lol.

No I mean it. And I'm pretty sure you'll misunderstand what I'm about to say. I don't believe a book. I believe GOD instead. Yes, there are books that say GOD IS WITHIN YOU. Many more books than just one. So I believe that. THAT GOD'S PRESENCE is within me. In every and all my life's EXPERIENCES, it's been made plain to me that yes, it's true, God is within me just like he's within everyone. And I'm nobody special that's for sure. So if he's there within, then I'm able to believe what he "says" to me DIRECTLY. Now do you understand Davros? 

A person can gain knowledge by reading books but truth must be experienced in order to know it.

Believing GOD DIRECTLY is an experience. Believing what a book says is not.

You wanted to know what my experience was didn't you?

 

 

Edited by Will Do

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Sherapy
1 hour ago, Will Do said:

 

It validates itself doesn't it?

I mean there's Plato. There's Aristotle. There's Socrates. There's a lot more...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_Greek_philosophers

 

But when talking about ancient philosophers, Philo is usually barely mentioned. If at all.

 

Yet, 'Philosophy' is obviously named after him.

Why?

 

 

Will, we don’t read wiki, we read the actual philosophers essays. Or take a courses thru CC. 
philosophy is profound fora reason. 

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Davros of Skaro
7 minutes ago, Will Do said:

 

I don't believe the UB. I just read it. Not too much anymore though. After almost 40 years I practically have it memorized by now lol.

No I mean it. And I'm pretty sure you'll misunderstand what I'm about to say. I don't believe a book. I believe GOD instead. Yes, there are books that say GOD IS WITHIN YOU. Many more books than just one. So I believe that. THAT GOD'S PRESENCE is within me. In every and all my life's EXPERIENCES, it's been made plain to me that yes, it's true, God is within me just like he's within everyone. And I'm nobody special that's for sure. So if he's there within, then I'm able to believe what he "says" to me DIRECTLY. Now do you understand Davros? 

A person can gain knowledge by reading books but truth must be experienced in order to know it.

Believing GOD DIRECTLY is an experience. Believing what a book says is not.

 

 

48ru3r.jpg

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jmccr8
6 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

You are mod material to me. I am not sure how one becomes one though.

Hi Sherapy

Thanks I appreciate your kind words. My experience of the last year of covid and American elections saw a loss of many members and a significant loss of activity in the forum not to mention the hateful animosity that has arisen in the forum that I love so dearly and decided to try to promote constructive dialogue or guidance to it as a means of keeping the forum alive and not just a memory. When I joined I saw such great potential to learn and have tried to absorb as much as I can and am thankful to have the opportunity to meet so many people from all over the world that I hope never ends.

jmccr8

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Will Do
4 minutes ago, Davros of Skaro said:

48ru3r.jpg

 

If you told me that Davros I would know you weren't being truthful because the only thing that's changed what I know to be real has come about because of what I've experienced. 

Not ever what I've read.

That's the test. "Are you experienced?"

If not then I'll suggest you start experiencing believing God directly instead of knowing what's written about him.

 

 

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Davros of Skaro
2 minutes ago, Will Do said:

If you told me that Davros I would know you weren't being truthful because the only thing that's changed what I know to be real has come about because of what I've experienced. 

Not ever what I've read.

That's the test. "Are you experienced?"

If not then I'll suggest you start experiencing believing God directly instead of knowing what's written about him.

large.gif

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Will Do

 

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one

 

 

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Sherapy
7 minutes ago, Davros of Skaro said:

large.gif

Subjectification of his internal reality, especially as he cannot consider that he might have made this up. That god could be a figment of his imagination. Imho there isn’t a right or wrong but there is fantasy and actuality. 

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy
2 minutes ago, Will Do said:

 

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one

 

 

That is happening now many more are coming together in unity and cooperation as opposed to divide and conquer. 

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Davros of Skaro
1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

That is happening now many more are coming together in unity and cooperation as opposed to divide and conquer. 

Reality for you.

giphy-downsized-large.gif

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Will Do
9 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Subjectification of his internal reality, especially as he cannot consider that he might have made this up. That god could be a figment of his imagination. Imho there isn’t a right or wrong but there is fantasy and actuality. 

 

Really? There isn't a right or wrong?

I guess you're right, there is fantasy.

 

 

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jmccr8
8 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

That is happening now many more are coming together in unity and cooperation as opposed to divide and conquer. 

Hi Sherapy

My observation is that it takes a divide to create a unity that divides so it is a cyclitic in nature so for me he only true identifiable unity is that we have is we are human with different perspectives of our environment.

jmccr8

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Will Do
4 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

we are human with different perspectives of our environment.

 

Provide a link :lol: 

 

 

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jmccr8
1 minute ago, Will Do said:

 

Provide a link :lol: 

 

 

Zelda Link GIF - Zelda Link Pot - Discover & Share GIFs | Zelda memes,  Zelda funny, Legend of zelda

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jmccr8
1 hour ago, Will Do said:

 

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one

 

 

jmccr8

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eight bits
7 hours ago, Will Do said:

But we have writings that recorded thousands died.

What's one more?

And let God sort it out? That's a very callous attitude.

We have writings that "record" how Peter shot Simon Magus out of the skies over Rome, to the amazement of Roman officials watching the contest from the ground. So what? (Well, now that we're asking, that's the same "record" that tells us that Peter was martyred. Thank God, then, we have such a reliable source for this crucial fact.)

What we lack are records that would establish there were as many as two thousand Christians at any time during the apostolic generation (= Peter's lifetime). How many Christians died in persecution from 30-330 CE? That number could have been some thousands, but most of that would be long after Peter's death (however it happened), because most Christians who ever lived during those three centuries lived long after Peter would have died + it is more-or-less during the last of those three centuries that saw the systematic ecumenical-scale persecutiions in the Empire. (After 330, it starts to make more sense to count how many people were martyred for their faith by Christians.)

 

6 hours ago, Sherapy said:

Jay, I think Saru should make you a mod.

It's not as much fun as it looks :)

 

 

 

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Will Do
3 hours ago, eight bits said:

And let God sort it out?

 

It does appear so doesn't it? It's his universe. But here's what's interesting to me.

From everything I've gathered in life, we as free will human beings have a choice in the matter.

We can either leave our lives for God to sort out when it's time for the purpose of mortality to manifest itself or we can take the matter in our own hands and conform our lives to His life NOW. Thereby sorting it out ourselves beforehand. 

 

 

Edited by Will Do
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Nuclear Wessel
9 hours ago, Will Do said:

 

If you told me that Davros I would know you weren't being truthful because the only thing that's changed what I know to be real has come about because of what I've experienced. 

Not ever what I've read.

That's the test. "Are you experienced?"

If not then I'll suggest you start experiencing believing God directly instead of knowing what's written about him.

Will,

Is it possible that what you have experienced may not accurately reflect what truly happened? Especially considering the malleability of the mind. 

It is prone to all sorts of bias and distortions, none of which we are safe from. 

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Will Do
1 hour ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

Will,

Is it possible that what you have experienced may not accurately reflect what truly happened? Especially considering the malleability of the mind. 

 

Yes absolutely. At first it was close to total doubt.

 

Quote

It is prone to all sorts of bias and distortions, none of which we are safe from. 

 

There is always room for doubt but in my experiences with enacting what I've perceived to be true, as time proves out, there is safety in how it continues to progress assuredly.

I hesitate to say that safety builds. I'd rather say that it grows. Which makes it easier to follow up one experience based on faith with another.

The arena where this assurance occurs is that place within, where I believe God directly and over time, it's where historicity is developed. A track record of results related to acts of faith.

 

 

Edited by Will Do

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Mr Walker
On 12/23/2020 at 10:24 PM, eight bits said:

I know. It's a joke and a good one. But it's funny in part because uncertainty really has been discussed here at UM both about Mr W having any dog, and also if so, how accurate are the stories Mr W tells about his dogs.

Why? There's nothing unusual about an adult having a companion dog, even a few companion dogs. It's inherently plausible that Mr W might have dogs. The hitch is the role the dogs play in fairy tales: they are his silent witnesses to things that maybe didn't happen, or didn't happen as reported because what's reported never really happens.

Plus, there's something unrealistic about the character of the dogs. Maybe it's Mr W, but given his highly trained prose style, special insight into all things psychological and his depth of empathy, that really can't be it. Somehow, the character of the dogs is like those "robot" dogs the Japanese seem so fond of, not like living beings with minds of their own. For example, they're not aware of themselves. Umm... anybody who's ever walked a real dog on a leash knows what that's a pile of.

I conclude that it is very possible that Mr W's dogs don't really exist, and if they do, I know nothing about them.

If that has a familiar ring to it, that's because it's more-or-less what Bertarnd Russell said about the historical Jesus (in his talk, later published as an essay, "Why I am not a Christian," searchable and available in many places online).

In the OP video, I note with approval that Dr Carrier has moved closer to his ideological ally Raphael Lataster and emphasized that there is reason to doubt the historicity of Jesus (actually restating the subtitle of one of his own books on the subject). This is a strong position compared with the guild's oft-professed certainty that Jesus was a historical person. Combined with Dr MacDonald's near agreement with Carrier about the poor state of the evidence for particular facts about Jesus, the guild should be on the ropes, and willing to settle for the Russell position.

One last thing: For Mr W's dogs we have eyewitness testimony, publsihed during the dogs' lifetimes, written, and written by somebody who isn't a fanboy of those dogs (as mentioned, the Walker doctrine is that the dogs lack minds of their own). Yet, we can still have doubt and still feel the lack of reliable factual information.

We have nothing like that for Jesus, but supposed experts will insist that there is no basis for doubt about Jesus, and happily list the facts of his life which we can know. That comes down to his baptism, crucifixion and having a few friends - anything more than that and these lists of what "we" know strangely disagree with one another.

This is baloney Will.

 

 

 

could you explain the bit i bolded?  

Does it refer just to me, or are you saying that   nothing that happens is ever reported accurately, by anyone 

In theory that  is true   but in practice its untrue, given that being 99%  accurate when recounting an experience   is more than good enough.

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Mr Walker
20 hours ago, eight bits said:

And let God sort it out? That's a very callous attitude.

We have writings that "record" how Peter shot Simon Magus out of the skies over Rome, to the amazement of Roman officials watching the contest from the ground. So what? (Well, now that we're asking, that's the same "record" that tells us that Peter was martyred. Thank God, then, we have such a reliable source for this crucial fact.)

What we lack are records that would establish there were as many as two thousand Christians at any time during the apostolic generation (= Peter's lifetime). How many Christians died in persecution from 30-330 CE? That number could have been some thousands, but most of that would be long after Peter's death (however it happened), because most Christians who ever lived during those three centuries lived long after Peter would have died + it is more-or-less during the last of those three centuries that saw the systematic ecumenical-scale persecutiions in the Empire. (After 330, it starts to make more sense to count how many people were martyred for their faith by Christians.)

 

It's not as much fun as it looks :)

 

 

 

Its not callous for those who BELIEVE that god will, with justice and mercy, sort it out, and that life here on earth is really nothing  compared  to eternal life on the new earth 

And if you dont believe, then its not callous either, because, for you,  death is inevitable and all there is.   God gives a promise of more life and a chance to live for ever That promise can be taken up by ANYONE and exists even for those who never hear of it    ie good people before christ  young children and those who never heard of him, are still saved by his sacrifice. You have to actively refuse salvation to lose it.   

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eight bits
2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

Does it refer just to me, or are you saying that   nothing that happens is ever reported accurately, by anyone 

What you bolded in the quote box:

or didn't happen as reported because what's reported never really happens.

referred to you in context. That is, the focus was on the dog(s) that may or may not really exist based on your reports that they exist, that you interact with them, that they witness various episodes in your life, etc.

As I think you yourself point out (IIRC), we, your readers, have only the texts you post to guide us in discerning the truth about things you report, like the existence of the dogs. Our situation relative to the dogs seems to me to be analogous to our predicament with Jesus. We have only some texts to go by.

As I've pointed out, the evidence you provide for the dogs is actually "better" in some ways than what we have for Jesus. Your reports are from an eyewitness perspective, not really anonymous, from a contemporary of the dogs, and you say not only that you have met the dogs face-to-face, but in passing you've told us about other people who've also met the dogs in person (e.g. your wife).

Whatever else we might infer from all that, we can confidently believe that you yourself know whether or not the dogs exist. In contrast, I have no idea whether Mark knew whether or not Jesus existed.

There is, by the way, such a thing as an accurate report, but that wasn't the issue being discussed in what you quoted.

Merry Christmas, Mr W.

 

ETA: On a matter arising. From time to time, you bristle at being described as a Christian apologist. My thanks, then, for a sterling example of why your reader would say that about you:

Quote

God gives a promise of more life and a chance to live for ever That promise can be taken up by ANYONE and exists even for those who never hear of it    ie good people before christ  young children and those who never heard of him, are still saved by his sacrifice. You have to actively refuse salvation to lose it.   

Talk about puttin' the Christ back in Christmas.

 

Edited by eight bits
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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, eight bits said:

What you bolded in the quote box:

or didn't happen as reported because what's reported never really happens.

referred to you in context. That is, the focus was on the dog(s) that may or may not really exist based on your reports that they exist, that you interact with them, that they witness various episodes in your life, etc.

As I think you yourself point out (IIRC), we, your readers, have only the texts you post to guide us in discerning the truth about things you report, like the existence of the dogs. Our situation relative to the dogs seems to me to be analogous to our predicament with Jesus. We have only some texts to go by.

As I've pointed out, the evidence you provide for the dogs is actually "better" in some ways than what we have for Jesus. Your reports are from an eyewitness perspective, not really anonymous, from a contemporary of the dogs, and you say not only that you have met the dogs face-to-face, but in passing you've told us about other people who've also met the dogs in person (e.g. your wife).

Whatever else we might infer from all that, we can confidently believe that you yourself know whether or not the dogs exist. In contrast, I have no idea whether Mark knew whether or not Jesus existed.

There is, by the way, such a thing as an accurate report, but that wasn't the issue being discussed in what you quoted.

Merry Christmas, Mr W.

 

ETA: On a matter arising. From time to time, you bristle at being described as a Christian apologist. My thanks, then, for a sterling example of why your reader would say that about you:

Talk about puttin' the Christ back in Christmas.

 

Ok I was only interested in what you were saying , and why 

If i have it right,  now, 

There can be such things as an accurate report  so my whole report of the doorway in the sky COULD have been accurate 

But you don't believe ( or cant be certain) that what  I reported was what actually happened 

You really only have "some "texts'  (and occasionally other media) to go by  on anything which happened before you were born and anything which you  dint observe during your life 

I often wonder if you  require the same  standards  of proof to accept ANYthing or whether you  require  a much higher standard/ level of proof that jesus (the man) actually existed. 

 

I dont bristle at being called  a christian apologist (although i think the term is pejorative and offensive as it is often used )  There is nothing to apologise for in any positive religious belief 

is like saying someone is an atheist apologist There is nothing to apologise about there,  either  and yes i know tha t classically that is not the  meaning of the word but it is how it is often used  

In the last quote of mine you refer to, I was just outlining one version of Christianity /christian theology,  which I prefer. i never really encountered people with deep religious commitments until, i went off to university    Thus when i encountered "god" and needed a  theological form to work with,  a gentle version of Christianity was the best fit  

I think people raised catholic often struggle with the guilt and unfairness of the god portrayed in tha t version  and the sense that humans are inherently evil 


I am not a christian except culturally,  but i definitely like the forms which say there is no hell, that  peole die, sleep, and are resurrected to either eternal life or just death.  

Ive always said here that i could be any religion (or none at all ) as long as the faith was a constructive one, and i was free to maintain my personal connection to, and relationship with, "god" 

Apart   from the positive benefits of a good belief,  as long as i was not prevented from that connection i could be any religion, or have none at all  

In my part of the world you are either christian, agnostic or atheist  

I guess, generally, my family, colleagues,  and friends are about a third each,  although my  local community is largely christian (80-90%)  from many denominations.   Christmas only has an hour or so to run here but all the best to you and yours. We had a very successful lunch,  with half a dozen family members.  Enough left overs for a few days meals  :) 

And still an entire unopened box of 48 Ferrero chocolates in 4 different colours  :) 

Edited by Mr Walker

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