We Live In Hell

[+Nuclear Wessel]

2 hours ago, Guyver said:

So, why would anyone make such a crazy thread?  We live in hell.  Right? It’s like daytime television.  But wait, just take a look at reality.  This is a place of suffering.  It appears we evolved from our ancestors, and are where we are now. Yet, there’s some freaky things that happen in this universe that defy that mentality.  

1.  a.) Life is suffering.
     b.) Everyone dies.

2.) No one knows what happens next, or if there is anything at all, except for maybe the few people who have experienced it.  That’s kinda hellish.

3.) Every morning you get up and you have your coffee and biscuits, or your tea and toast, or whatever it is you have, and you read the news.  You then realize that almost all of that news is bad news.....all the time...which makes you realize that reading the news is really depressing.  That hell-ish.

4.) Bad things happen to you and your loved ones all the time and you have no ability to control it.  That is also hellish.

I'm going to respond based on the assumption that by hell you are referring to a state of perpetual suffering, misery, torment, etc.

1.) a.) There is suffering within life, but life in and of itself is not a state of "suffering"; as in, it is not a perpetual state. For most people yes, there is suffering... but there is also non-suffering. We endure pain, misery, torment, etc... but it is not constant.
     b.) I don't necessarily see this as an effective argument in support of "we live in a state of perpetual misery, torment, etc."; death necessitates the cessation of suffering.

2.) Why is ignorance of post-death "existence" (if you will) kinda hellish?

3.) In this very post, though, you make note of things that allow for an individual to avoid states of suffering: food. water. knowledge. You also indicate that "almost" all of the news is bad news, thus not all of it is "bad" news. How is it possible for non-bad news to exist if we live in a state of perpetual misery, torment, etc.?

Also, it is possible to gain control of how reading negative news makes you feel.

In fact, you could potentially avoid a state of suffering by choosing to not engage the news at all.

4.) Is this universally true? Bad things have happened in my life, but plenty of good also.

At this point I'm not convinced that we live in hell, as per the assumption I made about the definition of the term.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Nuclear Wessel

[psyche101]

 

[jethrofloyd]

Well......we are maybe just on the highway to hell!

 

[Grim Reaper 6]

34 minutes ago, psyche101 said:

 

That is halarious man, I will have to watch that when it come out my way, but it can't be real I am a Buddhist and we never die. We are just reborn until we prove we are unable to progress to enlightenment and then we are reborn as a animal and we get eaten by a larger animal and them we end up as a smelly pile in someones  yard!! and that really sucks becuase rebirth from a pile of poop is no longer possible, the end!,

That is the hell a Buddhist can possible end up in and nothing is worst than that!

Take Care my friend thanks for sharing.

[Grim Reaper 6]

9 minutes ago, jethrofloyd said:

Well......we are maybe just on the highway to hell!

 

Now, I can relate to that, I spent some time on that highway back in the 1970s, but .I was reborn as a Soldier, I went to bed drunk and woke up in basic training a with a DIs boot kicking me in the butt, what a way to sober up!

take Care my friend.

[SHaYap]

2 hours ago, Guyver said:

 Trying to live is part of life.

To quote Yoda, "do or not do, there is no try... "

Life, you live, trying to live means you're not really living, and not really dying... 

~

2 hours ago, Guyver said:

Well, that just makes it worse.  I offer this as a support point to my hypothesis.

The hypothesis is not yours, or you... 

You can't support something that's not there, for better or worse... 

~

 

[+Hammerclaw]

We live in a perfectly natural universe in a perfectly natural planetary biome and all it's organisms, including ourselves, evolved here in a perfectly natural way. If there is no God, no Creator, then this is just how it is. If there is a Creator, then this is how it's suppose to be. Either way, deal with it.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

4 hours ago, Guyver said:

So, that thread title may seem misleading.  I’m not saying I have proof that we live in hell. I offer it as a hypothesis.

I’m sure California isn’t that bad

[eight bits]

@Guyver

Suffering is a good topic; we can all relate. It was a pleasure to read the Buddhist perspectives, too.

Suppose your premise is granted. We live in Hell.

What are the top three things we're supposed to do differently now that we have this information, that we wouldn't do without it?

 

[+Liquid Gardens]

8 hours ago, Guyver said:

1.  Life is suffering.

If life is suffering because it includes suffering, why doesn't 'life is pleasure' also work since it also contains pleasure?

[+Sherapy]

4 hours ago, eight bits said:

@Guyver

Suffering is a good topic; we can all relate. It was a pleasure to read the Buddhist perspectives, too.

Suppose your premise is granted. We live in Hell.

What are the top three things we're supposed to do differently now that we have this information, that we wouldn't do without it?

 

Buddhism, Zen, and Mindfulness suggests nonresistance, non-attachment, and non-judgment. 
 

Just to be clear, I am not preaching or professing some kind of expertise. 
 

For ex: Recently, my employer was hospitalized during the Covid pandemic, we literally had no choice as she had a serious medical condition. I had to be the one to go with her as her mom her primary Caregiver at 83 is in the high risk group for getting Covid. When we got to the hospital admittance there was one small entrance in and out and people were coming in and out by droves. It was truly horrifying, the amount of people  and the tight space.  We were informed that I could not be there or stay with her due to Covid in spite of the fact Dr. Cee Cee is a quadriplegic. Two hospitalists assured me that they would stay with her till she got a room, It would be 8 hours I was told later, I made sure she had on her mask, and left with tears in my eyes. None the less the anxiety I had over the next week was awful and it would grow as the days passed as I was sure I left her to be murdered by Covid, ( she is high risk too) her mom was at her house falling apart understandably, it was the first time she was not able to go with her daughter since her accident 30 years ago. I tried all kinds of systemic relief, the typical, distraction, talking myself out of it, trying to ignore the anxiety, yoga, meditation, watching funny things, grounding at one point in desperation I set up an e visit, my Dr. prescribed me anxiety meds. etc.etc.
 

Nothing was working, not even the meds. it was only getting worse, and I am no fun to live with personally or otherwise when I am an anxious mess.  I finally just  gave up and told myself that I would have to live with the horrifying anxiety, and this is when I noticed it started to dissipate and fizzled out, it did still come and go and I noticed it would get worse when I judged myself as I was  catastrophizing the situation. At one point, I found myself deciding to be merciful on myself, ( non judgement) reminding myself we literally had no choice but to get her to the hospital. I decided it was valid to be concerned and again I noticed the anxiety dissipated. 
 

In other words, nothing else worked to get rid of the non stop anxiety except to accept it, not resist it and not judge myself for it.  It wasn’t a 1,2,3 magic I overcame my anxiety, for ever and ever, but it certainly helped and it didn’t seem to last  as long, it came and went and got easier it had also been affecting my mood, and sleep. The feedback I got from Dr. Cee Cee after the fact was practice these things until they become natural.

Edited December 29, 2020 by Sherapy

[+Desertrat56]

9 hours ago, Guyver said:

So, that thread title may seem misleading.  I’m not saying I have proof that we live in hell. I offer it as a hypothesis.

When I was a teenager the minister at our church said that he believed that anyone who deserved to go to hell was already living it and when they died they would cease to exist, but people who deserved to go to heaven would live in heaven after they died.  So, you can see, this is a kinder but just as confusing belief that added to my cognitive dissonance concerning religion.  He never had a good answer to how we could be sure that we deserve to go to heaven.

I also read a book that everyone on earth is here to be punished and earth is  a prison planet that the aliens set up for bad people.   I can't remember which "new age guru" of the 50's wrote that one, but she had competition because at the same time another woman wrote a book that we are privileged and special, and the angels of god look after us, we just think they are aliens.

There are so many theories and none of them make sense,  I prefer to believe there is no heaven and no hell, except what we make up in our own minds.  

[+Desertrat56]

9 hours ago, Guyver said:

So, what would hell be like?  Well, before anyone wants to run “HotelCalifornia” let me just say.  Hell couldnt be the light me on fire forever version the Bible teaches because a loving God wouldnt do that, so that’s out.

But, a skillful practitioner, could mix in just enough pleasure to get you hooked, then deliver the pain.

Support point.

That's how the story goes.  The "devil" is a charming fellow who offers you something and then hooks you in to what ever and arranges that you can never walk away,  

Lots of people experience something like that, drug addicts, alcoholics, gamers (addicts), I guess any addict of what ever,  They all live in hell because they let the addiction rule their life.  I have known addicts that quit what ever, but they have to replace it with something else in order to be able to function (like religion, that is a popular addiction replacement)

And there are a lot of organizations that take advantage of the addicts with the offer of some form of "salvation from their addiction", like scientology, lots of cultish churches, psychiatrists, etc.

But is it really designed to be hell on earth or did we do that to ourselves with no help from any deity or demon?

 

[+Desertrat56]

9 hours ago, Guyver said:

I am entertaining the idea that the Simulation Hypothesis as well as the Holographic Universe idea as well as personal observation and study lead to the possible conclusion that we were born to suffer a penalty, or the random universe just really made it seem that way.

I have never seen randomness in relation to the universe.  I you like numbers you can find patterns everywhere in everything, no randomness exists except in the human mind.

 

[+Desertrat56]

8 hours ago, Guyver said:

Anyway, we live in Hell support point number three.

Every morning you get up and you have your coffee and biscuits, or your tea and toast, or whatever it is you have, and you read the news.  You then realize that almost all of that news is bad news.....all the time...which makes you realize that reading the news is really depressing.  That hell-ish.

So don't read the news.  It is purposely set up that way.  Fearful and depressed people are easier to manipulate.  (I know, I say that a lot, but no one seems to get it)

[+Desertrat56]

6 hours ago, Manwon Lender said:

That is halarious man, I will have to watch that when it come out my way, but it can't be real I am a Buddhist and we never die. We are just reborn until we prove we are unable to progress to enlightenment and then we are reborn as a animal and we get eaten by a larger animal and them we end up as a smelly pile in someones  yard!! and that really sucks becuase rebirth from a pile of poop is no longer possible, the end!,

That is the hell a Buddhist can possible end up in and nothing is worst than that!

Take Care my friend thanks for sharing.

It is a funny show.  I have watched 3 seasons, waiting for the next to show up on Netflix,

[+Desertrat56]

5 hours ago, President Wearer of Hats said:

I’m sure California isn’t that bad

You obviously haven't been there.  The only places worse are on the east coast of the U.S.    At least there is sunshine in California.  

[Will Due]

 

Yes we live in hell. And it exists that way for a very rare opportunity to help each other pull it all together and make heaven out of it.

In my opinion, that's its great purpose.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Will Do

[+Sherapy]

52 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

That's how the story goes.  The "devil" is a charming fellow who offers you something and then hooks you in to what ever and arranges that you can never walk away,  

Lots of people experience something like that, drug addicts, alcoholics, gamers (addicts), I guess any addict of what ever,  They all live in hell because they let the addiction rule their life.  I have known addicts that quit what ever, but they have to replace it with something else in order to be able to function (like religion, that is a popular addiction replacement)

And there are a lot of organizations that take advantage of the addicts with the offer of some form of "salvation from their addiction", like scientology, lots of cultish churches, psychiatrists, etc.

But is it really designed to be hell on earth or did we do that to ourselves with no help from any deity or demon?

 

For me, In buddhism, life is suffering is just a nice way of saying life is gonna suck balls at times like it or not. One can make it worse or find ways to “lighten up”the load. This doesn’t mean one has to follow someone else’s plan, but some things in practice work better than others, depends on the individual.  I say try them out and go from there the final decision is what works for me, not what so and so says, Some folks do have great suggestions in practice. That is key for me, I try it first, then decide. 

For me, one way is minimize choosing negativity, get out my head, especially look for what I have  a choice in, there really isn’t a good reason to over read or over watch the news constantly, or be living in my head all the time, I keep things simple and minimal. I try and use great care in adopting any kind of dogma as a life plan. I focus on being flexible and open to change.  A lot of attachment for me comes from to much dogma, when I scare easily or become obsessive and need to have agreement or validation it is about me,  quite literally I am in an obsessive state of micromanaging my thoughts basically a red alert I have been seduced by my own bs,, this is more than hell it is a nitemare IMHE. My two cents for myself is it is time to clean house good and bad are relative it depends on the situation what will be useful, at times it might be being a beeoch or getting p***ed at times it might not. Life is hard enough at times I try to work at not making it worse. Yet, I am human and I have to remind myself to have compassion and allow room from mistakes. 
 

And I never believe anyone that says they are enlightened or know god, for me this is a charlatan. They will need to earn my trust first. If they can’t be bothered neither can I. I will not sit at anyone’s feet, or let them decide who I am but I will be open to trying things out based on ones example. 
 

Just my two cents, not gospel, open to revision and feedback. 
 

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Sherapy

[+Desertrat56]

4 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

For me, In buddhism, life is suffering is just a nice way of saying life is gonna suck balls at times like it or not. One can make it worse or find ways to “lighten up”the load. This doesn’t mean one has to follow someone else’s plan, but some things in practice work better than others, depends on the individual.  I say try them out and go from there the final decision is what works for me, not what so and so says, Some folks do have great suggestions too. 

For me, one way is minimize choosing negativity, get out my head, especially look for what I have  a choice in, there really isn’t a good reason to over read or over watch the news constantly, or be living in my head all the time, I keep things simple and minimal. I try and use great care in adopting any kind of dogma as a life plan. I focus on being flexible and open to change.  A lot of attachment for me comes from to much dogma, when I scare easily or become obsessive and need to have agreement or validation it is about me,  quite literally I am in an obsessive state of micromanaging my thoughts basically a red alert I have been seduced by my own bs,, this is more than hell it is a nitemare IMHE. My two cents for myself is it is time to clean house good and bad are relative it depends on the situation what will be useful, at times it might be being a beeoch or getting p***ed at times it might not. Life is hard enough at times I try to work on making it worse. Yet, I am human and I have to remind myself to have compassion and allow room from mistakes. 
 

And I never believe anyone that says they are enlightened or know god, for me this is a charlatan. They will need to earn my trust first. If they can’t be bothered neither can I. 
 

Just my two cents, not gospel, open to revision and feedback. 
 

 

Very similar to how I think about it.  I have read some buddhist writings, my favorite are the Zen coans and Lao Tzu.  It makes more sense than anything else.

[+Sherapy]

15 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Very similar to how I think about it.  I have read some buddhist writings, my favorite are the Zen coans and Lao Tzu.  It makes more sense than anything else.

Indeed, it is simple basic common sense for me, meaning it works for me to be simple and truthful, especially about my take aways. 
 

For me “overselling” is a red flag it signals I might be over invested and need to pull back and see what is going on with me, 

 

Or self realization just a fancy way of saying knowing yourself really really good flaws and all and an ability ( skill) to nab things before they become a problem for myself and others. 

It is a lot of work too, it might be simple, but it isn’t easy, 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Sherapy

[SHaYap]

Funny story... 

I once was propositioned to know God, they can show me the way, I asked why? 

So you will get to heaven after you die, they said... 

But I'm already in heaven, I replied... 

What makes you so sure, they smirked... 

I simply said, I'm looking at you suffering there in hell... 

~

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by third_eye
Grammar potholes

[eight bits]

53 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I am not preaching

Don't worry about that; nobody sensible thinks otherwise.

Non-resistance as an acute anxiety management tool reminds me of the "Great Central Philippine Headache Cure" (searchable, include the quotation marks) for mitigation of acute physical pain. The geographical name is accidental - just a reference to where a certain author first encountered the practice while researching a book (Powers of Mind by 'Adam Smith'). Francis Mercury van Helmont did something similar for himself and patient-patroness Anne (Finch) Conway in 17th Century Britain and the Continent.

It's not really surprising, I suppose, that physical pain and physically manifesting anxiety might respond to similar 'psychological' management.

Anyway, a very interesting post.

 

[+Sherapy]

1 minute ago, third_eye said:

Funny story... 

I once was propositioned to know God, they can show me the way, I asked why? 

So you will get to heaven after you die, they said... 

But I'm already in heaven, I replied... 

What makes you so sure, they smirked... 

I simply said, I'm looking at you there suffering in hell... 

~

 

Well said. It is a fine line too. 
 

Those that suffer swear to god they are not. 
 

I say thank goodness for feedback, stories and quotes. 

[+Sherapy]

47 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Don't worry about that; nobody sensible thinks otherwise.

Non-resistance as an acute anxiety management tool reminds me of the "Great Central Philippine Headache Cure" (searchable, include the quotation marks) for mitigation of acute physical pain. The geographical name is accidental - just a reference to where a certain author first encountered the practice while researching a book (Powers of Mind by 'Adam Smith'). Francis Mercury van Helmont did something similar for himself and patient-patroness Anne (Finch) Conway in 17th Century Britain and the Continent.

It's not really surprising, I suppose, that physical pain and physically manifesting anxiety might respond to similar 'psychological' management.

Anyway, a very interesting post.

 

Aww, great add to. I will Google. 

I am taking advanced Psychoanalysis courses these days and I see in Freud, Hartman, and Feinchel  etc  how there actually are psychological ways to manage that are incredibly in sync with Buddhism, Zen, Mindfulness etc. 

I had no idea how spot on Jung and Freud were in gifting humanity with pointing us in a  direction to understand some basic things about our humanness. Dreams and defense mechanisms are wonderful tools worth looking into. IMHO

An aside, for example: Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (a case in point) (basically Neuroplasticity) is a wonderful property of the brain good for practicing mental flexibility,non attachment, and non resistance and letting go. 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2020 by Sherapy