Is the vaccine a true miracle?

[ian hacktorp]

9 minutes ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

Sources, please.

Note: DailyMail, Independent, ZeroHedge, BuzzFeed, etc. are not reliable sources.

Cite scientific studies.

To quote Joe Biden, you sound like a one-horse pony.

[ian hacktorp]

Uh, oh...more bad news for the vaccine.  Apparently it causes erectile dysfunction...in turn causing, uh, sagging demand:

Very reassuring: India’s drug regulator declares Covid jabs ‘110% safe’ in overzealous attempt to dispel impotency rumors

Quote

To make matters worse, the head of India’s Samajwadi (Socialist) Party, Ashutosh Sinha, told local media that he was concerned that the vaccines “might contain something which can cause harm.” He put forward the theory that the jab could be used to “kill/decrease the population” or cause “impotency.” 

https://www.rt.com/news/511415-india-vaccine-110-percent-safe-impotency/

I don't know how the vaccine roll-out could get any worse...but it probably will.

*snip*

Edited January 5, 2021 by Saru
Removed reference to unproven, alternative medication

[Golden Duck]

On 1/4/2021 at 6:13 AM, ian hacktorp said:

Uh, oh...more bad news for the vaccine.  Apparently it causes erectile dysfunction...in turn causing, uh, sagging demand:

Very reassuring: India’s drug regulator declares Covid jabs ‘110% safe’ in overzealous attempt to dispel impotency rumors

https://www.rt.com/news/511415-india-vaccine-110-percent-safe-impotency/

I don't know how the vaccine roll-out could get any worse...but it probably will.

Are you listening to advice from socialists reported in Russia Today?

[Sakari]

On 12/30/2020 at 8:17 PM, qxcontinuum said:

I am a vaccine skeptic, well for the time being that is!

Recently I was involved in a conversation with someone who seem to have been very well documented about the moderna and pfizer vaccine, how they work and the reaction they trigger. HE have told me a bunch of things I would have never expected to hear. Essentially, the story goes that these vaccines were already developed as top of the line advanced treatment against cancer, AIDS and other illines that can be very challenging to the human body. This person is swearing that by taking either one of them it can essentially trigger a strong auto immune response of the body to a such higher level that can reject serious diseases in the future including cancer. He was saying that the two medical companies have not had time to develop a branch of the vaccine just for Coronavirus but they did use the whole range broad-spectrum the vaccine wad meant for initially. Just read today got some patients have developed a reaction after taking the vaccine triggered by Dental fillings. I was also reading on this photo room that the famous Bulgarian  psychic Vanga predicted a cure against cancer in 2021. Could there be a true in all of this?

I received over 39 infusions of Keytruda every 3 weeks for 2 years. Stage 4 Melanoma. "Someone" is full of crap that you spoke with.

[Sakari]

On 1/1/2021 at 10:57 PM, qxcontinuum said:

What i am trying to establish is the opposite. According to this friend if mine, there is a positive (mostly) chain reaction triggered by the vaccine at cellular and immune level which can regress other desiseas including cancer. He said the vaccine was originally developed years ago by a not named company for military personal, making them resistant to a broad spectrum of illnesses. Both Pfizer and Moderna have taken this vaccine, broke it apart attempting to channel its efficiency on covid only. However in the end unsuccessfully, they've released it with the same composition and structure... (not surprising since both are very similar in chemical components).

This is what I've been told. The friend is working in some hi end medical facility, preping material for security shipping in Canada and USA.

Again. Coming from someone (Me) that is surviving stage 4 Melanoma (google the odds of that), your friend is full of crap.

[ian hacktorp]

This is bad.  Taking the failed vaccine is increasingly being seen as a death sentence:

Another Person Dies Hours After Taking COVID Vaccine

Published 4 days ago on 31 December, 2020Steve Watson

Quote

An elderly man in Switzerland has reportedly died after taking the COVID-19 vaccine, following the death of another person who took the shot in Israel.

According to Reuters, the man lived in a nursing home in Lucerne Switzerland, and was one of the first people in the country to take the Pfizer jab.

“We are aware of the case,” an official said, noting that the case has been referred to Swiss drugs regulator Swissmedic.

The report states that the man was administered the vaccine on Christmas eve, and soon complained of urethral and abdominal pain, before his blood pressure tanked and his pulse spiked.

He died on Monday.

https://summit.news/2020/12/31/another-person-dies-hours-after-taking-covid-vaccine/

It is no wonder why people are avoiding the (failed) vaccine like it's the plague...that's pretty much what it is.

[Tatetopa]

[ian hacktorp]

23 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

I see you've taken the vaccine...

[Mr.United_Nations]

1 hour ago, ian hacktorp said:

This is bad.  Taking the failed vaccine is increasingly being seen as a death sentence:

Another Person Dies Hours After Taking COVID Vaccine

Published 4 days ago on 31 December, 2020Steve Watson

https://summit.news/2020/12/31/another-person-dies-hours-after-taking-covid-vaccine/

It is no wonder why people are avoiding the (failed) vaccine like it's the plague...that's pretty much what it is.

Do you have data?

[Tatetopa]

1 hour ago, ian hacktorp said:

I see you've taken the vaccine...

Not yet Ian.  I am not high enough in the pecker order to get the vaccine yet.

[+Desertrat56]

On 12/30/2020 at 8:17 PM, qxcontinuum said:

I am a vaccine skeptic, well for the time being that is!

Recently I was involved in a conversation with someone who seem to have been very well documented about the moderna and pfizer vaccine, how they work and the reaction they trigger. HE have told me a bunch of things I would have never expected to hear. Essentially, the story goes that these vaccines were already developed as top of the line advanced treatment against cancer, AIDS and other illines that can be very challenging to the human body. This person is swearing that by taking either one of them it can essentially trigger a strong auto immune response of the body to a such higher level that can reject serious diseases in the future including cancer. He was saying that the two medical companies have not had time to develop a branch of the vaccine just for Coronavirus but they did use the whole range broad-spectrum the vaccine wad meant for initially. Just read today got some patients have developed a reaction after taking the vaccine triggered by Dental fillings. I was also reading on this photo room that the famous Bulgarian  psychic Vanga predicted a cure against cancer in 2021. Could there be a true in all of this?

No.  That is a garbled version of how those vaccines were created.   The method used (RNA) for the two vaccines you mention used the same methods that a lot of cancer drugs are now using (like Keytruda as an example), but anything else your friend said about the vaccines is incorrect.   They are not made from cancer drugs, they are made using the same method as SOME newer cancer drugs.   Taking either of these vaccines will not trigger any strong auto immune response except, EXCEPT in rare cases where a person getting the vaccine happens to be allergic to something in the vaccine.    You all need to go take some biology and other science classes instead of spreading silliness like your friend is selling you.

[+Desertrat56]

On 1/1/2021 at 12:03 AM, qxcontinuum said:

Thanks everyone for responding. This is all info I was also able to read from what I gathered online. However correct me if I'm wrong but ebola, saars, Mers etc. can be cured in similar ways. Besides since aids kills the body by storing its defense mechanism can the vaccine technically reverse that? 

Why is the Moderna vaccine trigering such allergic reactions including dental swelling from older fillings? It is obviously that in these cases the auto immune system was sort of restarted ?

Would you please sign up for a biology class then when you understand that, take one on how virus's and vaccines work.   

[Tom1200]

4 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

No.  That is a garbled version of how those vaccines were created.   ...    You all need to go take some biology and other science classes instead of spreading silliness like your friend is selling you.

Are you sure about this?  'Cos I it heard from a bloke on the internet, who heard from his friend, who says he knows how stuff works.  Isn't that proof enough for you?

Clearly someone somewhere has invented a vaccine that cures cancer, AIDS and nasal hair.  It also promotes midichlorians and thetans inside us, eventually making us immortal and able to solve sudoku puzzles.  And now they're keeping it from us?  Why?  Obviously they're scared of making us all superhumans in case we all start flying in the same direction and affect the rotation of the planet.  'Cos that's what'll happen - I saw it on tv.

[+Desertrat56]

4 minutes ago, Tom1200 said:

Are you sure about this?  'Cos I it heard from a bloke on the internet, who heard from his friend, who says he knows how stuff works.  Isn't that proof enough for you?

Clearly someone somewhere has invented a vaccine that cures cancer, AIDS and nasal hair.  It also promotes midichlorians and thetans inside us, eventually making us immortal and able to solve sudoku puzzles.  And now they're keeping it from us?  Why?  Obviously they're scared of making us all superhumans in case we all start flying in the same direction and affect the rotation of the planet.  'Cos that's what'll happen - I saw it on tv.

@qxcontinuum  If you had some education in biology you would not have to "hear it from a bloke who read it off the internets"  or what ever, you could read actual research and come to your own conclusions.  Wouldn't you rather have the power to understand it yourself rather than be dependent on some bloke who says he knows a bloke who knows something?   

Edited January 4, 2021 by Desertrat56

[ian hacktorp]

1 hour ago, Tatetopa said:

NEver know do you?

Well, I know that I haven't had either one.  And I've got proof.

[stereologist]

9 hours ago, ian hacktorp said:

This is bad.  Taking the failed vaccine is increasingly being seen as a death sentence:

Another Person Dies Hours After Taking COVID Vaccine

Published 4 days ago on 31 December, 2020Steve Watson

https://summit.news/2020/12/31/another-person-dies-hours-after-taking-covid-vaccine/

It is no wonder why people are avoiding the (failed) vaccine like it's the plague...that's pretty much what it is.

That's a very successful vaccine since COVID-19 kills over 1% of those infected.

Turns out that story though is just more garbage from a filth outlet.

If we avoid the trash of commie news like rt or the garbage of this deceitful filth outlet we can get a better understanding of the issues.

https://www.ndtv.com/world-news/highly-unlikely-91-year-olds-death-due-to-vaccine-switzerland-2345797

Quote

"Highly Unlikely" 91-Year-Old's Death Due To Vaccine: Switzerland

A Swissmedic spokesman said that the timing of the death in a Lucerne nursing home, just five days after receiving the vaccine, "was a coincidence".

Thankfully we can rely on the medical experts and not commie news outlets and right wing trash sites

https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/summit-news/

What do you they say about the summit?

Quote

Overall, we rate Summit News Questionable based on Extreme Right-wing bias, promotion of conspiracies, misleading and unproven stories, and a complete lack of transparency.

 

[stereologist]

8 hours ago, ian hacktorp said:

- post removed -

The data is clear. COVID-19 has killed over a million people in 2020 and so far no deaths from the vaccine.

There are fools posting laughable lies about the vaccine, but these people are probably failures in life and want to drag others down in the miasma that has consumed them.

In the mean time the vaccines in development and in use will continue to save lives.

*snip*

Edited January 5, 2021 by Saru
Removed reference to deleted comment

[stereologist]

There are now 1,823,357 dead in the world from COVID-19 and zero from the vaccines that are saving lives.

Thousands and thousands of people were injured and killed by taking HCQ this last year. They were killed by the VD spewed by those using filth outlets like those we've seen posted in this thread such as summit, and rt.

 

 

[+Nuclear Wessel]

3 hours ago, stereologist said:

There are now 1,823,357 dead in the world from COVID-19 and zero from the vaccines that are saving lives.

Thousands and thousands of people were injured and killed by taking HCQ this last year. They were killed by the VD spewed by those using filth outlets like those we've seen posted in this thread such as summit, and rt.

 

 

At this point it's best just to report the posts filled with conspiracy theory nonsense and other uninformed garbage.

[Mr.United_Nations]

8 hours ago, ian hacktorp said:

- post removed -

I'll ask again, wheres your data

[Saru]

4 hours ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

At this point it's best just to report the posts filled with conspiracy theory nonsense and other uninformed garbage.

Please do - as I've said before, the claim that the pandemic is 'fake' is so ridiculous that I doubt anyone claiming such actually believes it.

[Tom1200]

7 hours ago, stereologist said:

There are now 1,823,357 dead in the world from COVID-19 and zero from the vaccines that are saving lives.

I think there is considerable agreement across all sides of the debate that this very precise figure much be treated with caution.

• It may be too high - in many countries the total includes all deaths "with XX days of a positive Covid test" (here in UK it's 28 days).  Obviously some of these deaths are not due to Covid.
• It may be too low - there is understandable suspicion about the very low reported rates in certain regions (not least China, with 3 deaths per million population, compared to the global average of 239).

Either way it is unscientific to attribute so precise a value to a quantity with huge intrinsic uncertainty.

That aside, are there grounds for questioning the establishment's response to this infection?  I can only speak for the UK when I say I hear and see daily the misery caused by closures, lockdowns, isolation and economic uncertainty.  I fully accept that the government has to balance the needs of the country and the needs of the people, and it's an unprecedented situation in modern times.  But IMO we have a Catch-22 situation:

• Few politicians understand much science or statistics.  Fewer still understand medicine or virology.
• Politicians rely on scientific advice to make crucial decisions.  There are many scientists, often advocating polar positions on responses and treatments.
• Governments must therefore select the scientists whose advice they choose to follow.
• At this point governments are no longer follow the science - they are following some science.

And when those selected scientists get it wrong, as with their hopelessly inept modelling?  Will politicians admit to getting it wrong, to following the wrong advice, to making the wrong decisions?  Not in the UK, that's for certain.

I've said nothing about the vaccines currently being rolled out.  I have no concerns about the vaccines - they will save hundreds of thousands of lives.  But for every person who dies 'of Covid' there are 30 who die of something else.  At most Covid will cause 3% of deaths this year, compared to heart disease (16%), stroke (10%) and lung diseases (10%). 

We didn't shut down before and there's been no obvious reason to lock us down this past year.  I can see how people are suspicious of what we're told by selected scientists, and why they are inclined to listen to alternative voices, when the established advice has caused so much damage to the economy, society and particularly our children.

[+Nuclear Wessel]

Quote

At most Covid will cause 3% of deaths this year, compared to heart disease (16%), stroke (10%) and lung diseases (10%). 

 

Quote

We didn't shut down before and there's been no obvious reason to lock us down this past year. 

It is not necessarily about the deaths: we still don't fully understand the long-term effects of this virus/disease as it has only been circulating for about a year. There has been evidence that this virus damages (potentially permanently) the lungs, the heart, and other parts of the body; long-term studies will have to be done to determine the full extent of this virus/disease's impact(s). In saying that, 3% of deaths is a lot of deaths; and these deaths are being caused by a disease from a highly contagious virus, which has mutated and gotten even more contagious. 

I also disagree with your latter statement: "there's been no 'obvious' reason'". To me, the reason has been obvious all along: to slow the rate of infection long enough to get a vaccine in circulation, so we can start getting our lives back to normal.

[toast]

14 minutes ago, Tom1200 said:

Either way it is unscientific to attribute so precise a value to a quantity with huge intrinsic uncertainty.

(...)

 But for every person who dies 'of Covid' there are 30 who die of something else.  At most Covid will cause 3% of deaths this year, compared to heart disease (16%), stroke (10%) and lung diseases (10%).

The stupid death number comparsion is a well known figure and I`m still wondering whats the reason for other than to say C19 isnt that worse, and its an often used argument by the C19 deniers community. The known figures for strokes etc. are relative the same over the years but C19 is a.) an additional threat and b.) a highly infectious disease with an expotentional growth rate. Just for info: within 12 month, C19 made it from zero to >86M cases and >1.8M deaths and looking at the current groth rates ist quite clear that it isnt under controll, not even near to it.

Quote

We didn't shut down before and there's been no obvious reason to lock us down this past year.  I can see how people are suspicious of what we're told by selected scientists, and why they are inclined to listen to alternative voices, when the established advice has caused so much damage to the economy, society and particularly our children

There is no choice between economy and lock down, thats a rotten dream.

[Tom1200]

1 hour ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

It is not necessarily about the deaths: we still don't fully understand the long-term effects of this virus/disease as it has only been circulating for about a year. There has been evidence that this virus damages (potentially permanently) the lungs, the heart, and other parts of the body; long-term studies will have to be done to determine the full extent of this virus/disease's impact(s). In saying that, 3% of deaths is a lot of deaths; and these deaths are being caused by a disease from a highly contagious virus, which has mutated and gotten even more contagious. 

I also disagree with your latter statement: "there's been no 'obvious' reason'". To me, the reason has been obvious all along: to slow the rate of infection long enough to get a vaccine in circulation, so we can start getting our lives back to normal.

 

1 hour ago, toast said:

The stupid death number comparsion is a well known figure and I`m still wondering whats the reason for other than to say C19 isnt that worse, and its an often used argument by the C19 deniers community. The known figures for strokes etc. are relative the same over the years but C19 is a.) an additional threat and b.) a highly infectious disease with an expotentional growth rate. Just for info: within 12 month, C19 made it from zero to >86M cases and >1.8M deaths and looking at the current groth rates ist quite clear that it isnt under controll, not even near to it.

There is no choice between economy and lock down, thats a rotten dream.

Could I respond to both of you together?  

It is not necessarily about the deaths: we still don't fully understand the long-term effects of this virus

I concede this point, but I was responding to stereologist's point about deaths from Covid.  Hitherto of the 86 215 628 reported cases 1 863 585 have ended in death.  That's 2.16%, suggesting that 97.84% of recorded infections haven't resulted in death.  For every seriously infected person who dies of Covid 45.3 recover.  If we accept the headline figures, these ratios are factual.  Of course they remain open to emotional interpretation, but the fact remains that - thus far, before vaccines and with uncertain & experimental treatments - Covid has a low mortality rate.

to slow the rate of infection long enough to get a vaccine in circulation

That's a valid and noble position.  So - why not do it properly and shut down everything?  Place us in permanent curfew with the army patrolling deserted streets?  Lock us in our homes, like the Chinese did?  Ban all travel, both inter- and intra-national.  Isolate everyone, eliminate every possible vector and the virus will die out.

Why not? - because that would utterly destroy not just our economy but our very civilisation.  More people would starve to death than Covid could ever harm.  And if the virus is genuinely natural in origin there's every chance of it reappearing.  It's too extreme a position, so we have to use more moderate measures.  And as soon as you concede that point we can have a rational debate over the extent those measures should take.  I, for one, believe the response is causing too much harm and needs to be challenged.

The stupid death number comparsion is a well known figure

To dismiss a statistical fact as stupid seems rather short-sighted to me, especially in the context of the discussion.  Obtaining precise figures of death rates is difficult.  Even the WHO's report "World Health Statistics 2020" uses data from 2017-18.  As far as I can see they have not yet produced detailed mortality figures for 2019, let alone 2020.  (Please correct me if you have these figures.)  It remains to be seen the impact Covid will have on the global death rate, and how many of these 1.8 million people would have soon died of some other cause.  We may see a commensurate fall in deaths from 'old age' given that 50% of all deaths occur in the over-70s and very few Covid fatalities are aged below 60.

the C19 deniers community

It's an easy (and lazy) trick - to group together everyone you disagree with and label them something derogatory.  I certainly do not 'deny' the existence of Covid, nor its nature.  I am guilty of challenging the response of our elected authorities, its efficacy and the unintended consequences of lockdowns.  I know that scholastic, scientific masterminds such as Facebook and Twitter have banned such discussions but I hope this site remains open to reasoned debate.

The known figures for strokes etc. are relative the same over the years

This is very far from true.  The numbers for strokes, heart attacks, cancers, AIDS, diabetes, TB & a thousand other ailments do not stay the same.  There are very clear trends in different conditions: some diseases have almost been wiped out whereas others are becoming more commonplace.  (Flippantly - you've got to die of something, and without e.g. smallpox taking its toll something else is gonna get you.)  There is no global consensus on how to measure Covid deaths - each country has its own measure.  (There is not even a consensus on how to measure the effectiveness of the new vaccines.) 

The overall impact of Covid remains to be seen.  So far one person in 4330 globally has died from it.  That's a lot of suffering and a lot of death; I don't deny that or wish it on anyone.  However 40 million people have died from AIDS; we didn't lock down when we could have nipped that in the bud.  Smoking kills 3 million people a year, but we haven't banned that.  Malaria kills 400 000 people a year, and we could eradicate that but there's no political urgency to do so.  

People die.  Nearly 60 million people died in 2020 from causes that were not Covid.  Some of these undoubtedly died because medical resources were diverted to treating the new disease.  Others driven to despair and poverty by government decisions will live shorter, tougher lives.  It is NOT wrong - scientifically, statistically, ethically or morally - to raise these points.