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Will Do

The Image of God

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Mr Walker
21 hours ago, Sherapy said:

He goggled “control thoughts” and found a match then posts the link. It is his pattern, 

 He doesn’t have practical knowledge about CBT but he can pretend to. 

None the less, Third eye and Eighty have added so:much to thread.  

I love that third eye recommended a wonderful book which I hope to finish tonight and eights Jungian contribution was engaging, interesting and insightful. I literally think eight is an expert on Jung. :wub:

 

 

 

 

Fairy tale love, for many of us, is also reality. 

I've experienced it all my life, from  my  parents, relatives,  wife, and many others. 

It is what i see as the norm, and best  relationship, but i know many are not as fortunate as  I. 

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Mr Walker
21 hours ago, Sherapy said:

He goggled “control thoughts” and found a match then posts the link. It is his pattern, 

 He doesn’t have practical knowledge about CBT but he can pretend to. 

None the less, Third eye and Eighty have added so:much to thread.  

I love that third eye recommended a wonderful book which I hope to finish tonight and eights Jungian contribution was engaging, interesting and insightful. I literally think eight is an expert on Jung. :wub:

 

 

 

 

Thats a lie Read my post and reference to my local GP I was always interested.

He was the expert and put me onto these programmes, for professional purposes.

 quote 

Two years later, after 13 rewrites, on top of working 70-80 hours a week, Dr Fleming had done just that. His peer-reviewed thesis, which received high commendation, gave him a postgraduate Doctor of Medicine degree and confirmed through rigorous statistical analysis that suicide rates in Tumby Bay had dropped below the national average.

Having tried, without success, to get better mental health support for Tumby Bay, the aim of his thesis was simple: “to determine whether suicidal behaviour in the Tumby Bay district could be reduced by enhancing and utilising community resources.”

Professor Goldney supervised the writing of Dr Fleming’s thesis. As he told Australian Rural Doctor: “It was good work. It was terrific.”

Professor Goldney says while many countries have pulled teams of experts together to formulate national suicide programs, Dr Fleming’s effort embodied all the broad-brush suicide prevention strategies those committees typically came up with. And he’d done it alone, based on common sense.

“It was a massive undertaking. I can’t speak too highly about what he has done,” Dr Goldney says.

“There is no doubt that it has made a difference. What he introduced has worked.”

Dr Fleming is pleased to have reduced his crisis counselling load and the trauma the town has experienced.

 

https://www.wordsbywiseman.com.au/mission-for-life/

 

he put me onto this programme and when i had finished it .I went on to try others .

https://www.additudemag.com/treatment/moodgym/

 

 

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Mr Walker
23 hours ago, Sherapy said:

He goggled “control thoughts” and found a match then posts the link. It is his pattern, 

 He doesn’t have practical knowledge about CBT but he can pretend to. 

None the less, Third eye and Eighty have added so:much to thread.  

I love that third eye recommended a wonderful book which I hope to finish tonight and eights Jungian contribution was engaging, interesting and insightful. I literally think eight is an expert on Jung. :wub:

 

 

 

 

I am beginning to suspect that you have not actually studied this  area, nor have you any real experts you turn to

You have totally misunderstood the nature, use, and practice, of CBT and misread and misunderstood material you have googled about it .

If  you actually knew anything about it, you couldn't possibly get it so wrong, even with the powerful cognitive biases you have in this area

( Ie you cant accept that  that humans do construct their emotional responses, and thus can  control, or reconstruct them, into more positive /constructive ones by; understanding of their constructs, will/discipline, and practice)

CBT teaches a person to recognise their state of mind, the triggers for that  state of mind, and how it was constructed.   It points out the short and longer term dangers and problems with negative constructs, and the benefits of positive ones, 

it then gives skills and techniques allowing a person to  consciously  identify and deconstruct their current response, and rebuild a new, more positive, cognitive response, emotion or feeling 

It provides a programme to develop this skill/ability;  gradually giving skills and feed back (both online, and in person, if required )  

https://psychcentral.com/lib/in-depth-cognitive-behavioral-therapy#3

 

 

Edited by Mr Walker

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qxcontinuum
On 12/31/2020 at 12:57 PM, OverSword said:

I think the only way that can be achieved is to think and act correctly about everything.  You would almost have to overcome your own brain chemistry to do that and I'm not sure that's possible.

I think it is, interestingly enough we can do a lot of things through meditation I am sure. Including telling our own body to heal, even speaking to our cells, reprogramming them should be possible.

Modern medicine calls it placebo effect but I think it's much more.

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signs_of_the_times

There's a difference between being "as perfect as God" and "perfect, like God is also perfect". In the latter case, which is what Matthew 5:48 is saying, we have to keep in mind that the "perfection standard" (if you will) for man is much lower than God's. 

God is measuring how hard we are fighting against our own flesh (impulses, evil thoughts, temptations and so on). You may lose a battle with your flesh every now and then but are you fighting as hard as you can? Or just halfway? Or just sometimes? If you are fighting as hard as a man possibly can, then this may be the state of perfection that Jesus talks about. 

 

The next question is, what does the life of a man in this state of perfection look like? Is he completely sin-free? Can a man wrestle his own flesh and win every time? Or does he continue to lose some battles while remaining perfect in his heart? 

 

Edited by signs_of_the_times
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larryp
On 12/31/2020 at 9:43 AM, Will Do said:

Wisdom of Solomon 2:23: For God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of his own eternity.

Will, the above scripture doesn't exist; but, here is one that does. "It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step." Jeremiah 10:23

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Will Do
2 minutes ago, larryp said:

"It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step." Jeremiah 10:23

 

Larry,

You probably understand that verse at least better than I do. It doesn't make sense to me. It's probably because the context isn't there.

Can you explain what the message is?

 

 

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Mr Walker
3 hours ago, larryp said:

Will, the above scripture doesn't exist; but, here is one that does.

Jeremiah 10:23

yes it does 

 

Wisdom of Solomon 2:23-24 KJVAAE

For God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of his own eternity. Nevertheless through envy of the devil came death into the world: and they that do hold of his side do find it.

 

Your own quote is very well known and used, In JW circles, to promote obedience 

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Mr Walker
3 hours ago, Will Do said:

 

Larry,

You probably understand that verse at least better than I do. It doesn't make sense to me. It's probably because the context isn't there.

Can you explain what the message is?

 

 

To me it goes to the argument about free will or perhaps  the need for man to be obedient to god 

 

 O Jehovah, I know that the way of man does not belong to man; it is not in man who walks to direct his steps.

O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps.

ie we should follow god's directions, even down  to how and where we "walk" in life.  

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larryp
On 1/26/2021 at 11:59 PM, Mr Walker said:

yes it does 

 

Wisdom of Solomon 2:23-24 KJVAAE

For God created man to be immortal, and made him to be an image of his own eternity. Nevertheless through envy of the devil came death into the world: and they that do hold of his side do find it.

The expressions “immortal” or “immortality” do not occur in the Hebrew Scriptures. 

Edited by larryp

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Mr Walker
24 minutes ago, larryp said:

The expressions “immortal” or “immortality” do not occur in the Hebrew Scriptures.

There may be no Hebrew word  immortality but the concept  of it is expressed in the OT using other words 

Proverbs 12:28

"In the way of righteousness is life, and in its pathway there is no death"

—immortality (as the word is translated in the NIV) is, literally, the Hebrew phrase "no-death"

And of course, unless  a person is Jewish, the WHOLE bible must be taken together   ie  the old and new  testaments are not contradictory, but supplementary.  Longevity and particularly, long life were the gift of the tree of life, and immortality was removed with the fall (god specifically ordered the  garden closed to prevent access to the tree of life lest men become as god, possessing both knowledge and immortality.)

  But god in christian theology promises eternal life, with some conditions, and death of the body and soul rather than hell, for those not willing to meet those conditions. ie on the new earth, conditions are restored to the pre fall conditions of Eden ,

8bits will be amused here because you are speaking the words of EG White who wrote on this topic (in Man's Nature and Destiny, I think ) And i am arguing against them :) 

Maybe she was wrong, or maybe she was speaking of something else, because the whole basis of christian faith is summed up in john 3:16

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish, but have eternal life.

Personally, I think she meant that man is not naturally immortal, but that  this is a gift from god, as is life itself .
 

Edited by Mr Walker

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larryp
17 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

There may be no Hebrew word  immortality but the concept  of it is expressed in the OT using other words 

Proverbs 12:28

Smoke and  mirrors!!

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larryp
On 1/2/2021 at 5:41 PM, Mr Walker said:

anxiety depression and lesser mental illnesses can indeed be overcome by cognitive behaviour therapy (which is the application of knoldge and understanding  via willpower and discipline to alter your state of mind and perception )

YHWH

Wrong, that's like telling someone with a brain tumor to wait it out; it will get better without medical treatment. It would help if you were careful with your faulty reasoning; you might hurt someone.

Edited by larryp

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Crazy Horse
On 12/31/2020 at 5:57 PM, OverSword said:

I think the only way that can be achieved is to think and act correctly about everything.  You would almost have to overcome your own brain chemistry to do that and I'm not sure that's possible.

Or to stop thinking altogether, feeling the present, from moment to moment?

A spontaneous action from a place of love and understanding.

 

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Crazy Horse
2 hours ago, larryp said:

YHWH

Wrong, that's like telling someone with a brain tumor to wait it out; it will get better without medical treatment. It would help if you were careful with your faulty reasoning; you might hurt someone.

It is you who has the faulty reasoning. 

Pharmaceutical drugs may dampen the symptoms of a mental disorder, but to get to the root cause and so fix it for good, takes a phycological approach.

Mr Walker wasn't suggesting doing nothing, hoping in will get better, he actually suggested a remedy.

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larryp

 

How can you fix a chemical imbalance with psychology? It may help, but not fix. Now, who's reasoning is faulty! 

Edited by larryp
the details

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Mr Walker
15 hours ago, larryp said:

Smoke and  mirrors!!

Only to the extent tha t all the words of the bible can be seen as smoke and mirrors 

One must read it and study it academically i not through the eyes of a particular religion to best interpret the writer's words .

Even then, 2-4000 years of cultural evolution will make it hard to understand the writers pov 

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Mr Walker
5 hours ago, larryp said:

YHWH

Wrong, that's like telling someone with a brain tumor to wait it out; it will get better without medical treatment. It would help if you were careful with your faulty reasoning; you might hurt someone.

anxiety depression and lesser mental illnesses can indeed be overcome by cognitive behaviour therapy (which is the application of knoldge and understanding  via willpower and discipline to alter your state of mind and perception )

Maybe you  didnt read my post carefully enough.

Anxiety depression and LESSER mental illnesses can be treated, and often cured, with CBT, or other psychological methods. That includes PTSD and phobias 

Some mental illnesses are caused by a chemical imbalance.

Then, and only then, should chemicals be used to restore that balance  These are comparatively rare, composing perhaps 5-10 % of all mental illnesses 

In the near past thousands of children, especially, were  unnecessarily   treated with chemicals This is now seen as bad medicine 

In Australia, and most modern countries, the use of chemical treatments is being minimised, and counselling and specific programmes like CBT are being used 

Most depresion for example is not chemically based, but cognitively based,  and caused by issues, stresses etc in a  person's life, shaping the way they are thinking 

As with ANY illness physical or mental good professional help should be sought asap   

Then follow the professional's advice 

However, it is misleading, and thus potentially dangerous, for you suggest that  drugs are a simple and harmless answer to the problem of mental illnesses. 

quote

Psychological treatments (or ‘therapies’) help by giving people an opportunity to talk about their thoughts and feelings with a specially-trained professional in order to understand and cope with their symptoms.

Psychological treatments can reduce the distress associated with symptoms and can even help reduce the symptoms themselves. Depending on the person, these therapies may take time (often months) to show benefits.

There are many different psychological therapies used in the treatment of mental illness. Each person needs to find the therapy that works for them. Not all treatments are helpful for everyone.

Some examples of psychological therapies include:

cognitive behaviour therapy (CBT) – examines how a person’s thoughts, feelings and behaviour can get stuck in unhelpful patterns. The person and a therapist work together to develop new ways of thinking and acting. CBT usually includes tasks to perform outside the therapy sessions. CBT may be useful in the treatment of depression, anxiety disorders and psychotic disorders such as bipolar disorder and schizophrenia

interpersonal psychotherapy (IPT) – examines how a person’s relationships and interactions with others can affect their own thoughts, behaviours and feelings. Difficult relationships may cause stress for a person with a mental illness and improving these relationships may improve their quality of life. This therapy may be useful in the treatment of depression

dialectical behaviour therapy (DBT) – is a therapy generally used for people living with borderline personality disorder (BPD), but can be helpful for other psychological issues. A key difficulty for people living with BPD is managing emotions. This therapy helps people better manage their emotions and responses. 

Back to top

Medications for mental illness

Medications are mainly helpful for people who are more seriously affected by mental illness. Different types of medication treat different types of mental illness, including:

antidepressant medications – these medications may be prescribed (in combination with psychological therapies) to treat depression, anxiety, phobias and some eating disorders

antipsychotic medications – are mostly used to treat psychotic illnesses, for example, schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. These medications may also be prescribed for major depression or severe anxiety

mood-stabilising medications – are helpful for people living with bipolar disorder (previously known as manic depression). These medications can help reduce the recurrence of major depression and can help reduce the manic or ‘high’ episodes.

https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/conditionsandtreatments/mental-illness-treatments

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker
1 hour ago, larryp said:

 

How can you fix a chemical imbalance with psychology? It may help, but not fix. Now, who's reasoning is faulty! 

Correct, but the great majority of "mental illnesses" are not CAUSED by chemical imbalance, but by stress, anxiety, and life's challenges and difficulties. Giving chemicals in those cases might make a person feel better, but doesn't solve the problem.

     Some drugs including many  anti depressants are also habit forming and have negative side effects.

Generally the y are only used for a "short"  period of time  UNLESS there is a persistent physical problem in the body.

   quote

Other anti-anxiety medications include the benzodiazepines, such as *** Spam filter *** (*** Spam filter ***), clonazepam (Klonopin), diazepam (Valium), and lorazepam (Ativan). These drugs carry a risk of addiction, so they are not as desirable for long-term use. Other possible side effects include drowsiness, poor concentration, and irritability.

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/medications-treat-disorders#2

 

There is no doubt  that,  for some, especially the most severely affected,   prescribed drugs are a great benefit, and allow them to function and live in the community.

However, in modern medicine, drugs are increasingly being replaced by therapies.

Even where drugs are used, therapies are usually also prescribed  

 

Edited by Mr Walker

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Sherapy
2 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

anxiety depression and lesser mental illnesses can indeed be overcome by cognitive behaviour therapy (which is the application of knoldge and understanding  via willpower and discipline to alter your state of mind and perception )

Maybe you  didnt read my post carefully enough.

Anxiety depression and LESSER mental illnesses can be treated, and often cured, with CBT, or other psychological methods. That includes PTSD and phobias 

Some mental illnesses are caused by a chemical imbalance.

Then, and only then, should chemicals be used to restore that balance  These are comparatively rare, composing perhaps 5-10 % of all mental illnesses 

In the near past thousands of children, especially, were  unnecessarily   treated with chemicals This is now seen as bad medicine 

In Australia, and most modern countries, the use of chemical treatments is being minimised, and counselling and specific programmes like CBT are being used 

Most depresion for example is not chemically based, but cognitively based,  and caused by issues, stresses etc in a  person's life, shaping the way they are thinking 

As with ANY illness physical or mental good professional help should be sought asap   

Then follow the professional's advice 

However, it is misleading, and thus potentially dangerous, for you suggest that  drugs are a simple and harmless answer to the problem of mental illnesses. 

quote

Psychological treatments (or ‘therapies’) help by giving people an opportunity to talk about their thoughts and feelings with a specially-trained professional in order to understand and cope with their symptoms.

Psychological treatments can reduce the distress associated with symptoms and can even help reduce the symptoms themselves. Depending on the person, these therapies may take time (often months) to show benefits.

There are many different psychological therapies used in the treatment of mental illness. Each person needs to find the therapy that works for them. Not all treatments are helpful for everyone.

Some examples of psychological therapies include:

cognitive behaviour therapy (CBT) – examines how a person’s thoughts, feelings and behaviour can get stuck in unhelpful patterns. The person and a therapist work together to develop new ways of thinking and acting. CBT usually includes tasks to perform outside the therapy sessions. CBT may be useful in the treatment of depression, anxiety disorders and psychotic disorders such as bipolar disorder and schizophrenia

interpersonal psychotherapy (IPT) – examines how a person’s relationships and interactions with others can affect their own thoughts, behaviours and feelings. Difficult relationships may cause stress for a person with a mental illness and improving these relationships may improve their quality of life. This therapy may be useful in the treatment of depression

dialectical behaviour therapy (DBT) – is a therapy generally used for people living with borderline personality disorder (BPD), but can be helpful for other psychological issues. A key difficulty for people living with BPD is managing emotions. This therapy helps people better manage their emotions and responses. 

Back to top

Medications for mental illness

Medications are mainly helpful for people who are more seriously affected by mental illness. Different types of medication treat different types of mental illness, including:

antidepressant medications – these medications may be prescribed (in combination with psychological therapies) to treat depression, anxiety, phobias and some eating disorders

antipsychotic medications – are mostly used to treat psychotic illnesses, for example, schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. These medications may also be prescribed for major depression or severe anxiety

mood-stabilising medications – are helpful for people living with bipolar disorder (previously known as manic depression). These medications can help reduce the recurrence of major depression and can help reduce the manic or ‘high’ episodes.

https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/conditionsandtreatments/mental-illness-treatments

You are not a psychiatrist leave the diagnosis to them. Do No Harm, MW, do no harm. 
 

 

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Nuclear Wessel
7 hours ago, Sherapy said:

You are not a psychiatrist leave the diagnosis to them. Do No Harm, MW, do no harm. 

The fact that he addresses some mental illnesses as "lesser" when compared to others just speaks to how resoundingly unqualified he truly is on such matters. It is incredibly unprofessional for an alleged counsellor to make such claims.

I can't believe he actually referred to PTSD as "lesser" than anxiety and depression. Perhaps he needs a crash course to see just how debilitating this disorder truly is. My mother has suffered terribly for many years because of a sexual assault. Tell her that her ****ing PTSD is "lesser" than anxiety and depression. Tell that soldier who killed himself because of recurring flashbacks and grotesque nightmares from war that their disorder is "lesser" than anxiety and depression.

*snip*

Edited by Saru
Removed personal attacks
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Mr Walker
33 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

You are not a psychiatrist leave the diagnosis to them. Do No Harm, MW, do no harm. 
 

 

If you  READ my post you will know that  is exaclty what i recommended Dont make mischievous suggestions that i am offering medical advice.

I am passing on expert advice.

If you  truly know anything about CBT you will know tha t i am correct 

You are simply stirring the pot .

As i wrote. 

As with ANY illness, physical or mental, good professional help should be sought asap   

Then follow the professional's advice 

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Sherapy
11 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

If you  READ my post you will know that  is exaclty what i recommended Dont make mischievous suggestions that i am offering medical advice.

I am passing on expert advice.

If you  truly know anything about CBT you will know tha t i am correct 

You are simply stirring the pot .

As i wrote. 

As with ANY illness, physical or mental, good professional help should be sought asap   

Then follow the professional's advice 

You shouldn’t be giving medical advice at all, for any reason. You are not a Psychiatrist or anyone’s doctor. There is nothing to argue or defend it is just best to stop. 
 

 

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Nuclear Wessel
3 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

You shouldn’t be giving medical advice at all, for any reason. You are not a Psychiatrist or anyone’s doctor. There is nothing to argue or defend it is just best to stop. 
 

 

It's actually against the forum rules to do so.

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Mr Walker
7 hours ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

The fact that he addresses some mental illnesses as "lesser" when compared to others just speaks to how resoundingly unqualified he truly is on such matters. It is incredibly unprofessional for an alleged counsellor to make such claims.

I can't believe he actually referred to PTSD as "lesser" than anxiety and depression. Perhaps he needs a crash course to see just how debilitating this disorder truly is. My mother has suffered terribly for many years because of a sexual assault. She can't even go into a bathroom at night with the lights on/the curtains open in the window because of it. Tell her that her ****ing PTSD is "lesser" than anxiety and depression. Tell that soldier who killed himself because of recurring flashbacks and grotesque nightmares from war that their disorder is "lesser" than anxiety and depression.

Rad the sources i gave from  professional organizations 

Lesser or less serious are terms used by them 

The gradations are based on how much an illness affects a person's functionality and abilty to live life, including the risk of self  harm or harm to others 

This is the wording of the Victorian govt site for Better Health 

Medications are mainly helpful for people who are more seriously affected by mental illness.

I did not say PTSD is lesser (although you could read the paragraph tha t way. I correctly said that things treatable byCBT include the lesser illnsses of anxiety and nonclinical depression   AND PTSD and phobias.   It is however not always  caused    by chemical imbalances and thus is treatable by therapies  Sometimes it is "caused"by an imbalance of two chemicals one of which is serotonin.  In those cases (as i pointed out in my earlier posts ) drug therapy is recommended and effective. However, in the past,  many people were prescribed drugs when the y had no ned for them and this caused ongoing addictions and dependency, and sometimes serious side effects, long term  It sometimes made them feel better (or feelnothing)  while they took the drugs but the cause was not treated and thus not healed 

Today chemicals are prescribed cautiously and usually (in better systems) only to treat chemical imbalances Even then the y are accompanied by therapies like CBT 

Dont take my word for it.

Doas much research as you need to,   but don't accuse me of getting this wrong.

I may not be a psychologist. but i have a damn sight more knowledge and experience in this area than you, or most other posters, do 

But PLEASE dont mislead others just so you can argue with me .

This is an incredibly significant problem, and a growing one.

People need to  be as informed /aware of it as possible,and treat it just like a physical illness, with professional help ASAP 

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