Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Dreamer screamer

Stan Tenen: Geometry of Language (excerpt)

193 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

Dreamer screamer
Posted (edited)

A Thinking Allowed

We already have;

abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz < English

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ < not English, so what is it? is it the language of the corporation?

When getting any letter through the post, why has it a mixture of all upper case and lower case text?   I mean, are they shouting at you?  You accept someone shouting at you?

Why in the bible is LORD written like this when our highest supreme courts are our LORD and masters and rule over us in a legal jurisdiction?  They may speak English, but have to sign in words All caps and use the 1882 bills of exchange act to make anything legal with a signature creating liability.

All rules have to be adhered too as no man is above no man in a court of dejure.  defacto court are not allowed as it is stated in halsburys law admin 2011 that all administrative courts are illegal.

 

Just gives weight to the argument that there is more than one language being used, and it seems that this has been going on for a long time without us knowing!

Edited by Dreamer screamer
add on

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sir Wearer of Hats

are you suggesting that the usage of uppercase words is an attempt to subtly influence the thinking of the reader?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dreamer screamer
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, President Wearer of Hats said:

are you suggesting that the usage of uppercase words is an attempt to subtly influence the thinking of the reader?

Yes in a legal sense. 

all caps
adjective
(also all-caps)
 
written in capital letters (= letters of the alphabet in the form and larger size that is used at the beginning of sentences and names), especially in order to emphasize something or show that you are angry about something:
 
So when you get a bill, they are angry at you?    :lol: or does it have a deeper meaning?  Certainly doesn't say it is English.
Edited by Dreamer screamer

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sir Wearer of Hats

Well, from a dramatic writing perspective, you capitalise words for the same reason you italicise them - effect. Originally it was a typesetting technique for those using typewriters where they couldn’t italicise words but you could type in all caps as a signal to the typesetter of the completed manuscript that that specific word needed emphasis. 
 

From a Biblical perspective the LORD was all caps because he was, in effect, shouted. Also, it was a sign that there was a special “sacred” word being covered up with the word “LORD”. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sir Wearer of Hats

Also, I do assume my bills are shouting at me. They’re shouting “PAY ME!” ;)

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dreamer screamer
5 minutes ago, President Wearer of Hats said:

Also, I do assume my bills are shouting at me. They’re shouting “PAY ME!” ;)

But there are rules to this game.  That is just an assumption and doesn't say "pay me"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sir Wearer of Hats
1 minute ago, Dreamer screamer said:

But there are rules to this game.  That is just an assumption and doesn't say "pay me"

Dunno what bills you get DS, but mine do say “pay me” (albeit in less blunt terms) and do express the consequences of non-payment. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dreamer screamer
Just now, President Wearer of Hats said:

Dunno what bills you get DS, but mine do say “pay me” (albeit in less blunt terms) and do express the consequences of non-payment. 

So if you don't pay your bills, you go to prison? :o  what kind of society are we living in?  with all the covid-19 and businesses going down, so many will be heading to prison unable to pay their bills then  :huh:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sir Wearer of Hats
8 minutes ago, Dreamer screamer said:

So if you don't pay your bills, you go to prison? :o  what kind of society are we living in?  with all the covid-19 and businesses going down, so many will be heading to prison unable to pay their bills then  :huh:

That’s an odd leap there, DS. 
While in the past “non payment of bills” was an imprisonable offence (debtor’s prison), these days non-payment of bills results in loss of services - thus a consequence. 
It’s rather Newtonian - a service will begin to service you upon the action of an outside force (initial payment), a service will remain servicing you as long as it’s acted upon by an outside force (payment), a service will cease to service you if an outside force is not applied (non-payment).

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dreamer screamer
22 minutes ago, President Wearer of Hats said:

That’s an odd leap there, DS. 
While in the past “non payment of bills” was an imprisonable offence (debtor’s prison), these days non-payment of bills results in loss of services - thus a consequence. 
It’s rather Newtonian - a service will begin to service you upon the action of an outside force (initial payment), a service will remain servicing you as long as it’s acted upon by an outside force (payment), a service will cease to service you if an outside force is not applied (non-payment).

:blink:

Quote

a service will begin to service you upon the action of an outside force (initial payment),

You do know that so called money is created with ink and paper right?   special paper! to stop counterfeit.

https://storage.googleapis.com/wzukusers/user-25713022/documents/5a6bcea55f8b85ePv1xr/The Chicago Manual of Style (16th Edition) - University of Chicago Press Staff.pdf

5.147"MUST"Must denotes a necessity that arises from someone's will {we must obey the rules} or fromcircumstances {you must ask what the next step is}. Must also connotes a logical conclusion {that mustbe the right answer} {that must be the house we're looking for} {it must have been Donna whophoned}. This verb does not vary its form in either the present or past indicative. It does not have aninfinitive form (to have to is substituted) or a present or past participle. Denoting obligation, necessity,or inference, must is always used with an express or implied infinitive {we must finish this design}{everyone must eat} {the movie must be over by now}.

So if they say you must pay the bill, it is an obligation?   expressed or implied ?  

 

7.48CAPITALSFOREMPHASISInitial capitals, once used to lend importance to certain words, are now used only ironically (but see8.93)."OK, so I'm a Bad Mother," admitted Mary cheerfully.Capitalizing an entire word or phrase for emphasis is rarely appropriate. If capitals are wanted--indialogue or in representing newspaper headlines, for example--small caps rather than full capitalslook more graceful. Note that "capitalizing" a word means setting only the initial letter as a capital.Capitalizing a whole word, LIKE THIS, is known as "setting in full caps." Setting a word in smallcapitals--or "small caps"--results in THIS STYLE. (For the use of small capitals in representing terms inAmerican Sign Language, see 11.144--54.) See also 10.8

11.144SIGNEDLANGUAGESThe visual-gestural languages used by deaf people in different parts of the world are called signedlanguages. Signed languages are quite different from spoken languages (although there may beregional effects of language contact), and a particular signed language may or may not share thesame national or geographic boundaries as spoken languages in the same locations. The individualelements of these languages are known as signs.

So all caps is a sign language? 

 

So are they speaking to us in sign language in a the ALL CAPS?

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Essan
3 minutes ago, Dreamer screamer said:

:blink:

You do know that so called money is created with ink and paper right?   special paper! to stop counterfeit.

Not in the UK

Money is made out of metal

Promisory notes (which are not legal tender) are made out of plastic

;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dreamer screamer

Sign language because we can't read or understand a sign in all caps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Essan
1 hour ago, Dreamer screamer said:

So if you don't pay your bills, you go to prison? :o  what kind of society are we living in?  with all the covid-19 and businesses going down, so many will be heading to prison unable to pay their bills then  :huh:

If I engage you to provide a service at an agreed recompense, and I then refuse to pay you, then yes, I could go to prison (though unlikely these days)

Are you saying you'll happily do work for me for free?  

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dreamer screamer
2 minutes ago, Essan said:

Not in the UK

Money is made out of metal

Promisory notes (which are not legal tender) are made out of plastic

;)

Promissory notes are to be treated as cash - Lord denning. 

 
noun
plural noun: promissory notes
  1. a signed document containing a written promise to pay a stated sum to a specified person or the bearer at a specified date or on demand.
     
    Quote

    Money is made out of metal

    So can you take your promissory note into the bank and get your metal, ie gold then?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dreamer screamer
2 minutes ago, Essan said:

If I engage you to provide a service at an agreed recompense, and I then refuse to pay you, then yes, I could go to prison (though unlikely these days)

Are you saying you'll happily do work for me for free?  

That is an interesting question.   Would I work for free for you?  would you work free for me?   Ok, lose the world for a moment, let us just assume we are both farmers and I asked you to do something for me.  I offer you £5, i would have to draw this up and create it to pay you for the work I needed doing.  Now you want me to do some work for you and you will pay me £5.  I would refuse because I know I made up my £5, so you would have to make up £5 too.  So why should I work for something you created?  You worked for something that was created too, but I fooled you and you went with it.  Apply this same logic to the world, and see something is very wrong.  Look at the money and who owns it.   Are we all being conned??

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sir Wearer of Hats

well, my money is made of plastic ;)

and the language in bills is implicit consequential - you must pay this Bill by XX/YY/ZZZZ or (insert implicit consequence here). 
And, not knowing how bills are worded in America, the consequence is often spelt out to the tune of “services will be suspended” within the Bill document shortly after the “pay this amount by this time” section. 

The “must” here serves to define the given date as “non-negotiable”, you cannot pay after that date. It is not a command “must” (that meaning “do as you are told, pleb”) but rather a definitive “must” (that meaning “this is the last point wherein you can continue services”). 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sir Wearer of Hats
Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, Dreamer screamer said:

That is an interesting question.   Would I work for free for you?  would you work free for me?   Ok, lose the world for a moment, let us just assume we are both farmers and I asked you to do something for me.  I offer you £5, i would have to draw this up and create it to pay you for the work I needed doing.  Now you want me to do some work for you and you will pay me £5.  I would refuse because I know I made up my £5, so you would have to make up £5 too.  So why should I work for something you created?  You worked for something that was created too, but I fooled you and you went with it.  Apply this same logic to the world, and see something is very wrong.  Look at the money and who owns it.   Are we all being conned??

DS, money is inherently meaningless. It’s meaning is only within a socio-cultural construct that we agree to abide by. It exists to act as a transactional medium that extends the “I will trade a tray of my turnips for a tray of your tomatoes” into professions that do not produce physically transactional product (my profession for example. While I’d be happy to be paid in turnips and tomatoes, “your child can bounce a ball” isn’t exactly an easily quantified commodity to dictate how many tomatoes I deserve as recompense). 

Edited by President Wearer of Hats
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Dreamer screamer said:

Yes in a legal sense. 

all caps
adjective
(also all-caps)
 
written in capital letters (= letters of the alphabet in the form and larger size that is used at the beginning of sentences and names), especially in order to emphasize something or show that you are angry about something:
 
So when you get a bill, they are angry at you?    :lol: or does it have a deeper meaning?  Certainly doesn't say it is English.

lol

At first i didnt get you, but then i realised you are too young to understand  traditional English usage 

There are several reason why people have traditionally used caps 

(shouting is a very modern one, which evolved with the internet)

So, apart from  beginning sentences and proper nouns, (and a long time ago, ANY noun) caps were sometimes used to get attention 

In a letter  from  an organisation the important bits were capitalised to get your attention and make sure you read them  (no italics on a manual typewriter) 

This probably began with the advent of the manual typewriter which facilitated it .ie once you had one finger on the  "shift lock"  key it was easy to just continue til the end of a word 

Names and titles were often capitalised as an extension of being proper nouns 

Another way to get attention was to type in red (usually on the bottom of the ribbon and requiring a key to lift the ribbon into a position where it would be struck) 

Edited by Mr Walker
  • Thanks 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Dreamer screamer said:

But there are rules to this game.  That is just an assumption and doesn't say "pay me"

Not rules but understood and established conventions 

The problem illustrated here, is that  our conventions are changing so fast, and our teaching is not keeping up with these changes, that a young person has no idea why the y get a letter with some words capitalised 

Eg we all once addressed each other as Mr. Mrs. or master/miss. unless you knew a person very well,  and/ or were on an equal social footing with them   

This source gives a good account of how the use of computers encouraged capitalisation In early computing COMMANDS were capitalised and thus capitalisation became standard for a command type /shouting ,voice.  

 

https://www.wired.com/story/all-caps-because-internet-gretchen-mcculloch/

Edited by Mr Walker
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dreamer screamer
4 hours ago, Mr Walker said:

lol

At first i didnt get you, but then i realised you are too young to understand  traditional English usage 

There are several reason why people have traditionally used caps 

(shouting is a very modern one, which evolved with the internet)

So, apart from  beginning sentences and proper nouns, (and a long time ago, ANY noun) caps were sometimes used to get attention 

In a letter  from  an organisation the important bits were capitalised to get your attention and make sure you read them  (no italics on a manual typewriter) 

This probably began with the advent of the manual typewriter which facilitated it .ie once you had one finger on the  "shift lock"  key it was easy to just continue til the end of a word 

Names and titles were often capitalised as an extension of being proper nouns 

Another way to get attention was to type in red (usually on the bottom of the ribbon and requiring a key to lift the ribbon into a position where it would be struck) 

You still are not getting me.  :lol:

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dreamer screamer
9 hours ago, President Wearer of Hats said:

DS, money is inherently meaningless. It’s meaning is only within a socio-cultural construct that we agree to abide by. It exists to act as a transactional medium that extends the “I will trade a tray of my turnips for a tray of your tomatoes” into professions that do not produce physically transactional product (my profession for example. While I’d be happy to be paid in turnips and tomatoes, “your child can bounce a ball” isn’t exactly an easily quantified commodity to dictate how many tomatoes I deserve as recompense). 

So why do we have banks?  why do people send threatening letters in all caps demanding money?    Should I send back - Money is meaningless?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sir Wearer of Hats
10 hours ago, Dreamer screamer said:

So why do we have banks?  why do people send threatening letters in all caps demanding money?    Should I send back - Money is meaningless?

Re-read what I said. It’s meaning is supplied by it’s use and it’s use is as an ertze for labour/goods in repayment for labour/goods supplied. Look at it like this - I am paid roughly $50 an hour. What I do in that hour wildly varies so that one hour could be 45 minutes of playground supervision and 15 minutes of me eating and going to the loo and another different $50 is me teaching children how to kick, throw and catch a rugby ball safely and skilfully repeated to different groups of children. You cannot, therefore, say that my $50 is equal to any specific unit of labour BUT it exists so I can procure labour or goods in order to continue living as if I was directly trading my labour or goods for such. 
 

Money has no meaning other than the meaning we give it. But we do give it meaning, and bills exist to say “you owe us recompense for labour/goods”. We thus recompend with the ertze medium for labour/goods - money. Money that is earnt through the provision of labour and/or goods a third party and transferred to a fourth. Money means I can provide a service to Peter, snd be able to provide recommence to Paul for his service without having To service Paul as well. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
11 hours ago, Dreamer screamer said:

You still are not getting me.  :lol:

 

Of course not :)  I gave a simple, rational, technical answer.

You are looking for some sort of complex conspiracy theory, or at least some deep psychological  rationale (eg people are trying to give you  a hidden message by using all caps.) 

To "get you", I would have to think like you, and i prefer not to :)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Mr Walker
Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, Dreamer screamer said:

So why do we have banks?  why do people send threatening letters in all caps demanding money?    Should I send back - Money is meaningless?

Bank came from  the Italian/Latin word for bench  (banco)

It was a table on which deals were made  involving money

History. The word bank comes from an Italian word banco, meaning a bench, since Italian merchants in the Renaissance made deals to borrow and lend money beside a bench. They placed the money on that bench. ... The goldsmiths eventually started loaning money using the gold left to them, and also paid interest on the gold.

Eventually a building was  used for the purpose and it was called a bank 

Its already been explained to you why money and banks evolved 

Simply it was a way of exchanging things using tokens with an agreed value, for a good or service  Eg suppose i was a chicken farmer ina village and wanted some new shoes  but the shoe maker wanted a pig.  I had to exchange my chickens for a pig and then pay the shoe maker 

BUT if everyone in the village agreed on the value of things (and trusted each other )  then we could  use  tokens to represent value.

  Then when i sold my chickens i could get tokens(money) I could then swap my tokens (money ) for new shoes without having to sell my chickens directly to the shoe maker, or barter them for other goods 

Once this spread outside an area where people trusted each other, the tokens often had real value, being made of silver or gold ,  but where a govt was strong and trusted the y did not have to have real value  

And money was much more portable than chickens  once people began to move long distances 

In the middle ages, when the crusades were on and people were travelling  a lot,  the Templars set up places where you could exchange money for a note  When you travelled to a new land you could  swap tha t note for your money, meaning you didn't risk losing it, or having it stolen on your journey. 

You do not HAVE to use money or banks.

It is your choice, but its so integrated into our society  that you will find it hard  not to (and yup there are few people who try to use a barter system for much of their needs.)  

In Australia use of actual money in transactions is decreasing, as people use cards, and their phones, to make transactions Some places with covid  around , wont even accept cash  

BUT, more and more money is being hoarded,  as happens in uncertain times 

 

lol sorry mr president; I see you had already given the non walker( Ie succinct)  explanation for this  :) 

 

Edited by Mr Walker
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Dreamer screamer
1 hour ago, Mr Walker said:

Of course not :)  I gave a simple, rational, technical answer.

You are looking for some sort of complex conspiracy theory, or at least some deep psychological  rationale (eg people are trying to give you  a hidden message by using all caps.

To "get you", I would have to think like you, and i prefer not to :)

I found it already, just wanted to see if anyone else saw it.   I guess you can read sign language and bow down to it as if it was English.   I can't understand a bleeding word of it, all just babble too me.

Babble:

1. To utter a meaningless confusion of words or sounds: Babies babble before they can talk.

 

I guess you are at the stage of learning how to read.  

 

Quote

To "get you", I would have to think like you, and i prefer not to

If you ever think like me, you might graduate to being a full human being.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.