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Just To Clarify - How to Run a US Election


ChrLzs

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15 minutes ago, OverSword said:

If you're not registered as a party member why should you be allowed to vote in the primaries?  The primaries are for the parties to decide who they will run, it's not a general election.

Because the primaries are where the candidates are decided.   If you are independent you should still be allowed to vote in the primaries or a primary.    Currently there are over 40% of people registered as independent or 3rd party in states that only allow democrats and republicans to vote in primaries.   That means that over 40% of the voters have no vote.  

There are a couple of organizations that are pushing for ranked choice voting so that in the primaries you vote your top five in order of preference. The state of Maine has done this since 2016 and even did it for the 2020 presidential election, many local elections are done like this all over the country, including Santa Fe.

Ranked choice primaries where all registered voters get to vote would eliminate a lot of the fixed races we have been subjected to over the last 100 years.  And gerrymandering would not help a specific party.

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24 minutes ago, OverSword said:

If you're not registered as a party member why should you be allowed to vote in the primaries?  The primaries are for the parties to decide who they will run, it's not a general election.

I see your point there, but I'm still glad it is not that way in the state I live in.   I've never been registered with any party.  I also don't vote for only 1 party.  Especially locally where I may know the people and what they really want to do.  

I voted in the primaries last year.   The first time I have ever done that.  

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4 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Because the primaries are where the candidates are decided.   If you are independent you should still be allowed to vote in the primaries or a primary.

That makes zero sense.  If they allowed anybody to vote in primaries what's to stop republicans from voting for a weak candidate in the democratic primaries?  They only want Democrats to decide who the Democrats will run in the actual election.

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6 minutes ago, Myles said:

I see your point there, but I'm still glad it is not that way in the state I live in.   I've never been registered with any party.  I also don't vote for only 1 party.  Especially locally where I may know the people and what they really want to do.  

I voted in the primaries last year.   The first time I have ever done that.  

Your vote in the primary probably wasn't added to the tally if you weren't registered in the as a democrat.  The primaries are run by the parties independently and they follow their own rules.  The republicans run theirs more democratically than the democrats which is how trump won the primaries.  If the repubs ran theirs the same way as dems, with super delegates, they would have rigged it so trump lost.

Edited by OverSword
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2 minutes ago, Myles said:

I see your point there, but I'm still glad it is not that way in the state I live in.   I've never been registered with any party.  I also don't vote for only 1 party.  Especially locally where I may know the people and what they really want to do.  

I voted in the primaries last year.   The first time I have ever done that.  

In New Mexico you can't vote in a primary unless you are registered with a party.  I have never voted in a primary until 2016 when I registered as a Libertarian just to help them get on the ballot in the state.   I have not changed my registration but I do not consider myself a Libertarian.   The Libertarian party in Texas is a lot more active and gets people elected to local and state positions.  New Mexico is not that progressive but the Libertarians were able to  jump through all the hoops to get on the ballot finally.

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4 minutes ago, OverSword said:

That makes zero sense.  If they allowed anybody to vote in primaries what's to stop republicans from voting for a weak candidate in the democratic primaries?  They only want Democrats to decide who the Democrats will run in the actual election.

The point is why should 40% + voters not get to vote????   You are stuck in the lie that we have a two party system, the lie that has ruined our country.

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3 minutes ago, OverSword said:

Your vote in the primary probably wasn't added to the tally if you weren't registered in the as a democrat.  The primaries are run by the parties independently and they follow their own rules.  The republicans run theirs more democratically than the democrats which is how trump won the primaries.  If the repubs ran theirs the same way as dems, with super delegates, they would have rigged it so trump lost.

They follow their own rules only because the states allow that, check out what Maine has changed and why.

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Just now, Desertrat56 said:

The point is why should 40% + voters not get to vote????   You are stuck in the lie that we have a two party system, the lie that has ruined our country.

Nope.  The parties run their own primaries and they don't even run them the same way.

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Just now, Desertrat56 said:

They follow their own rules only because the states allow that, check out what Maine has changed and why.

Post it I'm not going to look at what Maine has changed, that's needle in a haystack stuff.

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On 1/12/2021 at 2:28 PM, ChrLzs said:

How about we identify the basic problem, and constructively look at ways to rectify it...

First up, I get the strong impression that the main gripe of the aggrieved Republicans is that many believe the elections were rigged.  Yes?

(Let's just totally ignore the fact that audits and recounts have been done, the outcomes have been verified in all states by bi-partisan examiners and that the Courts have rejected all of the claims of any fraud that could have changed any result...)

 

So, tell me, those with a gripe - how would you fix this?  What would satisfy you in regard to an election process?  What isn't or hasn't been done to ensure a correct result?

Or do you simply reject democracy?

 

Before answering, may I suggest (*snip*) that you understand how your election process actually works, including audits and recounts...

Ok, I have not read the thread so I may be repeating some posters.

First, there is no such thing as a perfect fool proof system. Darn near every law and rule written is because some chucklehead tried to play the system.

I firmly believe that an ID should be required. A state issued ID. At no cost.

Part of the bickering about why this can’t happen is two fold. One, it cannot COST to vote in any way. As far as I know, there are no state issued IDs anywhere that are free. Second, due to the first rule, it tends to disenfranchise large groups of people that are homeless, physically disabled and indigent. 
 

My solution is simple and the mechanics are already in place. Every voter registration system I have worked with is able to print voter registration cards. These could be issued to all verified registered voters. 
1. Fill out form to register.

2. Election officials verify eligibility by using state and national databases. (A process that is already in place. )

3. If the registration cannot be verified a “hold” is placed on the registration. A letter is sent to potential voter stating what is needed to complete the registration if possible or stating that they are not eligible to vote.

4. Person trying to register fixes or provides necessary information and gets registered.

5. A Voter ID cards, similar to drivers license is issued.

6. on Election Day people show up to vote. Present the happy little card and vote.

7. If voting by mail, only verified registered voters get mail in ballots. 
 

If voting by mail, before ballot Is opened, the address and signature on the ballot must be verified by a team consisting of both party members must agree that it is valid. Also before ballot is opened, same team must review current voting roles to see if said person has already voted. No one person, unless a certified election official, may bring in more than...5 ballots.

Done, and except for the voter ID cards, this is already the system.

The problem starts with people not following the law. 
 

There is NO perfect system. The system we have is damn good.

Nibs

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Just now, HerNibs said:

Ok, I have not read the thread so I may be repeating some posters.

First, there is no such thing as a perfect fool proof system. Darn near every law and rule written is because some chucklehead tried to play the system.

I firmly believe that an ID should be required. A state issued ID. At no cost.

Part of the bickering about why this can’t happen is two fold. One, it cannot COST to vote in any way. As far as I know, there are no state issued IDs anywhere that are free. Second, due to the first rule, it tends to disenfranchise large groups of people that are homeless, physically disabled and indigent. 
 

My solution is simple and the mechanics are already in place. Every voter registration system I have worked with is able to print voter registration cards. These could be issued to all verified registered voters. 
1. Fill out form to register.

2. Election officials verify eligibility by using state and national databases. (A process that is already in place. )

3. If the registration cannot be verified a “hold” is placed on the registration. A letter is sent to potential voter stating what is needed to complete the registration if possible or stating that they are not eligible to vote.

4. Person trying to register fixes or provides necessary information and gets registered.

5. A Voter ID cards, similar to drivers license is issued.

6. on Election Day people show up to vote. Present the happy little card and vote.

7. If voting by mail, only verified registered voters get mail in ballots. 
 

If voting by mail, before ballot Is opened, the address and signature on the ballot must be verified by a team consisting of both party members must agree that it is valid. Also before ballot is opened, same team must review current voting roles to see if said person has already voted. No one person, unless a certified election official, may bring in more than...5 ballots.

Done, and except for the voter ID cards, this is already the system.

The problem starts with people not following the law. 
 

There is NO perfect system. The system we have is damn good.

Nibs

The whole voter ID discussion is pointless.  All the states we ad issues with this last election had voter ID laws.

That being said, I am leaning towards the idea that you presented.  Maybe it is time that we do a national system.  Everyone is already suing and trying to force their methods and processes onto other states already, so the appetite is there to do it that way.  Register everyone automatically, link it to their social security cards, add a photo, and use that for ID.

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26 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

Because the primaries are where the candidates are decided.   If you are independent you should still be allowed to vote in the primaries or a primary.    Currently there are over 40% of people registered as independent or 3rd party in states that only allow democrats and republicans to vote in primaries.   That means that over 40% of the voters have no vote.  

There are a couple of organizations that are pushing for ranked choice voting so that in the primaries you vote your top five in order of preference. The state of Maine has done this since 2016 and even did it for the 2020 presidential election, many local elections are done like this all over the country, including Santa Fe.

Ranked choice primaries where all registered voters get to vote would eliminate a lot of the fixed races we have been subjected to over the last 100 years.  And gerrymandering would not help a specific party.

This is probably me not being an American - but why should an independent, therefore not a Dem or a Rep, have a vote in who the Dems or Reps run as a candidate?

Or maybe the beef is that other parties should be allowed to have primaries - which yes off course they should if they so wish. 

 

Edited by RAyMO
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On 1/24/2021 at 8:51 AM, joc said:

 The evidence is in the sheer number of mail in votes.  It's called Vote Harvesting dude.   You go to someone's house...ask them if they are going to vote...give them a ballot and tell them they can just mail it in.  Instead of just leaving it at, please vote on voting day and please vote Democrat...it was more like, here's a ballot...all you got to do is fill it in, sign it and mail it...hell...we'll even mail it for you. 

Both sides see what they want to see.  The bottom line is the Goats won over the Sheep.  Now all of you go back to your Collectively Controlled Corrals...nothing else to see here.

I'll be in the woods with the other wolves if you need me to clarify anything else.  Doesn't mean I will though.  I don't really care.

Well, you cant just randomly go grab a handful of ballots and hand them out. 
Ballots are tightly controlled. Only one is issued per registered voter. If that is destroyed or lost, it’s immediately voided and a new one issued. If someone tries to send in a voided ballot all kinds of other checks and verifications kick in.

Just handing some one a ballot (if you manage to get one) isn’t going to work unless you have the correct ballot. With only races that a person is eligible to vote for are on it. All ballots are not the same.

The system isn’t corrupt.

Nibs

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2 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

This is probably me not being an American - but why should an independent, therefore not a Dem or a Rep, have a vote in who the Dems or Reps run as a candidate?

Are maybe the beef is that other parties should be allowed to have primaries - which yes off course they should if they so wish. 

 

It's a bit complicated, but people here can freely change their party.  For instance, I had a Republican representative that was useless and embarrassing (Steve King of IA).  With our primary system, I have two chances to vote against him.  I register as a Republican and vote for someone else to run as candidate for that particular party.  If that fails then I vote again during the actual election for a different party candidate- probably the Democrat one.  Your selected party doesn't influence your vote at all during the actual election.  I can be a Democrat and vote all Republican or vice versa.  But I have to be a member of that particular party for the primary.  Primaries aren't required however- parties can just pick people.  But both parties don't do that method because they don't want to lose voters.

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1 minute ago, Gromdor said:

It's a bit complicated, but people here can freely change their party.  For instance, I had a Republican representative that was useless and embarrassing (Steve King of IA).  With our primary system, I have two chances to vote against him.  I register as a Republican and vote for someone else to run as candidate for that particular party.  If that fails then I vote again during the actual election for a different party candidate- probably the Democrat one.  Your selected party doesn't influence your vote at all during the actual election.  I can be a Democrat and vote all Republican or vice versa.  But I have to be a member of that particular party for the primary.  Primaries aren't required however- parties can just pick people.  But both parties don't do that method because they don't want to lose voters.

So can this happen

A particular Dem who is relatively popular with the local Dems is standing. However said Dem is hated by the local Republicans. So they get together over a pint and register as Dems and vote for someone other than the object of their hatred?

 

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10 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

So can this happen

A particular Dem who is relatively popular with the local Dems is standing. However said Dem is hated by the local Republicans. So they get together over a pint and register as Dems and vote for someone other than the object of their hatred?

 

Yes.  

Edit to add:  There is actually nothing stopping all the Dems from dropping their party and joining the Republicans, changing their platform, and erasing their views.  Migrations like this have happened in the past and the platforms of the two parties have switched over the last hundred years or so.  Republicans used to be the open border, pro-immigration crowd for instance.

Edited by Gromdor
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1 hour ago, RAyMO said:

This is probably me not being an American - but why should an independent, therefore not a Dem or a Rep, have a vote in who the Dems or Reps run as a candidate?

Or maybe the beef is that other parties should be allowed to have primaries - which yes off course they should if they so wish. 

 

Because we do not have a two party system like you do.   And why would one be allowed to register to vote as an independent and then not be allowed to vote in the primary?   It skews everything and in the general election puts people in the position of voting for someone they don't want or not voting.   Just because I don't choose one of the two reprobate parties that are ruining our country should not invalidate my vote.   I am a citizen and I vote in all elections.  But on the federal level I am told I have to "choose the  lesser of two evils", which is total bull*****t.    Our system was designed to eliminate the problems that the crafters of it saw in the UK.   Two party system is an easily corrupted system.  And really, in the UK or where ever you are from, can you say that politics is not run by big money instead of by the people?

Edited by Desertrat56
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This an interesting topic. In my state you can vote in either primary (but only 1) regardless of your party registration.

Last election I voted in the Dem primary even though I'm registered republican.

I voted for the Dem candidate though. 

 

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2 hours ago, RAyMO said:

So can this happen

A particular Dem who is relatively popular with the local Dems is standing. However said Dem is hated by the local Republicans. So they get together over a pint and register as Dems and vote for someone other than the object of their hatred?

 

It's theoretically possible but I don't think it's ever happened to have an effect on any outcomes 

Plus if you vote in one primary than you can't vote in the other. 

Edited by spartan max2
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2 hours ago, Desertrat56 said:

Because we do not have a two party system like you do.   And why would one be allowed to register to vote as an independent and then not be allowed to vote in the primary?   It skews everything and in the general election puts people in the position of voting for someone they don't want or not voting.   Just because I don't choose one of the two reprobate parties that are ruining our country should not invalidate my vote.   I am a citizen and I vote in all elections.  But on the federal level I am told I have to "choose the  lesser of two evils", which is total bull*****t.    Our system was designed to eliminate the problems that the crafters of it saw in the UK.   Two party system is an easily corrupted system.  And really, in the UK or where ever you are from, can you say that politics is not run by big money instead of by the people?

Theoretically we don't have a two party system in the UK. In 2010 I think, we had a hung parliament were the government was made up of a coalition of Tories and the Liberal democrats. 

But it gets complicated, NI Wales and Scotland don't usually vote Tory in any great numbers but because England for the last decade has been tory the UK gets tory governments. 

Were I live Northern Ireland there isn't even a chance to vote Tory or Labour. 

But of the course the big difference is we don't vote for a President or a Prime Minister. The parties internally choose their leader - who will become the prime minister if the party wins the election with a majority of seats. (very simply)

You have to be a party member to vote on the leader, and the parties will at least make some efforts to stop non party members infiltrating such votes. 

Edited by RAyMO
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2 hours ago, spartan max2 said:

This an interesting topic. In my state you can vote in either primary (but only 1) regardless of your party registration.

Last election I voted in the Dem primary even though I'm registered republican.

I voted for the Dem candidate though. 

 

The same is true here.  The primary was held at the same date and the same place for me.  One room of the church was for Democrats and another for Republicans.  The Republicans did the raise hand vote whereas the Democrats did a version of "Red Rosie" where everyone stands in groups and tries to woo the smaller (non-feasible) candidate group's members over till they get a majority.  Can't vote for both because of the time factor.  Probably don't even need to formally switch parties, just go to the appropriate room and vote.

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10 hours ago, OverSword said:

That makes zero sense.  If they allowed anybody to vote in primaries what's to stop republicans from voting for a weak candidate in the democratic primaries?  They only want Democrats to decide who the Democrats will run in the actual election.

This might be the dumbest post from you ever.  Not everything has to be partisan!  Why can't someone vote for who they believe is the best candidate regardless of party?  And if you're an idiot that decides to vote for a weak candidate in another party...you aren't voting for who you believe is the strong candidate.  I believe I have seen you post that their needs to be more than two parties, so for you to say that you don't think someone affiliated with a different party can vote for a differently affiliated candidate in the primaries is baffling to me.

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Politics is dirty business and for some people there are no lengths they won't go to. Regardless here is the official site on the primaries...

https://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/primary-types.aspx

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Free and Fair elections only count when integrity is strictly applied to ensure those who are voting meet the requirements for said election

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10 hours ago, Agent0range said:

This might be the dumbest post from you ever.  Not everything has to be partisan!  Why can't someone vote for who they believe is the best candidate regardless of party?  And if you're an idiot that decides to vote for a weak candidate in another party...you aren't voting for who you believe is the strong candidate.  I believe I have seen you post that their needs to be more than two parties, so for you to say that you don't think someone affiliated with a different party can vote for a differently affiliated candidate in the primaries is baffling to me.

I’ve made much more stupid comments than that, and if you’re seriously asking that question here is something to correct assumptions made by both of us 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.businessinsider.com/which-states-have-open-or-closed-democratic-primaries-2019-11%3famp

Feel free to apologize.

Edited by OverSword
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