The Charlatan in us all...

[Sherapy 29,945]

What do you see in each picture?

Let’s explore the many ways we fool ourselves.

There are no right or wrong answers just an opportunity to join together on a journey.

All thoughts are welcome.

A special thanks to @Desertrat56 and @eight bits @HalfAnIdiotfor your feedback and ideas.

Edited Thursday at 05:37 PM by Sherapy

[eight bits 13,428]

This is something we talked about, and you suggested it be posted here.

The way our percpetual apparatus works. we don't actually experience the world as it is, but in a way that is useful. The visual demonstrations of this never-reality are the most startling (I think because we take the proverb "seeing is believing" to heart), even simple ones, like the Necker Cube.

It is funny even how we react, because unless you're cued to it, the example just looks like a static line drawing of a cube. You probably don't notice the ambiguity until suddenly the objecttively static drawing "flips" and you see the other possible orientation.

You never see any "intermediate form" or a dynamic "turning" version of the cube (one flip succeeds the other, and the back-and-forth will continue sporadically as long as you wish) in part because there is no intermediate form: it's a two dimensional line drawing - there is no 3D object except in your head.

Plus as an added bonus, if you ever did want to see the drawing as it is, a network of line segments, that requires special effort. In other words, for most people, the spontaneous situation is a tug-of-war between two interpretations that simply aren't out there, while what is really out there isn't even a contender (the drawing usually never "collapses" into its 2D form on its own... the visual system just alternates between the two 3D phantasms).

There's a proverb in that about finding the truth requires effort. In the meantime, the nervous system is only too happy to experience and fully accept a convenient lie.

 

Edited Thursday at 06:07 PM by eight bits

[spartan max2 17,354]

What's the other way the book can be seen? I'm assume it's one of those optical illusions 

[Sherapy 29,945]

2 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

What's the other way the book can be seen? I'm assume it's one of those optical illusions 

What is more interesting is how do you see the book? 
 

No trick questions, no right or wrong answers, just an exploration. 

Edited Thursday at 06:24 PM by Sherapy

[spartan max2 17,354]

1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

What is more interesting is how do you see the book? 
 

No trick questions just an exploration. 

I have no idea how to answer that without knowing what the other way to see it is.

Like with the popular optical illusion of the young women or old women. I can't really explain to someone what they are not seeing unless I understand where they are coming from, what they are seeing. 

 

[Sherapy 29,945]

2 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

I have no idea how to answer that without knowing what the other way to see it is.

Like with the popular optical illusion of the young women or old women. I can't really explain to someone what they are not seeing unless I understand where they are coming from, what they are seeing. 

 

Great questions.
 

What kind of book do you see? 
 

It is a picture of a Bible.

Edited Thursday at 06:30 PM by Sherapy

[Desertrat56 19,850]

I have been looking at the first picture for a while.  I get something, but hard to put in to words.  It is symbolic of thoughts, the way we think, what we think about.  The objects coming out of the man's head are all beautiful, though I suppose for some the snake could represent fear.  

The second one I only see a book open on a table with a lit candle.  The shadow suggests the candle it the only light.

The third made me laugh "This is not a pipe"   It is a representation of a pipe. 

What @eight bits said about the cube is something I have thought about.  It is a good example of perspective.

There is a phrase I like to use because reality is not fixed for any of us, it is "current picture of reality", which indicates that we do change our picture of reality and often without even noticing.

[spartan max2 17,354]

2 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Great questions.
 

What kind of book do you see? 
 

It is a picture of a Bible.

Ah okay. I see what you mean now. I was over here trying to find an optical illusion  haha.

I actually didn't. To me it was just an old time book. I never attached the religious association with it.

Edit: now that I think about it I never attached any topic to the book. I just attached it being old. Probably due to the candle light.

Edited Thursday at 06:32 PM by spartan max2

[Sherapy 29,945]

4 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

Ah okay. I see what you mean now. I was over here trying to find an optical illusion  haha.

I actually didn't. To me it was just an old time book. I never attached the religious association with it.

Edit: now that I think about it I never attached any topic to the book. I just attached it being old. Probably due to the candle light.

Very cool, can you expand on the “old” part?

[spartan max2 17,354]

(let me know if I'm going too off topic Sherpay)

But in regards to human perception in general. A fascinating and suprising aspect from when I lost my smell from Covid was that memory of what something smelled like was completely wiped as well.

When I couldn't smell something I also couldn't possible imagine what the smell was like.

Once the sense started coming back smelling everything was remembering it again. Like discovering it as new again. I smelled peanut butter and was like oh my God lol.

Just a weird way our senses work I suppose.

[spartan max2 17,354]

1 minute ago, Sherapy said:

Very cool, can you expand on the “old” part?

A book existing in a time without electricity. 

[Sherapy 29,945]

1 hour ago, eight bits said:

This is something we talked about, and you suggested it be posted here.

The way our percpetual apparatus works. we don't actually experience the world as it is, but in a way that is useful. The visual demonstrations of this never-reality are the most startling (I think because we take the proverb "seeing is believing" to heart), even simple ones, like the Necker Cube.

It is funny even how we react, because unless you're cued to it, the example just looks like a static line drawing of a cube. You probably don't notice the ambiguity until suddenly the objecttively static drawing "flips" and you see the other possible orientation.

You never see any "intermediate form" or a dynamic "turning" version of the cube (one flip succeeds the other, and the back-and-forth will continue sporadically as long as you wish) in part because there is no intermediate form: it's a two dimensional line drawing - there is no 3D object except in your head.

Plus as an added bonus, if you ever did want to see the drawing as it is, a network of line segments, that requires special effort. In other words, for most people, the spontaneous situation is a tug-of-war between two interpretations that simply aren't out there, while what is really out there isn't even a contender (the drawing usually never "collapses" into its 2D form on its own... the visual system just alternates between the two 3D phantasms).

There's a proverb in that about finding the truth requires effort. In the meantime, the nervous system is only too happy to experience and fully accept a convenient lie.

 

I would love your thoughts on “Ode to a Grecian Urn” -Keats 

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44477/ode-on-a-grecian-urn

Specifically the second to last stanza “Beauty is truth, truth beauty - that is all.”

My two cents, leave it to Michael to suggest this poem-  in looking at this through the lens of critical thinking, it tends to showcase how ambiguous and misleading it can be because many times on this quest for truth ( facts in this example ) it’s not and “that is all.” 
 

There can always be “new facts” that come to light. 

 

Edited Thursday at 07:42 PM by Sherapy

[bison 2,894]

I managed to see an intermediate form in the Necker Cube. It's a  flat network of lines, with a tall rectangle at the middle, and includes two right angled triangles, one at the upper left, the other at the lower right. It tends to collapse quickly into either of the two cubes, receding or projecting. 

[Sherapy 29,945]

19 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

(let me know if I'm going too off topic Sherpay)

But in regards to human perception in general. A fascinating and suprising aspect from when I lost my smell from Covid was that memory of what something smelled like was completely wiped as well.

When I couldn't smell something I also couldn't possible imagine what the smell was like.

Once the sense started coming back smelling everything was remembering it again. Like discovering it as new again. I smelled peanut butter and was like oh my God lol.

Just a weird way our senses work I suppose.

Nothing is off topic, please be yourself here. 
 

Wow, that is fascinating. 
 

I have never thought to look at the sense of smell that way. What a great question to ask my employer she is a Neurologist. She will love this one. 

Edited Thursday at 06:59 PM by Sherapy

[Sherapy 29,945]

16 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

A book existing in a time without electricity. 

Interesting. 
 

I love it.

[Desertrat56 19,850]

9 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I would love your thoughts on “Ode to a Grecian Urn” -Keats 

https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poems/44477/ode-on-a-grecian-urn

Specifically the second to last stanza “Beauty is truth, truth beauty - that is all.”

My two cents, leave it to Michael to suggest this-  in looking at this through the lens of critical thinking, it tends to showcase how ambiguous and misleading it can be because many times on this quest for truth ( facts in this example ) it’s not and “that is all.” 
 

There can always be “new facts” that come to light. 

 

Or even new understanding of the facts.  Peices missing that weren't noticed or perspective that was originally lacking.

[spartan max2 17,354]

3 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

Interesting. 
 

I love it.

I assume it's because my subconscious is prejudice to think that no one would ever use a candle to read a book in the dark in the modern area  lol

[L.A.T.1961 1,827]

The book image could have ideas associated with it.

My take, the book is open half way through, this is perhaps indicating that the reader is half way through a journey of some type, life or learning?

The room is dark so moving from the light is perhaps not a good idea, the candle is a product of learning, the development of technology which allows the book to be read at night. 

The book is on a solid table which keeps it steady and easier to read, the table might be used to symbolize previous generations that the present has been built on to reach the enlightened state.  

 

[Sherapy 29,945]

55 minutes ago, Desertrat56 said:

I have been looking at the first picture for a while.  I get something, but hard to put in to words.  It is symbolic of thoughts, the way we think, what we think about.  The objects coming out of the man's head are all beautiful, though I suppose for some the snake could represent fear.  

The second one I only see a book open on a table with a lit candle.  The shadow suggests the candle it the only light.

The third made me laugh "This is not a pipe"   It is a representation of a pipe. 

What @eight bits said about the cube is something I have thought about.  It is a good example of perspective.

There is a phrase I like to use because reality is not fixed for any of us, it is "current picture of reality", which indicates that we do change our picture of reality and often without even noticing.

I was waiting for your thoughts, excellent feedback, thoughts.

The snake and fear is a good connection, I think it is hard wired into us to be afraid of snakes biologically.

For me, the snake represents the fear of questioning authority. 
 

I am not sure if you are a mom, but think about how we our generation was indoctrinated into not questioning.. Some more than others. The snake in Adam and Eve story comes to mind. 

 

Edited Thursday at 07:27 PM by Sherapy

[Bendy Demon 5,153]

Ummm..

1. Freud with stuff comin' outta his head, Butterfly carrying a gem, gem blooming from a plant, juice from pomegranate becoming a gem. Snake on a branch...

2. A book by candle light on a seemingly fairly rough hewn slab of oak serving as a table.

3. Pipe

..I guess....

[Sherapy 29,945]

19 minutes ago, spartan max2 said:

I assume it's because my subconscious is prejudice to think that no one would ever use a candle to read a book in the dark in the modern area  lol

That is quite Freudian and Jungian, lol 

Indeed my add to is we are prejudice towards things and each other at times.  Great point.

Edited Thursday at 07:23 PM by Sherapy

[Sherapy 29,945]

6 minutes ago, Bendy Demon said:

Ummm..

1. Freud with stuff comin' outta his head, Butterfly carrying a gem, gem blooming from a plant, juice from pomegranate becoming a gem. Snake on a branch...

2. A book by candle light on a seemingly fairly rough hewn slab of oak serving as a table.

3. Pipe

..I guess....

Interesting, the point of the Freud picture is we have defense mechanisms that we do not see, but others can. 
 

Not unlike in critical thinking we seek feedback or constructive criticism to refine and see our blind spots.
 

Question: why did you choose bendy demon as your handle?

Edited Thursday at 07:17 PM by Sherapy

[Sherapy 29,945]

16 minutes ago, L.A.T.1961 said:

The book image could have ideas associated with it.

My take, the book is open half way through, this is perhaps indicating that the reader is half way through a journey of some type, life or learning?

The room is dark so moving from the light is perhaps not a good idea, the candle is a product of learning, the development of technology which allows the book to be read at night. 

The book is on a solid table which keeps it steady and easier to read, the table might be used to symbolize previous generations that the present has been built on to reach the enlightened state.  

 

Wow, love this. 

Do you think there is such a thing as an enlightened state and if so what is it and how would you know?
 

 

[spartan max2 17,354]

17 minutes ago, Bendy Demon said:

Ummm..

1. Freud with stuff comin' outta his head, Butterfly carrying a gem, gem blooming from a plant, juice from pomegranate becoming a gem. Snake on a branch...

2. A book by candle light on a seemingly fairly rough hewn slab of oak serving as a table.

3. Pipe

..I guess....

Do you have autism by chance?

I know that's kind of a blunt question . I don't ask in a negative way or anything. I have Asperger's myself.

Just the way you answered those three questions is exactly how I would have done it when I was younger.

Edited Thursday at 07:28 PM by spartan max2

[Desertrat56 19,850]

9 minutes ago, Sherapy said:

I was waiting for your thoughts, excellent feedback, thoughts.

The snake and fear is a good connection, I think it is hard wired into us to be afraid of snakes biologically.

For me, the snake represents the fear of questioning authority. 
 

I am not sure if you are a mom, but think about how we our generation was indoctrinated into not questioning.. Some more than others. The snake in Adam and Eve story comes to mind. 

 

Yes, I am a mom and I tried to teach  my kids to question anything they felt they did not understand or seemed off.   Mainly because of the indoctrination that you mention.  It was more a societal thing than a religious thing.  Females opinions have less weight.   

I am not afraid of snakes, I am afraid of a few kinds of snakes but we had snakes as pets among other critters and if you understand them there is no reason to fear them, though I recognize a lot of people don't have the experience I have but even so, I am not so sure it is a primal fear, but rather a taught fear.   Just like the fear of spiders, if you are taught to identify what type of spider you are looking at it eliminates a lot of fear.