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Davros of Skaro

Rabbi Tovia Singer & Robert Price

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Davros of Skaro

Singer and Price discuss the Bible (humor a bonus).

 

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eight bits

Well done, @Davros of Skaro That was a great pairing.

It is an interesting idea that Paul wasn't really Jewish. @Sherapy asked about the issue the other day. I gave the usual cites where Paul claims emphatically that he was Jewish, and extraordinarily so (Galatians 1:14 and Philippians 3:4-6).

It does help in evaluating such passages that shameless self-promotion wasn't so unusual back then. And Rabbi Singer is correct to caution against combining Paul with Acts. The idea that Paul studied with the iconic Pharisee scholar Gamaliel is not only "questionable," but Paul the author didn't claim it, but rather "Paul" the fictional character in Acts 22:3, speaking in the first person, claimed it.

Even in serious non-fiction histories of the time, it was accepted practice for speeches to be made up by the writer, according to what the author felt would be an appropriate thing for the historical figure to say in the situation. Plus, what Acts's Paul says is "Clintonesque" (so named for Bill, who would say such things as that he'd smoked weed, but didn't inhale):

... brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, instructed according to the strict tradition of the law of our fathers ...

That doesn't quite say "student of Gamaliel," does it?

As to arguing the direct opposite of what Paul himself claims (thus maybe he wasn't Jewish at all or Jewish, but not devout), I liked it that Dr Price and Rabbi Singer both acknowledged the poverty of the available evidence.

One thing they didn't get to, however, is supposing that Paul wasn't a Jew or was only an indifferent Jew, what do they make of the rest of the speech of which Galatians 1:14 is a part? Paul says he was at one time a vigorous persecutor of the Jerusalem assemblies, which in turn is a potential psychologically realistic explanation of his U-turn instant "conversion" experience.

If Paul wasn't motivated by zealous Judaism, what was his motivation for persecuting the assemblies? Or, is that made up, too?

Something for that return visit, maybe?

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Davros of Skaro
1 hour ago, eight bits said:

.One thing they didn't get to, however, is supposing that Paul wasn't a Jew or was only an indifferent Jew, what do they make of the rest of the speech of which Galatians 1:14 is a part? Paul says he was at one time a vigorous persecutor of the Jerusalem assemblies, which in turn is a potential psychologically realistic explanation of his U-turn instant "conversion" experience.

If Paul wasn't motivated by zealous Judaism, what was his motivation for persecuting the assemblies? Or, is that made up, too?

Something for that return visit, maybe?

Yes that was a fun episode. 

From what I know of them:

Price is very open to the radical idea that Paul and all the epistles are made up. 

Singer sees a real Paul manipulating scripture.

You I can see fancying the notion of an historical Simon Magus Wether it has to do with Paul, or not.

Acts to me is complete fiction. Or rather I would trust the Gospels to have historical nuggets over fools gold Acts.

The question to me to ask is how would Paul get away with so much lying when gainsayers are around in one form, or another to do so.

If Paul is fiction, or a veneer for another character they have me fooled.

see with my bold type that I Davros approves of this dictation relayed to brother Crummybutt who also says hello.

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Sherapy
1 hour ago, eight bits said:

Well done, @Davros of Skaro That was a great pairing.

It is an interesting idea that Paul wasn't really Jewish. @Sherapy asked about the issue the other day. I gave the usual cites where Paul claims emphatically that he was Jewish, and extraordinarily so (Galatians 1:14 and Philippians 3:4-6).

It does help in evaluating such passages that shameless self-promotion wasn't so unusual back then. And Rabbi Singer is correct to caution against combining Paul with Acts. The idea that Paul studied with the iconic Pharisee scholar Gamaliel is not only "questionable," but Paul the author didn't claim it, but rather "Paul" the fictional character in Acts 22:3, speaking in the first person, claimed it.

Even in serious non-fiction histories of the time, it was accepted practice for speeches to be made up by the writer, according to what the author felt would be an appropriate thing for the historical figure to say in the situation. Plus, what Acts's Paul says is "Clintonesque" (so named for Bill, who would say such things as that he'd smoked weed, but didn't inhale):

... brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, instructed according to the strict tradition of the law of our fathers ...

That doesn't quite say "student of Gamaliel," does it?

As to arguing the direct opposite of what Paul himself claims (thus maybe he wasn't Jewish at all or Jewish, but not devout), I liked it that Dr Price and Rabbi Singer both acknowledged the poverty of the available evidence.

One thing they didn't get to, however, is supposing that Paul wasn't a Jew or was only an indifferent Jew, what do they make of the rest of the speech of which Galatians 1:14 is a part? Paul says he was at one time a vigorous persecutor of the Jerusalem assemblies, which in turn is a potential psychologically realistic explanation of his U-turn instant "conversion" experience.

If Paul wasn't motivated by zealous Judaism, what was his motivation for persecuting the assemblies? Or, is that made up, too?

Something for that return visit, maybe?

Wow, my you have engaged me on this one. I see a opening of a can of charlatan worms here.:D

Ha ha ha ha on “Clinton smoked but didn’t inhale” pairing. 
 

The insta conversions tales seem to be quite the rage for many moons, eh?

Well done.

Edited by Sherapy
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Sherapy
12 minutes ago, Davros of Skaro said:

Yes that was a fun episode. 

From what I know of them:

Price is very open to the radical idea that Paul and all the epistles are made up. 

Singer sees a real Paul manipulating scripture.

You I can see fancying the notion of an historical Simon Magus Wether it has to do with Paul, or not.

Acts to me is complete fiction. Or rather I would trust the Gospels to have historical nuggets over fools gold Acts.

The question to me to ask is how would Paul get away with so much lying when gainsayers are around in one form, or another to do so.

If Paul is fiction, or a veneer for another character they have me fooled.

see with my bold type that I Davros approves of this dictation relayed to brother Crummybutt who also says hello.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha fun read Darvos. 
 

I love fools gold “Acts”

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jmccr8
12 hours ago, eight bits said:

It is an interesting idea that Paul wasn't really Jewish.

Hi Eight bits

In my youth I was taught that Paul was a Roman and that being a Jew was a religious choice much in the same way Sammy Davis jr  was Jewish so my understanding was that Paul was not Hebrew but was a Roman Jew.

jmccr8

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eight bits
1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

In my youth I was taught that Paul was a Roman and that being a Jew was a religious choice much in the same way Sammy Davis jr  was Jewish so my understanding was that Paul was not Hebrew but was a Roman Jew.

There's more than one version of the Paul backstory, that's for sure.

His version is that he was Jewish by birth (Philippians 3:5)

Quote

circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee

Then along comes a plot development in Acts: he's supposedly a Roman citizen. This saves him from scourging, and ultimately explains how he ends up traveling to Rome for trial (a prerogative of Roman citizens). And it turns out he's a Roman citizen by birth (Acts 22:27-28)

Quote

The commanding officer came and asked him, “Tell me, are you a Roman?” He [Paul] said, “Yes.”
The commanding officer answered, “I bought my citizenship for a great price.” Paul said, “But I was born a Roman.”

It is not impossible to be both Jewish and a Roman citizen at birth. On the other hand, Acts isn't a great source.

Sammy Davis was a convert to Judaism, so it really was a choice for him. Was the story you learned that Paul was a convert (in the OP video, the Ebionites were described as believing that, and further that Paul left Judaism), or more like how anybody born Jewish today might choose to be a secular or otherwise non-observant Jew?

Edited by eight bits
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jmccr8
19 minutes ago, eight bits said:

It is not impossible to be both Jewish and a Roman citizen at birth. On the other hand, Acts isn't a great source.

Sammy Davis was a convert to Judism, so it really was a choice for him. Was the story you learned that Paul was a convert (in the OP video, the Ebionites were described as believing that, and further that Paul left Judaism), or more like how anybody born Jewish today might choose to be a secular or otherwise non-observant Jew?

 Hi Eight bits

Thanks for the reply. Yes I was taught he was a convert but during primary school noticed that much of what I was taught was subjective interpretation of the teacher which was one of several reasons that I came to the conclusion that the bible was a story.

jmccr8

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Will Do

 

Life is a story.

 

 

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jmccr8
25 minutes ago, Will Do said:

 

Life is a story.

 

 

Hi Will

Yes and some people manage to make an encyclopedia of their lives

jmccr8

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Will Do
49 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Will

Yes and some people manage to make an encyclopedia of their lives

jmccr8

 

And even then, there's always more to the story. 

 

 

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