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Are all gods aliens?

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This keeps coming up now and then so lets see where it goes.

The standard construct is that gods are created in the likeness of men which is understandable to see that they are murderous, callous, selfish, jealous blood thirsty beings of abnormal abilities

https://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences/ppecorino/phil_of_religion_text/CHAPTER_1_OVERVIEW/Attributes_of_God.htm#:~:text=In Western (Christian) thought%2C,anything%2C and is perfectly good.

The belief system of the religions of the West holds for monotheism and most are theists as opposed to being pantheists. The attributes of the god of the Western religions are impressive.  There is a problem when considering the entire set of attributes.  There are questions concerning the meaning of some of the features of the deity and definitely problems with a being possessing so many traits at the same time.   Over time the concept of the deity developed by the Israelites, the ONE GOD, has evolved and has taken in the influences of the Zoroastrians in Mesopotamia and then the Greeks and Romans in Europe.   The Greek Philosophers worked with the idea of perfection and the single source of all things as being all perfect and all good. This concept was not associated with the deity of the Hebrews at the time of Moses.  The god or deity of the Jews and then of the Christian and Islamic peoples came to have these characteristics associated with it as every quality thought to be good would need to be in the All Good being to an infinite degree:

Supreme Being

All Just

Eternal Being

All Loving

All Perfect

All Merciful

Beneficent Being- All good

All Kind

All Powerful- Omnipotent

All Charitable

All Knowing- Omniscient

All Forgiving

All Good

All Understanding

All Present- Omnipresent

All Sympathetic

In other words if it is good thing, then the one god of the West was thought to have that feature and to have it to an infinite degree!

PROBLEM: Well the story of the one deity of the Hebrews became inconsistent with a being that was all good and all loving .  Consider these stories of the single deity of the Hebrews and the Atrocities associated with acts of that deity or supported by that deity. http://infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/atrocity.html 

I am using this definition as a standard for discussion purposes

Now if these ancient construct were actually aliens what purpose did they serve and as one member here describes them as powerful alien entities why did they even bother with us as it has been inferred that they have been with us for hundreds of thousands of years and left us freezing our a$$e$ in cold dark caves until we stared seemingly without anyones help creating civilizations then they want us to give them offerings of the best of the crops and herds, children and virgins not to mention ferocious captured warriors all over the world from unrelated cultures and times so that they can teach us to kill each other in their name rape plunder and pillage. So what do they really get out of this deal and what's in it for us?

Interestingly enough in one religion Moses is told to take all the slaves out of Egypt and wander the desert to reach the land of milk and honey unfortunately the slave smelted enough gold to create a lifesize golden calf(did they steal the gold I can't imagine slaves would have that much gold on hand) and for this they must wander until the last offender passes before their children can pass into the promised land. And yet when they get there it's just a blood bath of stealing raping and plundering  the people that they are displacing so I am not really seeing a benevolent race of aliens here

jmccr8

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I am not twisting, and nor am i baiting.

I am doing my damnedest to try and explain   what i know and experience.

I guess you find it too hard to believe, so you think i am baiting or twisting,   but Its true. It is how i see things,   and it is NOT  twisting or baiting 

I've lived with this for almost 60 years now, being connected to the cosmic consciousness,  and with the physical presence of this being for  50.

  I've explained it to you as best i can, and i dont quite understand why you  are upset .   (I guess it offends your own beliefs or opinions . )I assume you dont believe in gods.

Gods are, and always have been, what humans decide are gods.  (Ie  god is a name humans give to a certain category  of beings)

  Ok to you a powerful alien is not a god.

To me it is not either, but to  90% of human beings, that is exactly what a god is.

And there are no other forms of PHYSICAL gods,  although there are thousands of different god constructs imagined by human beings 

Hi Walker

I am not angry it is just that this post and the several preceding ones were derailing another thread and for several months have made an effort not to side-track threads over your positions as it serves no purpose and gets threads shut down.

We are not so different in age so I will see your 60 and raise you 5

Really you have told a story and given nothing for critical review

please read the attributes of a god in the OP and work from there and show me that those are the qualities your alien has which to date you deny but there we are with a list of what defines a god.

jmccr8

 

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Nuclear Wessel

The question presupposes that aliens (in an ET sense) exist, for which we also do not have evidence.

Quote

I am not twisting,

He says, as he turns himself into a pretzel.

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10 minutes ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

The question presupposes that aliens (in an ET sense) exist, for which we also do not have evidence.

He says, as he turns himself into a pretzel.

Hi Nuke

Yes we have no evidence but apparently not everyone agrees so here we are in the twilight zone safely discussing without derailing.:lol:

jmccr8

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third_eye

According to that particular self proclaimed expert and highly acclaimed nut, doesn't it depends on how many boobs they have for him to suckle from? 

~

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Liquid Gardens
1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

To me it is not either, but to  90% of human beings, that is exactly what a god is.

Yea, I didn't understand this, I think it's just not phrased correctly.  Aliens are almost always defined as existing in this universe, and being products of it.  Gods for most theists today are not aliens and the most popular ones are not a product of this universe, and for many actually created it.  I think what he's attempting to say is that when people say they've encountered a god or angel, they are actually encountering Walker's alien and confusing it with a 'real god'.  Too bad his justification for this, 'I KNOW', just splats against a couple billion theists who 'know' he's wrong. Funny how selective Walker is about throwing out the argument 'how arrogant to dismiss the experiences of billions of people' - he has no problem with this argument from popularity when he tries to apply it to non-believers, but he's fine of course with his own arrogance here.

Star Trek: TNG had a good episode that directly addressed this 'what makes a god' and 'what's the diff between a god and super-powered alien' question: Who Watches the Watchers.  Recommended, and I agree with the reasoning they use in this episode for determining what is not a god.  Choice quote:

"Horrifying… Dr. Barron, your report describes how rational these people are. Millennia ago, they abandoned their belief in the supernatural. Now you are asking me to sabotage that achievement, to send them back into the dark ages of superstition and ignorance and fear? No!"

- Picard

Edited by Liquid Gardens
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eight bits

Great idea for a thread, Jay. Why didn't you think of something like this before :P ?

One thing about that list of divine attributes - all the currently popular ones have literary antecedents.

For example, talking pillars of light. Could there have been some literary antecedent, something that its chief prophet might have encountered during adolesence, say?

For example 1967.

 

This may have some relevance to our inquiries.

@Liquid Gardens

Great minds work in parallel.

Edited by eight bits
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Liquid Gardens
8 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Great minds work in parallel.

Capture.JPG.940e5503eb9276d8cbdaaa4a0947609f.JPG

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Guyver

Regarding the OP, yes....all gods would be alien to us since they wouldn’t be able to be like us, having the ability to create self replicating biological machines that function on a ridiculously high level, unless they are some advanced form of bio/tech hybrid A.I. Supercomputers that still retain some elements of what it is to be human, namely.....consciousness.

I do agree with the OP that the attributes assigned to “gods” and namely the Hebrew God embraced by the west, are counterintuitive and contradictory.  So, for example, God being all loving, just and merciful is directly in conflict with the other side of the Hebrew God which is.....I’m going to kill and torture all humans except for the ones I want to take to heaven.  The killing of a failed experiment, I get.  The keeping of people alive for eternity to be tortured in flames continually?  NO.  Not loving, not just, not kind.  IMO.
 

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47 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Yea, I didn't understand this, I think it's just not phrased correctly.  Aliens are almost always defined as existing in this universe, and being products of it.  Gods for most theists today are not aliens and the most popular ones are not a product of this universe, and for many actually created it.  I think what he's attempting to say is that when people say they've encountered a god or angel, they are actually encountering Walker's alien and confusing it with a 'real god'.  Too bad his justification for this, 'I KNOW', just splats against a couple billion theists who 'know' he's wrong. Funny how selective Walker is about throwing out the argument 'how arrogant to dismiss the experiences of billions of people' - he has no problem with this argument from popularity when he tries to apply it to non-believers, but he's fine of course with his own arrogance here.

Star Trek: TNG had a good episode that directly addressed this 'what makes a god' and 'what's the diff between a god and super-powered alien' question: Who Watches the Watchers.  Recommended, and I agree with the reasoning they use in this episode for determining what is not a god.  Choice quote:

"Horrifying… Dr. Barron, your report describes how rational these people are. Millennia ago, they abandoned their belief in the supernatural. Now you are asking me to sabotage that achievement, to send them back into the dark ages of superstition and ignorance and fear? No!"

- Picard

Hi Liquid Gardens

the part you quoted was Walker’s post from the other thread and not my position. :D

jmccr8

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papageorge1

I think what we are seeing is an evolution of man's understanding of God. Some of the stories of the ancient Jews may not resonate well with us in the 21st century. I see rapid movement just in my lifetime towards 'spiritual but not religious' and eastern non-dual (God and creation are not-two) pantheistic positions. I think these movements are both positive evolutionary steps from the dominant Christian stronghold with its attachment to ancient Judaic scriptures.

It also sometimes seems the atheist-materialist minded want to pin religion to its past and bring up parts of ancient scriptures that do not accord well with modern reasoning. Those of us that are moving forward are not pinned to any set in stone beliefs.

Also as to the question 'Are all gods aliens?', you would have to define 'aliens'. As a follower of non-dual Hindu pantheistic philosophy myself (Advaita), Brahman/God is something beyond attributes. Although I believe there can be gods (lower case 'g') that can be considered benevolent aliens meant to advance the human condition. They are alien as they are not among the class of normal humans. They may come from higher spiritual planes and even have associations with other planets.

Edited by papageorge1
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58 minutes ago, eight bits said:

Great idea for a thread, Jay. Why didn't you think of something like this before :P ?

Hi Eight bits

 sometimes I'm a little slow on the upbeat.:lol:

1 hour ago, eight bits said:

One thing about that list of divine attributes - all the currently popular ones have literary antecedents.

For example, talking pillars of light. Could there have been some literary antecedent, something that its chief prophet might have encountered during adolesence, say?

For example 1967.

Yes there was a talking burning bush the first time Moses climbed the mountain but not sure if that bush was burning the second time after the stones got dropped.:lol:

But if we go by another description of a bright light with a door and no voice and just dogs as witnesses so not sure if that is comparable.

jmccr8

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10 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

I think what we are seeing is an evolution of man's understanding of God. Some of the stories of the ancient Jews may not resonate well with us in the 21st century. I see rapid movement just in my lifetime towards 'spiritual but not religious' and eastern non-dual (God and creation are not-two) pantheistic positions. I think these movements are both positive evolutionary steps from the dominant Christian stronghold with its attachment to ancient Judaic scriptures.

It also sometimes seems the atheist-materialist minded want to pin religion to its past and bring up parts of ancient scriptures that do not accord well with modern reasoning. Those of us that are moving forward are not pinned to any set in stone beliefs.

Also as to the question 'Are all gods aliens?', you would have to define 'aliens'. As a follower of non-dual Hindu pantheistic philosophy myself (Advaita), Brahman/God is something beyond attributes. Although I believe there can be gods (lower case 'g') that can be considered benevolent aliens meant to advance the human condition. They are alien as they are not among the class of normal humans. They may come from higher spiritual planes and even have associations with other planets.

Hi Papa

And just what specifically were these advancements? To me aliens are just another form of us nothing special or unique.

jmccr8

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Liquid Gardens
20 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Liquid Gardens

the part you quoted was Walker’s post from the other thread and not my position. :D

jmccr8

Totally understood!  "I've lived with this for almost 60 years now, being connected to the cosmic consciousness,  and with the physical presence of this being for  50" and especially "(I guess it offends your own beliefs or opinions . )" were dead give-aways.

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1 minute ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Totally understood!  "I've lived with this for almost 60 years now, being connected to the cosmic consciousness,  and with the physical presence of this being for  50" and especially "(I guess it offends your own beliefs or opinions . )" were dead give-aways.

Hi Liquid Gardens

All out of likes for some reason<_<

Thanks:D

jmccr8

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Liquid Gardens
17 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

It also sometimes seems the atheist-materialist minded want to pin religion to its past and bring up parts of ancient scriptures that do not accord well with modern reasoning. 

...because millions of people still believe parts of ancient scriptures that do not accord well with modern reasoning. 

 

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papageorge1
12 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Papa

And just what specifically were these advancements?

The advancement is a higher level of religious/spiritual understanding than current at the time of their appearance. For example the promulgation of 'love for all' over doctrines of submission and obedience.

16 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

To me aliens are just another form of us nothing special or unique.

To me aliens are not a product of the normal earthly human realm.

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papageorge1
11 minutes ago, Liquid Gardens said:

...because millions of people still believe parts of ancient scriptures that do not accord well with modern reasoning. 

 

I understand but my point was there is no need to pin these beliefs on modern religious/spiritual people. I'm not sure we disagree. The OP was asking about 'all gods' and then bringing up examples of the Judaic God as some believed a few thousand years ago.

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Liquid Gardens
19 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

I understand but my point was there is no need to pin these beliefs on modern religious/spiritual people. I'm not sure we disagree. The OP was asking about 'all gods' and then bringing up examples of the Judaic God as some believed a few thousand years ago.

I don't think materialist/atheists 'pin' these beliefs on modern spiritual people.  If the shoe doesn't fit, you don't have to wear it.  I haven't heard (although it's implied frequently) anything in these supposedly 'advanced' modern spiritual beliefs that eludes the typical 'atheist/materialist' arguments.

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55 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

The advancement is a higher level of religious/spiritual understanding than current at the time of their appearance. For example the promulgation of 'love for all' over doctrines of submission and obedience.

Hi Papa

Not sure that you are clear on the premise of the thread As some(one) claimed that aliens have been involved with us since the first god construct supposedly a couple of hundred thousand years ago so seemly we have a fair bit of time where they didn't do anything for humanity as evidence shows we lived in cave and dealt with a diverse range of large dangerous predators and got no help as there is a clear path of evidence that shows how humans made it to creating civilizations before making an hypothetical known appearance and still the evidence is clear that we got here from there without any noticeable influence by higher tech cultures from other planets. Adapted mythologies don't work.

1 hour ago, papageorge1 said:

To me aliens are not a product of the normal earthly human realm.

They are evolved biological units the same as us with possible higher advanced tech which is a time evolved matter and does not create an expectation of special powers as described in the link in the OP which is the definition we are using in this thread.

jccr8

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59 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

I understand but my point was there is no need to pin these beliefs on modern religious/spiritual people. I'm not sure we disagree. The OP was asking about 'all gods' and then bringing up examples of the Judaic God as some believed a few thousand years ago.

Hi Papa

 My position in this thread is that gods do not exist and are human constructs that have no physical, intellective qualities period as they are imaginings of man which is why they are described with human qualities and that aliens may have human qualities but not the qualities of gods as described in the OP.

jmccr8

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1 hour ago, papageorge1 said:

'all gods' and then bringing up examples of the Judaic God as some believed a few thousand years ago

Hi Papa

And here we are a couple thousand years later and it is the predominate construct of god and not so vastly different than it's Muslim counter-part which is as equally popular so still a relevant description for our purposes in this thread

jmccr8

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4 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

Interestingly enough in one religion Moses is told to take all the slaves out of Egypt and wander the desert to reach the land of milk and honey unfortunately the slave smelted enough gold to create a lifesize golden calf(did they steal the gold I can't imagine slaves would have that much gold on hand) and for this they must wander until the last offender passes before their children can pass into the promised land. And yet when they get there it's just a blood bath of stealing raping and plundering  the people that they are displacing so I am not really seeing a benevolent race of aliens here

I forgot to add this as well seeing as how some think Jesus was an alien as well then was his blood sacrifice given for our transgressions or was it an offering to man for their transgressions against us? If the latter then it falls short of the blood spilt by humans for gods.

jmccr8

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eight bits
2 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

But if we go by another description of a bright light with a door and no voice

Oh that's too easy - as introduced in 1963:

I didn't get the sense that the door was a divinity. The Star Trek pillar of light, though, has a divine provenance (the nymph Calypso in the Odyssey similarly holds the voyager Odysseus on account of love. She offers him immortality if he'll stay with her. He declines the offer) and at least one divine epithet, remover of obstacles. That's in use today in India for Ganesha. The Prophet Walker speaks of his pillar removing addiction.

Edited by eight bits
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Just now, eight bits said:

Oh that's too easy - as introduced in 1963:

https://youtu.be/ORbseYAkzRM

I didn't get the sense that the door was a divinity. The Star Trek pillar of light, though, has a divine provenance (the nymph Calypso in the Odyssey similarly holds the voyager Odysseus on account of love. She offers him immortality if he'll stay with her. He declines the offer) and at least one divine epithet, remover of obstacles. That's in use today in India for Ganesha. The Prophet Walker speaks of his pillar removing addiction.

Hi Eight bits 

Still no likes but great point.:tu:

Walker's first experience with the light that had no door is the one that spoke to him and and told him that he was healed from smoking the second time the light with the doorway said/did nothing but freak him out

I do have to wonder with his first experience why this alien god chose to heal his smoking when he has admitted that he was getting stoned, drunk and partying at orgies so do wonder as to how this alien prioritizes.:whistle:

jmccr8

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