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Are all gods aliens?

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papageorge1
1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Papa

Not sure that you are clear on the premise of the thread As some(one) claimed that aliens have been involved with us since the first god construct supposedly a couple of hundred thousand years ago so seemly we have a fair bit of time where they didn't do anything for humanity as evidence shows we lived in cave and dealt with a diverse range of large dangerous predators and got no help as there is a clear path of evidence that shows how humans made it to creating civilizations before making an hypothetical known appearance and still the evidence is clear that we got here from there without any noticeable influence by higher tech cultures from other planets. Adapted mythologies don't work.

As this thread came from another discussion I was not clear on what the OP was about. I am also one of those believers that aliens have been involved in human history. I think although they have higher technology but the earth and its challenges is a learning place for them and us. I think higher civilizations than exist today once existed (Atlantis for example) that crashed and forced a reboot of humanity. I think the DNA of modern humans and ancient now lost technologies came with alien assistance. 

Seems like I'm more in line with the person you are trying to refute. Not surprisingly.

 

Edited by papageorge1

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papageorge1
1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Papa

 My position in this thread is that gods do not exist and are human constructs that have no physical, intellective qualities period as they are imaginings of man which is why they are described with human qualities and that aliens may have human qualities but not the qualities of gods as described in the OP.

jmccr8

I think these aliens may have shown such advancement over humanity that the term  'gods' could be used for them. I guess we need a working definition of the word 'god' here.

  1. (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.
    "a moon god" · 
    synonyms:
    deity · goddess · divine being · celestial being · supreme being · divinity · immortal · creator · demiurge · godhead · daemon · numen · avatar
  2. an adored, admired, or influential person.
    "he has little time for the fashion victims for whom he is a god"
Edited by papageorge1

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21 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

As this thread came from another discussion I was not clear on what the OP was about. I am also one of those believers that aliens have been involved in human history. I think although they have higher technology but the earth and its challenges is a learning place for them and us. I think higher civilizations than exist today once existed (Atlantis for example) that crashed and forced a reboot of humanity. I think the DNA of modern humans and ancient now lost technologies came with alien assistance. 

Seems like I'm more in line with the person you are trying to refute. Not surprisingly.

 

Hi Papa

Well okay if you think so but really there is a stark difference between your construct and the main contender who has not yet made an appearance but stay tuned as we have quite the play list on this station yet to be heard.

Not saying your input isn't relative but to hit on a couple of points that stick out in your brief presentation, where is the(any) evidence that shows that there have been more advanced civilizations on Earth? What we do know is that here is a consistent flow of development for hundreds of thousands of years that have been observed studied and documented hat do not show the anomalies that you are putting forward.

Atlantis well what can I say, if they existed and spanned the Med as fiction tells us then there should be more archeological evidence of their presence in Europe or the Med, N Africa and yet there are no weapons, pottery, ships nada so they must have been OCD about picking up after themselves as there is nothing to show that they were in any of those locations nor are they recorded outside of Plato.

jmccr8

Edited by jmccr8
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papageorge1
1 hour ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Papa

And here we are a couple thousand years later and it is the predominate construct of god and not so vastly different than it's Muslim counter-part which is as equally popular so still a relevant description for our purposes in this thread

jmccr8

Still not really clear on what we are supposed to be discussing but I would not consider the Abrahamic God to be alien. So as to the question 'Are all gods alien?', I would say 'No' but some are.

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5 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

I think these aliens may have shown such advancement over humanity that the term  'gods' could be used for them. I guess we need a working definition of the word 'god' here.

  1. (in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshiped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.
    "a moon god" · 
    synonyms:
    deity · goddess · divine being · celestial being · supreme being · divinity · immortal · creator · demiurge · godhead · daemon · numen · avatar
  2. an adored, admired, or influential person.
    "he has little time for the fashion victims for whom he is a god"

Hi Papa

I laid out the definition of attributes n the OP and that is what we are working with for the investigation of this thread.

jmccr8

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Just now, papageorge1 said:

Still not really clear on what we are supposed to be discussing but I would not consider the Abrahamic God to be alien. So as to the question 'Are all gods alien?', I would say 'No' but some are.

Hi Papa

Well we have 2 options

A. They are a fabrication

B. They are alien

jmccr8

 

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papageorge1
3 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Papa

I laid out the definition of attributes n the OP and that is what we are working with for the investigation of this thread.

jmccr8

Still confused. Are we supposed to be talking about alien gods, attributes of Judeo-Christian God or some combination of the two?

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papageorge1
1 minute ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Papa

Well we have 2 options

A. They are a fabrication

B. They are alien

jmccr8

 

Please clarify your use of the word 'They' in the two choices.

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6 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Please clarify your use of the word 'They' in the two choices.

 Hi Papa

Sorry we were talking about calypso dancers and aliens who do you think I am referring to? They refer to, the descriptions of gods as outlined in the OP as the attributes of gods either they are fiction created by man or aliens that is the only 2 options presented in the OP.:huh:

jmccr8

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Tatetopa

Interesting thread, I am still working through it.

One idea that has come up several times and is certainly present in a lot of writing on this subject is the source of concepts or beliefs.  Sorry if I am unclear on this, I am not sure I can explain it well..

It seems to me that a mechanism that has helped humans survive is the ability to link cause and effect in the environment; movement in the grass with an unseen predator for example.

Then a secondary mechanism come into place to filter out some occurrences like grass movement linked to perceptible wind for example.

Now I wonder if additional capacity in our brains developed to devote processing time and brain energy to questions that may have no immediate implications but may be useful longer term.  What causes wind might be an example of that.

I am positing yet another capability of the human brain which is the "fill in the blank in the story"  function.  Breath is like wind, wind therefore might be breath of something; fill in the blank with your mind.

You don't need to see that animal or god of wind, Zephyrus  to create that story in your mind.

So the gist of it becomes the origin of beliefs.  Do we need an alien or a god or something external to ourselves to create that belief or does it originate within the mechanism of our own brains?

I will leave myself a little escape hatch.

There is yet a universe full of things we have not observed or may not have imagined. Whether we have created a simulacrum of them in our brains or not has no bearing on their existence

So there could be gods or aliens out there, I have just not pulled them into my fill-in-the-blank narrative..

 

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papageorge1
Just now, jmccr8 said:

 Hi Papa

Sorry we were talking about calypso dancers and aliens who do you think I am referring to? They refer to, the descriptions of gods as outline in the attributes of gods either they are fiction created by man or aliens that is the only 2 options presented in the OP.:huh:

jmccr8

Are you saying gods (with a lower case 'g') are supposed to have all those attributes traditionally associated with the Judeo-Christian God (upper case 'G")?

And then you bring up 'aliens'. And then you talked about how the God of the Old Testament fails those qualities?

I think you are just being snippy and evasive because you can't clarify your OP topic because it is not very coherent.

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2 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Interesting thread, I am still working through it.

One idea that has come up several times and is certainly present in a lot of writing on this subject is the source of concepts or beliefs.  Sorry if I am unclear on this, I am not sure I can explain it well..

It seems to me that a mechanism that has helped humans survive is the ability to link cause and effect in the environment; movement in the grass with an unseen predator for example.

Then a secondary mechanism come into place to filter out some occurrences like grass movement linked to perceptible wind for example.

Now I wonder if additional capacity in our brains developed to devote processing time and brain energy to questions that may have no immediate implications but may be useful longer term.  What causes wind might be an example of that.

I am positing yet another capability of the human brain which is the "fill in the blank in the story"  function.  Breath is like wind, wind therefore might be breath of something; fill in the blank with your mind.

You don't need to see that animal or god of wind, Zephyrus  to create that story in your mind.

So the gist of it becomes the origin of beliefs.  Do we need an alien or a god or something external to ourselves to create that belief or does it originate within the mechanism of our own brains?

I will leave myself a little escape hatch.

There is yet a universe full of things we have not observed or may not have imagined. Whether we have created a simulacrum of them in our brains or not has no bearing on their existence

So there could be gods or aliens out there, I have just not pulled them into my fill-in-the-blank narrative..

 

Hi Tatetopa

Am out of like presently but thanks for joining in. For discussion purposes I set this up as either gods are fictional characters created by man just as you have pointed out and aliens which we know have the potential to exist but there is no evidence for them impacting us or our development so in a sense the effect of the idea is what I am looking at. I am not saying that a god cannot exist but at this time there is no more evidence of their personal input just the same as the alien variety of gods so far they are both fictional with no physical impact as an entity that has the attributes outlined in the OP.

jmccr8

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8 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

Are you saying gods (with a lower case 'g') are supposed to have all those attributes traditionally associated with the Judeo-Christian God (upper case 'G")?

And then you bring up 'aliens'. And then you talked about how the God of the Old Testament fails those qualities?

I think you are just being snippy and evasive because you can't clarify your OP topic because it is not very coherent.

Hi Papa

Lower/ upper is not difference and the big g is in the mix. What I have put forward as a discussion topic isn't a mystery and clearly defined in the OP so not sure what you are having problems with.

jmccr8

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Sherapy
18 minutes ago, Tatetopa said:

Interesting thread, I am still working through it.

One idea that has come up several times and is certainly present in a lot of writing on this subject is the source of concepts or beliefs.  Sorry if I am unclear on this, I am not sure I can explain it well..

It seems to me that a mechanism that has helped humans survive is the ability to link cause and effect in the environment; movement in the grass with an unseen predator for example.

Then a secondary mechanism come into place to filter out some occurrences like grass movement linked to perceptible wind for example.

Now I wonder if additional capacity in our brains developed to devote processing time and brain energy to questions that may have no immediate implications but may be useful longer term.  What causes wind might be an example of that.

I am positing yet another capability of the human brain which is the "fill in the blank in the story"  function.  Breath is like wind, wind therefore might be breath of something; fill in the blank with your mind.

You don't need to see that animal or god of wind, Zephyrus  to create that story in your mind.

So the gist of it becomes the origin of beliefs.  Do we need an alien or a god or something external to ourselves to create that belief or does it originate within the mechanism of our own brains?

I will leave myself a little escape hatch.

There is yet a universe full of things we have not observed or may not have imagined. Whether we have created a simulacrum of them in our brains or not has no bearing on their existence

So there could be gods or aliens out there, I have just not pulled them into my fill-in-the-blank narrative..

 

I might be able to help on this my employer is a Neurologist I will ask her. An interesting aside, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy uses the brains plasticity to create narratives that help us change our minds quickly and easily. 

Edited by Sherapy
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papageorge1
5 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Papa

Lower/ upper is not difference and the big g is in the mix. What I have put forward as a discussion topic isn't a mystery and clearly defined in the OP so not sure what you are having problems with.

jmccr8

As to the little 'g' ones, I think some were likely aliens. As to the big 'G' I think the traditional understanding needs refining. 

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5 minutes ago, papageorge1 said:

As to the little 'g' ones, I think some were likely aliens. As to the big 'G' I think the traditional understanding needs refining. 

Hi Papa

Thanks that's fine but not sure what you need to refine the attributes of god are in the link in the first post and the premise is all gods are imaginary small or large g or they are all aliens. If there was a big g god then that god would have created aliens as well so not sure big g would like the competition and likely wouuld have been a cosmic smack-down.

Do you have a hard time coloring between the lines?

jmccr8

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papageorge1
1 minute ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Papa

Thanks that's fine but not sure what you need to refine the attributes of god are in the link in the first post and the premise is all gods are imaginary small or large g or they are all aliens. If there was a big g god then that god would have created aliens as well so not sure big g would like the competition and likely wouuld have been a cosmic smack-down.

Do you have a hard time coloring between the lines?

jmccr8

As I said earlier in this thread I am a follower of non-dual (Brahman/God and creation are not-two) Hindu philosophy called Advaita. Now the Abrahamic God concept is not exactly correct but I wouldn't call it 'fiction' either. More like an inaccurate understanding.

I do believe in aliens and their involvement with human progress and some of these beings were likely considered gods to humans.

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Essan

Originally, all gods were anthropomorphisms of nature

Later they came to mean and be different things to different people according to need.

If people today see gods as aliens it's because they have a need to believe that alien gods exist.   It does not mean alien gods exist ;) 

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Mr Walker
11 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

This keeps coming up now and then so lets see where it goes.

The standard construct is that gods are created in the likeness of men which is understandable to see that they are murderous, callous, selfish, jealous blood thirsty beings of abnormal abilities

https://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialsciences/ppecorino/phil_of_religion_text/CHAPTER_1_OVERVIEW/Attributes_of_God.htm#:~:text=In Western (Christian) thought%2C,anything%2C and is perfectly good.

The belief system of the religions of the West holds for monotheism and most are theists as opposed to being pantheists. The attributes of the god of the Western religions are impressive.  There is a problem when considering the entire set of attributes.  There are questions concerning the meaning of some of the features of the deity and definitely problems with a being possessing so many traits at the same time.   Over time the concept of the deity developed by the Israelites, the ONE GOD, has evolved and has taken in the influences of the Zoroastrians in Mesopotamia and then the Greeks and Romans in Europe.   The Greek Philosophers worked with the idea of perfection and the single source of all things as being all perfect and all good. This concept was not associated with the deity of the Hebrews at the time of Moses.  The god or deity of the Jews and then of the Christian and Islamic peoples came to have these characteristics associated with it as every quality thought to be good would need to be in the All Good being to an infinite degree:

Supreme Being

All Just

Eternal Being

All Loving

All Perfect

All Merciful

Beneficent Being- All good

All Kind

All Powerful- Omnipotent

All Charitable

All Knowing- Omniscient

All Forgiving

All Good

All Understanding

All Present- Omnipresent

All Sympathetic

In other words if it is good thing, then the one god of the West was thought to have that feature and to have it to an infinite degree!

PROBLEM: Well the story of the one deity of the Hebrews became inconsistent with a being that was all good and all loving .  Consider these stories of the single deity of the Hebrews and the Atrocities associated with acts of that deity or supported by that deity. http://infidels.org/library/modern/donald_morgan/atrocity.html 

I am using this definition as a standard for discussion purposes

Now if these ancient construct were actually aliens what purpose did they serve and as one member here describes them as powerful alien entities why did they even bother with us as it has been inferred that they have been with us for hundreds of thousands of years and left us freezing our a$$e$ in cold dark caves until we stared seemingly without anyones help creating civilizations then they want us to give them offerings of the best of the crops and herds, children and virgins not to mention ferocious captured warriors all over the world from unrelated cultures and times so that they can teach us to kill each other in their name rape plunder and pillage. So what do they really get out of this deal and what's in it for us?

Interestingly enough in one religion Moses is told to take all the slaves out of Egypt and wander the desert to reach the land of milk and honey unfortunately the slave smelted enough gold to create a lifesize golden calf(did they steal the gold I can't imagine slaves would have that much gold on hand) and for this they must wander until the last offender passes before their children can pass into the promised land. And yet when they get there it's just a blood bath of stealing raping and plundering  the people that they are displacing so I am not really seeing a benevolent race of aliens here

jmccr8

Two  potential types  of gods

Those we construct in our minds

(these often epitomise both the best and worst qualities of a human being) 

Independent physical entities   with god like powers or technologies 

These are what the y are, and our opinion/perception of them doesn't alter who/what the y are  Once upon a time some gods were seen as human or semi human and some completely alien 

Today, with our knowledge of the world, it is hard to believe in human beings who are gods, but its still logically possible  to believe in powerful alien gods like the  Christian god 

We create all sorts of theologies around both types of gods 

That is all we can do with constructed gods, but with real ones we can observe them, learn about them, judge how they connect, and relate to us and to others 

I do not accept that there is a "standard" construct of gods Certainly the Hebrew version has dominated the world for a millennia or so, But before that and outside it, there have been thousands of different types of gods   Modern human without knoldge of history or anthropology tend not to think about all those other gods, yet   people followed them, and many still do.

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Mr Walker
11 hours ago, jmccr8 said:

I am not twisting, and nor am i baiting.

I am doing my damnedest to try and explain   what i know and experience.

I guess you find it too hard to believe, so you think i am baiting or twisting,   but Its true. It is how i see things,   and it is NOT  twisting or baiting 

I've lived with this for almost 60 years now, being connected to the cosmic consciousness,  and with the physical presence of this being for  50.

  I've explained it to you as best i can, and i dont quite understand why you  are upset .   (I guess it offends your own beliefs or opinions . )I assume you dont believe in gods.

Gods are, and always have been, what humans decide are gods.  (Ie  god is a name humans give to a certain category  of beings)

  Ok to you a powerful alien is not a god.

To me it is not either, but to  90% of human beings, that is exactly what a god is.

And there are no other forms of PHYSICAL gods,  although there are thousands of different god constructs imagined by human beings 

Hi Walker

I am not angry it is just that this post and the several preceding ones were derailing another thread and for several months have made an effort not to side-track threads over your positions as it serves no purpose and gets threads shut down.

We are not so different in age so I will see your 60 and raise you 5

Really you have told a story and given nothing for critical review

please read the attributes of a god in the OP and work from there and show me that those are the qualities your alien has which to date you deny but there we are with a list of what defines a god.

jmccr8

 

I dont accept that a god (either an artificial thought construct or a real being)  has to have such attributes. 

Did Thor have them all?

Did Anubis have them all? 

Did gods of water fire earth etc have them all ?

Poseidon Artemis Demeter.?

Venus Apollo Mercury ?

The Chinese, alone, have hundreds of gods  Some, but by no means all, fit some of the attributes you gave 

Look at the meso american gods  or the Polynesian gods, or the  gods of the African continent 

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Mr Walker
10 hours ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

The question presupposes that aliens (in an ET sense) exist, for which we also do not have evidence.

He says, as he turns himself into a pretzel.

You may not have evidence, but you cant say that "we "do not have evidences :) 

IMO a real god is an evolved sentient being. 

To qualify as a god, it must; 

Have powers we consider god like eg being able to raise the dead would be a good example :) 

Have an interest in or connection with those to whom it is a god 

ie there may be many "god- like" beings in the galaxy who are not interested in us and thus are not our gods  Our gods might have "gods" of there own eg even more advanced beings.  wemay wellbecome gods to other animals as the y evolve the self  aware consciousness and language to formulate the conception of a god.

  "god" is like "dog"

  ie It is just a label (English speaking) humans   use to describe a certain classification of being 

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godnodog
11 hours ago, Nuclear Wessel said:

The question presupposes that aliens (in an ET sense) exist, for which we also do not have evidence.

 

true, but we can infer their existence by using our existence as evidence/hint.

is there life in the universe? answer is 100% yes  and easely proven

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Mr Walker
10 hours ago, Liquid Gardens said:

Yea, I didn't understand this, I think it's just not phrased correctly.  Aliens are almost always defined as existing in this universe, and being products of it.  Gods for most theists today are not aliens and the most popular ones are not a product of this universe, and for many actually created it.  I think what he's attempting to say is that when people say they've encountered a god or angel, they are actually encountering Walker's alien and confusing it with a 'real god'.  Too bad his justification for this, 'I KNOW', just splats against a couple billion theists who 'know' he's wrong. Funny how selective Walker is about throwing out the argument 'how arrogant to dismiss the experiences of billions of people' - he has no problem with this argument from popularity when he tries to apply it to non-believers, but he's fine of course with his own arrogance here.

Star Trek: TNG had a good episode that directly addressed this 'what makes a god' and 'what's the diff between a god and super-powered alien' question: Who Watches the Watchers.  Recommended, and I agree with the reasoning they use in this episode for determining what is not a god.  Choice quote:

"Horrifying… Dr. Barron, your report describes how rational these people are. Millennia ago, they abandoned their belief in the supernatural. Now you are asking me to sabotage that achievement, to send them back into the dark ages of superstition and ignorance and fear? No!"

- Picard

Aliens are nonhumans, thus gods of any type, other than human beings, are, by defintion, alien 

Hypothetically they could have created this universe, but tha t poses many other unanswerable questions. it is much more likely  that real physical gods   are evoved products OF this universe  

No theist actually argues against god being an alien being  (except thoise who argue for it being a human being)

 Some argue  that their version  is omnipotent omniscient and created the universe in 7 days, but not many in modern times. 

Idont KNOW wht "god " is.

I make an educated guess based on the evidences available to me  but i KNOW it is real, physical powerful and protective  That's a difernt quality to believing, or having faith, in its existence 

star trek from  the beginning asked questions like this Ive watched every episode of the original series a few times and most of the follow up series and movies 

It also deliberately looked a t one of the other questions which intrigues me Ie should humans act on emotion or logic ?

Ps In my experience "god" is bound by a form of non intervention  code like that posited in star trek  This makes me think that god is an agent of a wider form of governance OR it is a code  ":god" has  adopted to allow  species to survive  and evolve without intervention  ie we live or die as a species on the decisions we make.

god may help to educate us, but not intervene on a species level.

It MAY intervene on an individual level. 

 

 

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Mr Walker
6 hours ago, papageorge1 said:

Still not really clear on what we are supposed to be discussing but I would not consider the Abrahamic God to be alien. So as to the question 'Are all gods alien?', I would say 'No' but some are.

just a query.

In your mind, is the Abrahamic  god a human being, then? 

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22 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Two  potential types  of gods

Those we construct in our minds

(these often epitomise both the best and worst qualities of a human being) 

Independent physical entities   with god like powers or technologies 

Hi Walker

To date there has been no physical evidence for a god and I mean critical evidence that can be measured so that would indicate that all gods are a construct of the mind. Yes because they are imaginary beings they do have some qualities of their creator(man) so they are identifiable to the human psyche.

Having tech do not make one a god just in a better position to enforce will and tech is also a human construct that is viable and adaptive with no personality.

28 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

These are what the y are, and our opinion/perception of them doesn't alter who/what the y are  Once upon a time some gods were seen as human or semi human and some completely alien 

Who's our and why would you assume this is a valid argument when there are so many that disagree with you so think it is your opinion/perception that is being questioned. I created this thread so that we can explore you perspective. I don't see humans as gods and never will and see aliens as others like us so do not see them as gods either. What is semi human a man with 18 wheels there are no confirmed alien/human hybrids so where are you coming from with this?

36 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

Today, with our knowledge of the world, it is hard to believe in human beings who are gods, but its still logically possible  to believe in powerful alien gods like the  Christian god 

 Please do show this logic in written format

37 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

We create all sorts of theologies around both types of gods 

Well yes you create them I don't no do I see a need to why do you see a need to?

38 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

That is all we can do with constructed gods, but with real ones we can observe them, learn about them, judge how they connect, and relate to us and to others 

Please show credible documentation that there are real ones to study

39 minutes ago, Mr Walker said:

I do not accept that there is a "standard" construct of gods Certainly the Hebrew version has dominated the world for a millennia or so, But before that and outside it, there have been thousands of different types of gods   Modern human without knoldge of history or anthropology tend not to think about all those other gods, yet   people followed them, and many still do.

Yes obviously you cannot color between the lines either that's 2 in one day that have a hard time understanding what has been outlined as specific attributes of a god

jmccr8

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