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Dreamer screamer

Over the top covid cases, urgent review

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rashore
2 minutes ago, Dreamer screamer said:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=3174465029321118

:whistle:     I knew they were doing this...

Not everyone here on UM has access to FB. What is it?

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Dreamer screamer
5 minutes ago, rashore said:

Not everyone here on UM has access to FB. What is it?

Found it on youtube.   Not sure how old this is, but shows that because you may of had covid and you die from a car crash, DOESN'T mean you died from covid.  That's the point!!

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Dreamer screamer

"Skydiving accident? parachute failed to open?"    :hmm:  "Covid 19!"    

death certificate.png

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rashore
17 minutes ago, Dreamer screamer said:

"Skydiving accident? parachute failed to open?"    :hmm:  "Covid 19!"    

death certificate.png

Nothing in that photo indicates skydiving. 

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Dreamer screamer
33 minutes ago, rashore said:

Nothing in that photo indicates skydiving. 

I was giving an example.   "Covid-19 can be put on the death certificate on clinical balances of probabilities, without testing!"    I was using: "Skydiving accident? parachute failed to open?"    :hmm:  "Covid 19!"   the idea in the paperwork, meaning; that if a coroner had someone come in all mashed up and a parachute is wrapped around the body, your first thoughts are going to assume Covid - 19, and because the coroner doesn't have to test but go on probabiliity, this means they can just put Covid-19 on the death certificate.   This is what we have been seeing in ths papers.    How many people that have died of suppose covid reported when the coroner can just put covid - 19 for any death.     That's the point, how do we know for sure without testing???   And when there is a test, it still doesn't prove covid-19 as the test can't test for covid-19. 

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Ozymandias
1 hour ago, Dreamer screamer said:

Found it on youtube.   Not sure how old this is, but shows that because you may of had covid and you die from a car crash, DOESN'T mean you died from covid.  That's the point!!

Your video is six months old!!! This happened in July last year. I do not think anything came of it. Covid deaths today are twice the 45,000 claimed in this Sky News video clip. Today it the death toll is 93,000.

Edited by Ozymandias
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Grey Area
6 minutes ago, Dreamer screamer said:

I was giving an example.   "Covid-19 can be put on the death certificate on clinical balances of probabilities, without testing!"    I was using: "Skydiving accident? parachute failed to open?"    :hmm:  "Covid 19!"   the idea in the paperwork, meaning; that if a coroner had someone come in all mashed up and a parachute is wrapped around the body, your first thoughts are going to assume Covid - 19, and because the coroner doesn't have to test but go on probabiliity, this means they can just put Covid-19 on the death certificate.   This is what we have been seeing in ths papers.    How many people that have died of suppose covid reported when the coroner can just put covid - 19 for any death.     That's the point, how do we know for sure without testing???   And when there is a test, it still doesn't prove covid-19 as the test can't test for covid-19. 

You have to put it into context, and understand how coroners work.

The Coroner will certify a death usually with a cause of death provided by a doctor.  If the Coroner agrees with this they will issue the death certificate.  If the cause of death is unknown the coroner will order a post-mortem examination which will reveal cause of death.

In the case of the latter the post-mortem should reveal the signs of COVID infection so no formal test required, in the former, the clinician will have made the call based on the evidence provided.

Is it possible some deaths may have been falsely labelled COVID, sure I guess so, is it enough to seriously reduce the actual COVID death toll?  I would suggest not.

Now stop it, take a step back, we are almost year in and it’s only just started to hit the fan, you are not helping.

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Dreamer screamer
1 hour ago, Dreamer screamer said:

 

death certificate.png

The Coroner will certify a death usually with a cause of death provided by a doctor.  If the Coroner agrees with this they will issue the death certificate.  If the cause of death is unknown the coroner will order a post-mortem examination which will reveal cause of death.

Not what it states on registering a death though.   Post mortem??????????????????????  1000's of deaths?????????????????? post  mortems????  :unsure2:   

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jmccr8
1 hour ago, Dreamer screamer said:

I was giving an example.   "Covid-19 can be put on the death certificate on clinical balances of probabilities, without testing!"    I was using: "Skydiving accident? parachute failed to open?"    :hmm:  "Covid 19!"   the idea in the paperwork, meaning; that if a coroner had someone come in all mashed up and a parachute is wrapped around the body, your first thoughts are going to assume Covid - 19, and because the coroner doesn't have to test but go on probabiliity, this means they can just put Covid-19 on the death certificate.   This is what we have been seeing in ths papers.    How many people that have died of suppose covid reported when the coroner can just put covid - 19 for any death.     That's the point, how do we know for sure without testing???   And when there is a test, it still doesn't prove covid-19 as the test can't test for covid-19. 

Hi Dreamer

Obviously the death certificate is not for the example you gave of skydiving so that is misleading .

jmccr8

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Dreamer screamer
15 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Dreamer

Obviously the death certificate is not for the example you gave of skydiving so that is misleading .

jmccr8

A death certificate is either a legal document issued by a medical practitioner which states when a person died, or a document issued by a government civil registration office, that declares the date, location and cause of a person's death, as entered in an official register of deaths.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_certificate

I was using sky diving as an example where if that PERSON did die through some error and splats on the floor, the coroner can just put covid - 19 on the death certifcate with no testing, but can pressume the PERSON died from covid-19 if they visitied the hospital months before.     That is what the picture with the words are stating.     The corporation can make changes to principles as with covid - 19 arrival.  The  Government can ammend the principles/policy to what orders it wants and the PERSON if they want to keep their jobs have to obey.     Why we are seeing whistleblowers sneek documents out, going on to shows that are not mainstream to explain what the new policy is wanting off of them.   If PERSON is not happy with new policy they simply can't just walk out of their jobs for fear of needing that job to survive.  Why we are seeing so many people just going along with policy begrudgingly.  After all corporations do what they want until one looks deeper into who or what runs the show.

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jmccr8
37 minutes ago, Dreamer screamer said:

A death certificate is either a legal document issued by a medical practitioner which states when a person died, or a document issued by a government civil registration office, that declares the date, location and cause of a person's death, as entered in an official register of deaths.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_certificate

I was using sky diving as an example where if that PERSON did die through some error and splats on the floor, the coroner can just put covid - 19 on the death certifcate with no testing, but can pressume the PERSON died from covid-19 if they visitied the hospital months before.     That is what the picture with the words are stating.     The corporation can make changes to principles as with covid - 19 arrival.  The  Government can ammend the principles/policy to what orders it wants and the PERSON if they want to keep their jobs have to obey.     Why we are seeing whistleblowers sneek documents out, going on to shows that are not mainstream to explain what the new policy is wanting off of them.   If PERSON is not happy with new policy they simply can't just walk out of their jobs for fear of needing that job to survive.  Why we are seeing so many people just going along with policy begrudgingly.  After all corporations do what they want until one looks deeper into who or what runs the show.

Hi Dreamer

You deliberately attempted to mislead through the phrasing of your post which personally I see as dishonest.

jmccr8

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Dreamer screamer
37 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

Hi Dreamer

You deliberately attempted to mislead through the phrasing of your post which personally I see as dishonest.

jmccr8

What is dishonest about my post?   :unsure2:   Why are you assuming this skydiver exists?   I was using it as an example!!     

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jmccr8
13 minutes ago, Dreamer screamer said:

What is dishonest about my post?   :unsure2:   Why are you assuming this skydiver exists?   I was using it as an example!!     

Hi Dreamer

If I showed an xray of a brain with a tumor and indicated a skydiver then the relationship is made you were deliberately misleading. End of convo

jmccr8

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Grey Area
7 hours ago, Dreamer screamer said:

Not what it states on registering a death though.   Post mortem??????????????????????  1000's of deaths?????????????????? post  mortems????  :unsure2: 

No not on thousands of deaths, read what I wrote, why would thousands of deaths be unknown?

In the absolute vast majority of cases death will be declared by a clinician in a hospital and the cause will be understood and well documented.  There would only be a very small number requiring investigation.

You are grossly misunderstanding the process and process and by doing so doing the people who work in the field a great disservice.

The suggestion that a coroner faced with the victim of a parachute accident, or similar would ignore the evidence and just apply a COVID cause of death is ridiculous, and would be a falsification.  I don’t know but am guessing falsifying an official document would be criminal, and likely be malpractice.

What that line you pointed out says is that COVID can be put down as the cause of death if the evidence points to it without the need to further delay the process further.

This is important for obvious reasons, reasons you pointed out yourself, with thousands of deaths every day we need to not have a backlog of bodies piling up.

I am guessing you are quite young, and while I  try not to belittle people by their age, you will discover that life is a lot less black and white as you think, there is a lot more nuance than you might expect.

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keithisco

The rules are simple: If a person dies WITH covid (i.e. tested Positive for Covid-19 in the previous 28 days) then that death is recorded as a Covid-19 death AS WELL as any other contributing cause (one chap fell off a ladder and broke his neck but had also tested positive for Covid-19 within the 4 week period). Did he die from Covid-19? NO, he died WITH Covid-19. This is why UK stats give the false impression that Covid-19 deaths are much higher than other countries.

To get an accurate picture you need to remove all other deaths unrelated to the virus to know how many people actually died FROM Covid-19 infection.

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Setton
9 hours ago, Dreamer screamer said:

I was giving an example.   "Covid-19 can be put on the death certificate on clinical balances of probabilities, without testing!"    I was using: "Skydiving accident? parachute failed to open?"    :hmm:  "Covid 19!"   

1. Your video is 6 months out of date. Which is an improvement.

2. That would not be on balance of probabilities.

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Setton
5 minutes ago, keithisco said:

The rules are simple: If a person dies WITH covid (i.e. tested Positive for Covid-19 in the previous 28 days) then that death is recorded as a Covid-19 death AS WELL as any other contributing cause (one chap fell off a ladder and broke his neck but had also tested positive for Covid-19 within the 4 week period). Did he die from Covid-19? NO, he died WITH Covid-19. This is why UK stats give the false impression that Covid-19 deaths are much higher than other countries.

To get an accurate picture you need to remove all other deaths unrelated to the virus to know how many people actually died FROM Covid-19 infection.

Which is why excess deaths is a much better measure. But that's only useful after a long period. 

We had 71,000 excess deaths in 2020.

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RoofGardener
41 minutes ago, Setton said:

Which is why excess deaths is a much better measure. But that's only useful after a long period. 

We had 71,000 excess deaths in 2020.

Hmmm.. apparently we had 530,841 total deaths in 2019 - 2020 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregistrationsummarytables/2019

That's for England and Wales.

As of 13th November 2020, we had 529,928 deaths in England and Wales.   https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/totaldeathsin2019and2020sofarintheuk

OK, that is about 6 weeks short of the full year. So multiplying those figures by 1+(6/52), we get about 582,900 deaths. 

So on the fact of it, that means that Covid-19 is responsible for 582900 - 530841 = 52,079 deaths. This is about four times the number of deaths caused by 'flu each year. 

 

Edited by RoofGardener

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Setton
30 minutes ago, RoofGardener said:

Hmmm.. apparently we had 530,841 total deaths in 2019 - 2020 https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregistrationsummarytables/2019

That's for England and Wales.

As of 13th November 2020, we had 529,928 deaths in England and Wales.   https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/totaldeathsin2019and2020sofarintheuk

OK, that is about 6 weeks short of the full year. So multiplying those figures by 1+(6/52), we get about 582,900 deaths. 

So on the fact of it, that means that Covid-19 is responsible for 582900 - 530841 = 52,079 deaths. This is about four times the number of deaths caused by 'flu each year. 

 

You can't just compare one year to one other year.

That is not a representative sample. Excess deaths are calculated by comparing one year to the 5 year average.

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Saru

Given that this is based on a video/story that's over 6 months old, there's little point keeping this going.

Closed.

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