English don't care about the United Kingdom

[Eldorado]

The former Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne believes the majority of the English public “will not care” if Northern Ireland leaves the UK for a united Ireland.

Mr Osborne - a former Conservative MP - said that by “unleashing” English nationalism, Brexit has made the future of the UK the central political issue of the coming decade.

Full monty at the Belfast Telegraph: Link

Northern Ireland is already heading for the exit door. By remaining in the EU single market, it is for all economic intents and purposes now slowly becoming part of a united Ireland. Its prosperity now depends on its relationship with Dublin (and Brussels), not London. The politics will follow.  

Northern Irish unionists always feared the mainland was not sufficiently committed to their cause. Now their short-sighted support for Brexit (and unbelievably stupid decision to torpedo Theresa May’s deal that avoided separate Irish arrangements) has made those fears a reality.

It pains me to report that most here and abroad will not care.

Full article at the Evening Standard: Link

[RAyMO]

26 minutes ago, seanjo said:

True, most people in England would be glad to see a united Ireland. Has to be done democratically though.

Except in unusual situations like May's government, the MPs of NI have no real power in the UK parliament. 

Brexit has demonstrated that the UK parliament holds no regard for the wishes of the electorate of NI or Scotland, both should wake up to that reality. 

NI Unionists will still cling to the Union - it was the very reason for the creation of Unionist political parties such as the DUP and the Ulster Unionist Party - I t will be very hard for them to change course. 

They fear becoming an irrelevance in a United Ireland - where their political views would become a minority view  in a nationalist parliament. But as I said, in normal circumstances their view doesn't really hold much sway in the UK. 

IMO the Unionists should heed Osborne's words - but rather than hide under the skirts of England - an England that doesn't want them - they should start to formulate a strategy whereby they can use the creation of United Ireland to maximise their relevance going forward, and to facilitate a peaceful and democratic change. 

If I was a Unionist, I would be looking at crafting a offer of a 'federal' United Ireland whereby Northern Ireland could retain as much autonomy as possible, and through which Unionist politicians could maintain as much influence in the government of NI as it currently enjoys via the NI Assembly. 

[Dreamer screamer]

Give Ireland back to the Irish.  Give Britain back to the English.   Give wales back to the welsh.  Give Israel back to Palestine.   Give money back to the people!

[spud the mackem]

If the Northern Irish people wanted to remain part of the U.K. as they have been for a very long time , why did they vote to stay in the E.U. and be subject to E.U. rules ,dictated by an E.U. commission , and having a small ,or no say in their Countries future . They have never wanted to be united with Eire ,  We the British do care what happens to them and would like them to stay within the U.K. but their political parties disagree  so good luck to them . 

[stevewinn]

without the Leave votes from the voters in N.I, Scotland and Wales the UK would have remained in the EU.

The difference between Leave and Remain 1,269.501.

N.I, Scotland & Welsh Leave votes (combined) 2,222.336.

N.I, Scottish & Welsh votes clearly deciding the future of the United Kingdom and apparently they have no say on the direction of the Union.

 

 

 

[Essan]

Any Scots who support a united Eire should think twice.   Because by the same argument, there should be a united Britain (aka Albion/Alba)

Personally I agree Eire shoud be one country, as should Britain.  Alba gu brath/Prydain am byth!

[RAyMO]

35 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

without the Leave votes from the voters in N.I, Scotland and Wales the UK would have remained in the EU.

That's a false argument as NI and Scotland both returned a net negative numbers to the Brexit referendum. i.e. the total vote returned from NI and Scotland in effect reduced the margin of victory for Brexit. 

Your argument can only hold if you ignore the number of votes against Brexit in both Scotland and NI. Which is what in fact has happened. 

Edited January 22, 2021 by RAyMO

[stevewinn]

4 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

That's a false argument as NI and Scotland both returned a net negative numbers to the Brexit referendum. i.e. the total vote returned from NI and Scotland in effect reduced the margin of victory for Brexit. 

Its not a false argument, one person one vote across the entire Kingdom.

[RAyMO]

Just now, stevewinn said:

Its not a false argument, one person one vote across the entire Kingdom.

It is a false argument based on countries within the UK, which is what we are discussing here - countries within the UK and Osbornes' view of the likelihood of a split. This is not a debate on the Brexit vote but on the political ramifications of the implementation of Brexit. 

Even if the majority in NI had voted for Brexit we would still find ourselves here based on Johnson's WA. Due to Brexit there is an economic border in the Irish sea and an Ireland wide economy that in NI differs from the rest of the UK. 

 

[RAyMO]

And Osbornes article wasn't just about Northern Ireland. In fact it was only a small part - basically Ireland will be united, the people of England couldn't care less, the Unionists who supported Brexit and specifically Johnson's Brexit have no one to blame but themselves. 

He talked a lot more about Scotland, and his remedy for keeping Scotland inn the Union - don't give them a referendum - so much for British democracy then.  

Edited January 22, 2021 by RAyMO

[RAyMO]

2 minutes ago, seanjo said:

That's a false argument the referendum was a UK referendum not a regional referendum. Something the Scottish voted to keep in 2014. Something the Northern Irish voted to keep a number of years back. 

 

when 

Besides times change - Demographics change

Edited January 22, 2021 by RAyMO

[stevewinn]

11 minutes ago, Essan said:

Any Scots who support a united Eire should think twice.   Because by the same argument, there should be a united Britain (aka Albion/Alba)

Personally I agree Eire shoud be one country, as should Britain.  Alba gu brath/Prydain am byth!

The only united Ireland they'll see is one under the flag that flutters on the left below my name.

Things are about to turn from bad to worse for RoI, becoming 5th largest contributor to the eu budget, and in addition to that putting €18bn into the EU's recovery fund while receiving just €900million back from the fund. - if people don't think thats bad, 30% of Ireland's GDP growth comes from American tech giant Apple funnelling its profits through the country and the EU demands are based on proportion of GDP.  -  eu fishing vessels moving from UK waters to theirs. Ireland joined the EU because the UK did, their attempt to remain a member will be akin to Scot's Darian scheme, a failed trade adventure which resulted in economic disaster and ultimately their admittance to the United Kingdom.

[RAyMO]

1 minute ago, stevewinn said:

The only united Ireland they'll see is one under the flag that flutters on the left below my name.

Things are about to turn from bad to worse for RoI, becoming 5th largest contributor to the eu budget, and in addition to that putting €18bn into the EU's recovery fund while receiving just €900million back from the fund. - if people don't think thats bad, 30% of Ireland's GDP growth comes from American tech giant Apple funnelling its profits through the country and the EU demands are based on proportion of GDP.  -  eu fishing vessels moving from UK waters to theirs. Ireland joined the EU because the UK did, their attempt to remain a member will be akin to Scot's Darian scheme, a failed trade adventure which resulted in economic disaster and ultimately their admittance to the United Kingdom.

did you read Osbornes article - his argument is the the UK couldn't care less if NI left the UK. Not that the UK will expand to keep it and ireland. 

[RAyMO]

40 minutes ago, seanjo said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Northern_Ireland_Good_Friday_Agreement_referendum

Sorry Seanjo that was not a referendum on a United Ireland - It was a referendum on a political agreement which included amongst other things the creation of an assembly and the right (which Scotland doesn't apparently have) for referendum on a United Ireland to be held should the majority in NI so wish. It also reaffirmed the place of NI in the UK unless a majority via referendum said otherwise. 

There was a poll in 1973 which showed 98.9% support for a remaining in the UK. However that poll was boycotted by nationalists - some Unionist pen must have slipped to avoid the 100% result. 

Edited January 22, 2021 by RAyMO

[stevewinn]

15 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

did you read Osbornes article - his argument is the the UK couldn't care less if NI left the UK. Not that the UK will expand to keep it and ireland. 

George Osborne former failed chancellor pro-eu remainer who couldn't handle the kicking he got from the people having lost the referendum, so became the editor of the remain news paper the evening standard to spread his anti-brexit propaganda. why are you even listening to him. his record and politics goes before him.

N.I can hold a referendum to leave the UK at any time as written into the agreement, England will hold no such referendum so Osborne's claims will never be tested and the British population in N.I have no desire to leave the UK. if anything, its boom time for N.I. and things will look very different within 4 years for the Island of Ireland.

 

Edited January 22, 2021 by stevewinn

[RAyMO]

17 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

George Osborne former failed chancellor pro-eu remainer who couldn't handle the kicking he got from the people having lost the referendum, so became the editor of the remain news paper the evening standard to spread his anti-brexit propaganda. why are you even listening to him. his record and politics goes before him.

N.I can hold a referendum to leave the UK at any time as written into the agreement, England will hold no such referendum so Osborne's will never be tested and the British population in N.I have no desire to leave the UK. if anything, its boom time for N.I. and things will look very different within 4 years for the Island of Ireland.

 

As some one who lives here, I will totally and respectfully disagree. Upset with the Union has been growing since Brexit - the genie is out of the bottle.

2013 polls remain in UK + 48%

2020 poll remain in UK +/- 1% (one outliner had it a +23 admittedly - from Liverpool university ironically ) 

But it is not just polls I speak to people who have never supported a UI and now do, businesses are looking South for suppliers, 

Demographics are for a UI - by next year, nationalists will be the biggest 'voting' community in NI for the first time since the states creation. What was the cry of the DUP for years - "the will of the greater number"

Edited January 22, 2021 by RAyMO

[stevewinn]

6 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

As some one who lives here, I will totally and respectfully disagree. Upset with the Union has been growing since Brexit - the genie is out of the bottle.

2013 polls remain in UK + 48%

2020 poll remain in UK +/- 1% (one outliner had it a +23 admittedly) 

But it is not just polls I speak to people who have never supported a UI and now do, businesses are looking South for suppliers, 

Demographics are for a UI - by next year, nationalists will be the biggest community in NI for the first time since the states creation. What was the cry of the DUP for years - "the will of the greater number"

You believe George Osborne and still after all that's happened you still believe in polls. c'mon, as for you living over there, counts for nothing we had remainers who live over here and convinced themselves they were surrounded by like minded individuals just as you've convinced yourself. remember how that turned out. poor souls come the day after the referendum they couldn't believe it, and still cant. how we laugh now. 

 

 

[RAyMO]

9 minutes ago, stevewinn said:

You believe George Osborne

believing him is not the point. At least not in so far as whether there is going to be a UI or not. 

What is the point that here is a former Chancellor of the Exchequer, telling the NI unionists who look to England as the motherland, that the English really don't give a toss about them - unrequited love.

[Duke Wellington]

10 hours ago, Eldorado said:

The former Chancellor of the Exchequer George Osborne believes the majority of the English public “will not care” if Northern Ireland leaves the UK for a united Ireland.

Mr Osborne - a former Conservative MP - said that by “unleashing” English nationalism, Brexit has made the future of the UK the central political issue of the coming decade.

Full monty at the Belfast Telegraph: Link

Northern Ireland is already heading for the exit door. By remaining in the EU single market, it is for all economic intents and purposes now slowly becoming part of a united Ireland. Its prosperity now depends on its relationship with Dublin (and Brussels), not London. The politics will follow.  

Northern Irish unionists always feared the mainland was not sufficiently committed to their cause. Now their short-sighted support for Brexit (and unbelievably stupid decision to torpedo Theresa May’s deal that avoided separate Irish arrangements) has made those fears a reality.

It pains me to report that most here and abroad will not care.

Full article at the Evening Standard: Link

You do know he has Irish ancestors?

[RAyMO]

2 minutes ago, Cookie Monster said:

You do know he has Irish ancestors?

I on behalf of the The Irish deny that slanderous accusation  - I hope

Edited January 22, 2021 by RAyMO

[stevewinn]

11 minutes ago, RAyMO said:

believing him is not the point. At least not in so far as whether there is going to be a UI or not. 

What is the point that here is a former Chancellor of the Exchequer, telling the NI unionists who look to England as the motherland, that the English really don't give a toss about them - unrequited love.

and im sure the N.I population listen to him and believe him. NOT.

[Eldorado]

Related...

Arlene Foster dismissed support for an Irish unity referendum last night as Northern Ireland's future came under the spotlight amid Brexit fallout that has cleared supermarket shelves of food.

The DUP leader insisted the country wanted to remain part of the UK as she was asked whether it needed to prepare for a vote on becoming part of the Republic within a decade.

The exchange on the BBC's Question Time came amid a furious backlash against the Brexit deal agreed by Boris Johnson's Government.

UK Mail

[stevewinn]

looks like the EU doesn't like Ireland.

On the Island of Ireland.

Northern Ireland - Union of the United Kingdom. population vaccinated. 8.79%

Rep of Ireland - Union EU. highest Covid cases in the WORLD. population vaccinated. 2.47%

and........

 

[Duke Wellington]

I think the lesson of this debate is that each politician or media outlet promotes what it wants to see happen.

As someone who is half Irish (one parent from NI + one parent from England) then I know in NI there isn`t the support for a Unified Ireland. The protestant population (those are the ones with some English ancestors back from the days of plantations) are pro-England and pro-UK.

Its within the Catholic nationalist population there are calls for a Unified Ireland. Catholics only make up 40% of the population and some of them like being in the UK too.

[Duke Wellington]

17 hours ago, RAyMO said:

I on behalf of the The Irish deny that slanderous accusation  - I hope

Its okay, he was quite unpopular here.

Why on Earth a history graduate whose family runs a furniture store would be seen as an expert on economics (when he clearly wasn`t) is beyond me. And thats coming from a Tory too.

He had no concept of increasing demand following the 2008 banking crises, actually stated you dont spend your way out of a recession (which should have seen his instant dismissal because you do and thats how you increase demand), and promptly implemented a deep austerity during a recession rather than waiting until we need when into a boom (which is when spending is supposed to be cut).

All while speaking positively about the EU (our agreements dictated that we must by law) while hiding how the EU he idolises forces its member states to keep their debts down. Using only one approach, that being austerity. The EU knackered itself with its own legislation. The only Western Country to correctly manage their economy properly post-2008 was the USA.

It ramped that spending up with no austerity. That has continued under coronavirus. It should also remain in place until the USA next enters a boom. Regardless of whether its national debt reaches $30 trillion or more.